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PAs... Please hold off on the 8k textures...

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  • MalandarMalandar Posts: 776
    nonesuch00 said:

    Well, smaller texture set sizes is just a bandaid on the problem. For the 3D hobby, even entry level video cards need 32GB RAM; so maybe in 3 years at the best if the video game manufacturers really start using these ray tracers and using lots of video RAM.

    My system has an RTX2060 Super with 8 gigs of VRAM and 64 gigs of ram.

  • GalaxyGalaxy Posts: 562

    If the scene is large enough then I usually use props or delete objects which are not in front of camera.  And yes 8k textures often slow down system, I usually use Scene Optimizer to reduce, sometimes smooth option gives better resize quality.

  • WendyLuvsCatzWendyLuvsCatz Posts: 40,083

    grabbing Scene Optimizer (and maybe Decimator too) or manually reducing maps is the only answer because the ones with bottomless purses just keep demanding more and more devil 

    no sign of that ending wink

    I am thrilled they added Filament to the beta now as I can actually render on my older computer without a graphics card with it so that's an option too

  • PerttiAPerttiA Posts: 10,024
    Galaxy said:

    If the scene is large enough then I usually use props or delete objects which are not in front of camera.  And yes 8k textures often slow down system, I usually use Scene Optimizer to reduce, sometimes smooth option gives better resize quality.

    Reducing the texture resolution is not really THE problem and you don't need Scene Optimizer for doing it - I can tell Irfanview to reduce the resolution and/or color depth for 1000+ texture files in a batch that takes maybe a minute or two to complete or I can pick textures/maps based on their resolution/color depth to process, but when the portion of the texture that's actually used, is just 4-10% of the whole area, you should have a tool to cut out the junk and remap the UV.

  • TheKDTheKD Posts: 2,711

    I prefer large maps, the larger the better. If they are too large, I have the tools to easily and quickly reduce them. That's just my opinion though.

  • WendyLuvsCatzWendyLuvsCatz Posts: 40,083
    PerttiA said:
    Galaxy said:

    If the scene is large enough then I usually use props or delete objects which are not in front of camera.  And yes 8k textures often slow down system, I usually use Scene Optimizer to reduce, sometimes smooth option gives better resize quality.

    Reducing the texture resolution is not really THE problem and you don't need Scene Optimizer for doing it - I can tell Irfanview to reduce the resolution and/or color depth for 1000+ texture files in a batch that takes maybe a minute or two to complete or I can pick textures/maps based on their resolution/color depth to process, but when the portion of the texture that's actually used, is just 4-10% of the whole area, you should have a tool to cut out the junk and remap the UV.

    I have

    Ultimate Unwrap 3D (and Gimp)

    I use it to weld legacy stuff for Dforce too without destroying UV mapping

    and repaint textures 

    Blender can do this too if you want a free method

  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 108,068

    The 8K maps are going to be downsampled anyway for the Viewport, Iray will compress rather than downsample. If your system is labouring with the a non-Iray preview mode it probably isn't the maps, even in Iray I'm not sure the maps can be held solely responsible for any performance issues..

  • TheKDTheKD Posts: 2,711
    edited October 2020
    PerttiA said:

    Reducing the texture resolution is not really THE problem and you don't need Scene Optimizer for doing it - I can tell Irfanview to reduce the resolution and/or color depth for 1000+ texture files in a batch that takes maybe a minute or two to complete or I can pick textures/maps based on their resolution/color depth to process, but when the portion of the texture that's actually used, is just 4-10% of the whole area, you should have a tool to cut out the junk and remap the UV.

    That would be a problem with VRAM though. Having one set of 4k maps for many objects is easier on the vram, than having a bunch of smaller sets. If you go with the bare minimum, thats, albedo, roughness and normal maps. Having 3 4k maps to texture 10 things is easier on the vram, than having 30 smaller maps.

     

    For larger areas like a ground, you either need to use one large map, or tile a smaller map. I don't know if it's just my eye is good at picking out patterns, but tiling on anything other than tiles always looks bad to me. I can pick up the repeating pattern usually.

    Post edited by TheKD on
  • GalaxyGalaxy Posts: 562
    WendyLuvsCatz said:
    PerttiA said:
    Galaxy said:

    If the scene is large enough then I usually use props or delete objects which are not in front of camera.  And yes 8k textures often slow down system, I usually use Scene Optimizer to reduce, sometimes smooth option gives better resize quality.

    Reducing the texture resolution is not really THE problem and you don't need Scene Optimizer for doing it - I can tell Irfanview to reduce the resolution and/or color depth for 1000+ texture files in a batch that takes maybe a minute or two to complete or I can pick textures/maps based on their resolution/color depth to process, but when the portion of the texture that's actually used, is just 4-10% of the whole area, you should have a tool to cut out the junk and remap the UV.

    I have

    Ultimate Unwrap 3D (and Gimp)

    I use it to weld legacy stuff for Dforce too without destroying UV mapping

    and repaint textures 

    Blender can do this too if you want a free method

    This method require time and patient both, too much extra work to get final result. I guess a large scene will require days.

  • PaintboxPaintbox Posts: 1,633
    edited October 2020
    Phoenix1966 said:

    Ten years ago, I struggled with the limitations of my hardware. I hid unseen bodyparts, deleted whatever wasn't immediately in view, etc., used low resolution figures in the background and created my own billboards all just to get a render finished. And here we are again. I feel that this is always going to be the status quo. That's why there are products like Scene Optimizer,  Camera View Optimizer, and Resource Saver Shader Collection.

    Bingo.

    In ten years people going to complain about that one RealityTech product not working on their Nvidia 10090GTX with 1Tb. We don't need to see those pores in microscopic detail PA, tone it down!

    Post edited by Paintbox on
  • MalandarMalandar Posts: 776
    Richard Haseltine said:

    The 8K maps are going to be downsampled anyway for the Viewport, Iray will compress rather than downsample. If your system is labouring with the a non-Iray preview mode it probably isn't the maps, even in Iray I'm not sure the maps can be held solely responsible for any performance issues..

    it's not my system, I don't have trouble with anything else I have bought. andf I have bought a LOT over the years.

  • PerttiAPerttiA Posts: 10,024
    TheKD said:
    PerttiA said:

    Reducing the texture resolution is not really THE problem and you don't need Scene Optimizer for doing it - I can tell Irfanview to reduce the resolution and/or color depth for 1000+ texture files in a batch that takes maybe a minute or two to complete or I can pick textures/maps based on their resolution/color depth to process, but when the portion of the texture that's actually used, is just 4-10% of the whole area, you should have a tool to cut out the junk and remap the UV.

    That would be a problem with VRAM though. Having one set of 4k maps for many objects is easier on the vram, than having a bunch of smaller sets. If you go with the bare minimum, thats, albedo, roughness and normal maps. Having 3 4k maps to texture 10 things is easier on the vram, than having 30 smaller maps. 

    The problem (which seems to escalate) is not having three 4k maps instead of thirty smaller maps, but having thirty 8k maps without any improvement on the level of detail since only a small portion of the 8k texture/map is actually used - As in the sample attached, only the area marked "UV placement" is used anywhere in the model and the problem escalates with having a number of maps for whatever channels at the same resolution and at worse with the same color depth.

    UV.jpg
    240 x 240 - 8K
  • PerttiAPerttiA Posts: 10,024
    WendyLuvsCatz said:
    PerttiA said:
    Galaxy said:

    If the scene is large enough then I usually use props or delete objects which are not in front of camera.  And yes 8k textures often slow down system, I usually use Scene Optimizer to reduce, sometimes smooth option gives better resize quality.

    Reducing the texture resolution is not really THE problem and you don't need Scene Optimizer for doing it - I can tell Irfanview to reduce the resolution and/or color depth for 1000+ texture files in a batch that takes maybe a minute or two to complete or I can pick textures/maps based on their resolution/color depth to process, but when the portion of the texture that's actually used, is just 4-10% of the whole area, you should have a tool to cut out the junk and remap the UV.

    I have

    Ultimate Unwrap 3D (and Gimp)

    I use it to weld legacy stuff for Dforce too without destroying UV mapping

    and repaint textures 

    Blender can do this too if you want a free method

    I have been looking for a way to do this in Blender, but so far without success. My Blender experience has so far been about making morphs.

    I could use a hint pointing to right direction on the web.

  • WendyLuvsCatzWendyLuvsCatz Posts: 40,083
    PerttiA said:
    WendyLuvsCatz said:
    PerttiA said:
    Galaxy said:

    If the scene is large enough then I usually use props or delete objects which are not in front of camera.  And yes 8k textures often slow down system, I usually use Scene Optimizer to reduce, sometimes smooth option gives better resize quality.

    Reducing the texture resolution is not really THE problem and you don't need Scene Optimizer for doing it - I can tell Irfanview to reduce the resolution and/or color depth for 1000+ texture files in a batch that takes maybe a minute or two to complete or I can pick textures/maps based on their resolution/color depth to process, but when the portion of the texture that's actually used, is just 4-10% of the whole area, you should have a tool to cut out the junk and remap the UV.

    I have

    Ultimate Unwrap 3D (and Gimp)

    I use it to weld legacy stuff for Dforce too without destroying UV mapping

    and repaint textures 

    Blender can do this too if you want a free method

    I have been looking for a way to do this in Blender, but so far without success. My Blender experience has so far been about making morphs.

    I could use a hint pointing to right direction on the web.

    I don't use Blender though

    I use UUW3D

    Blender too hard for me too, just that it is free blush

    there are other programs that do UV mapping too, it would be a matter of enlarging that island in the UV space and the section of texture too and matching them

  • TheKDTheKD Posts: 2,711
    edited October 2020
    PerttiA said:

    The problem (which seems to escalate) is not having three 4k maps instead of thirty smaller maps, but having thirty 8k maps without any improvement on the level of detail since only a small portion of the 8k texture/map is actually used - As in the sample attached, only the area marked "UV placement" is used anywhere in the model and the problem escalates with having a number of maps for whatever channels at the same resolution and at worse with the same color depth.

    If that is the only thing using that map, it is a problem. When I see something like that, it's usually more like this. Different items are UV mapped in different areas, it's not wasted space. You only see it like wasted space, until you see all the items UV placement drawing from that shader. It only has to load the maps once, it's lighter on the vram than having to open a bunch of smaller maps. I don't know if that's the case with this set, I haven't examined it.

     

     

    0eac5297f1d7216d10cd2a70201382.jpg
    240 x 240 - 33K
    Post edited by TheKD on
  • nicsttnicstt Posts: 11,715
    melissastjames said:

    Are you sure it's the textures that are causing the problem and not the massive amount of geometry loaded into the scene? How many 8k textures are there included? The product description doesn't give a count, so could only be one (and likely is...the ground I'm guessing). 8k textures are bigger, but an 8k .jpg isn't *that* much larger in mb than a 4k .jpg. I've been rolling with a mixture of 4k and 8k textures in gaming for years (I mod games like Skyrim, etc). But for Daz, I've noticed quite a few sets include 8k ground textures so as to help with tiling and detail repetition. 

    It's also misleading terminology so I can see why there is a lot of confusion (it happens in the game modding scene too), but you don't need an 8k monitor to make use of an 8k texture. An "8k texture" just means that the texture is 8192 pixels on at least one side. 

    if it isn't 8k x 8k then it can't be considered 8k

    As an example 8192 x 1024 is the equivalent of 2 x 2k textures, no not 4k.

  • WendyLuvsCatzWendyLuvsCatz Posts: 40,083
    Galaxy said:
    WendyLuvsCatz said:
    PerttiA said:
    Galaxy said:

    If the scene is large enough then I usually use props or delete objects which are not in front of camera.  And yes 8k textures often slow down system, I usually use Scene Optimizer to reduce, sometimes smooth option gives better resize quality.

    Reducing the texture resolution is not really THE problem and you don't need Scene Optimizer for doing it - I can tell Irfanview to reduce the resolution and/or color depth for 1000+ texture files in a batch that takes maybe a minute or two to complete or I can pick textures/maps based on their resolution/color depth to process, but when the portion of the texture that's actually used, is just 4-10% of the whole area, you should have a tool to cut out the junk and remap the UV.

    I have

    Ultimate Unwrap 3D (and Gimp)

    I use it to weld legacy stuff for Dforce too without destroying UV mapping

    and repaint textures 

    Blender can do this too if you want a free method

    This method require time and patient both, too much extra work to get final result. I guess a large scene will require days.

     

    Galaxy said:
    WendyLuvsCatz said:
    PerttiA said:
    Galaxy said:

    If the scene is large enough then I usually use props or delete objects which are not in front of camera.  And yes 8k textures often slow down system, I usually use Scene Optimizer to reduce, sometimes smooth option gives better resize quality.

    Reducing the texture resolution is not really THE problem and you don't need Scene Optimizer for doing it - I can tell Irfanview to reduce the resolution and/or color depth for 1000+ texture files in a batch that takes maybe a minute or two to complete or I can pick textures/maps based on their resolution/color depth to process, but when the portion of the texture that's actually used, is just 4-10% of the whole area, you should have a tool to cut out the junk and remap the UV.

    I have

    Ultimate Unwrap 3D (and Gimp)

    I use it to weld legacy stuff for Dforce too without destroying UV mapping

    and repaint textures 

    Blender can do this too if you want a free method

    This method require time and patient both, too much extra work to get final result. I guess a large scene will require days.

    not disagreeing 

    I prefer a one click optimized answer too

    Stonemason manages to do it and have awesome sets

    the PA I am still not naming, his sets do not look particularly standout for all his hundreds yes hundreds! of huge textures, they look OK but much the same reduced significantly too.

  • nonesuch00nonesuch00 Posts: 18,729
    Malandar said:
    nonesuch00 said:

    Well, smaller texture set sizes is just a bandaid on the problem. For the 3D hobby, even entry level video cards need 32GB RAM; so maybe in 3 years at the best if the video game manufacturers really start using these ray tracers and using lots of video RAM.

    My system has an RTX2060 Super with 8 gigs of VRAM and 64 gigs of ram.

    Yes, but the scenes I and that plenty of others make regularly exceed 8GB of video RAM, eg marble from the forums as another example.  

  • PerttiAPerttiA Posts: 10,024
    edited October 2020
    WendyLuvsCatz said:
    PerttiA said:
    WendyLuvsCatz said:
    PerttiA said:
    Galaxy said:

    If the scene is large enough then I usually use props or delete objects which are not in front of camera.  And yes 8k textures often slow down system, I usually use Scene Optimizer to reduce, sometimes smooth option gives better resize quality.

    Reducing the texture resolution is not really THE problem and you don't need Scene Optimizer for doing it - I can tell Irfanview to reduce the resolution and/or color depth for 1000+ texture files in a batch that takes maybe a minute or two to complete or I can pick textures/maps based on their resolution/color depth to process, but when the portion of the texture that's actually used, is just 4-10% of the whole area, you should have a tool to cut out the junk and remap the UV.

    I have

    Ultimate Unwrap 3D (and Gimp)

    I use it to weld legacy stuff for Dforce too without destroying UV mapping

    and repaint textures 

    Blender can do this too if you want a free method

    I have been looking for a way to do this in Blender, but so far without success. My Blender experience has so far been about making morphs.

    I could use a hint pointing to right direction on the web.

    I don't use Blender though

    I use UUW3D

    Blender too hard for me too, just that it is free blush

    there are other programs that do UV mapping too, it would be a matter of enlarging that island in the UV space and the section of texture too and matching them

    The problem in my case, is the number of textures and maps, which is 1000+ (some 200+ separate materials), therefore the solution/tool should be able to crop the textures/maps and scale the UV up without loosing the connection to the relevant part of the geometry.

    Scaling the UV:s is not even that hard, that I could do in Excel and write it back to the "DefaultUV.dsf" in few hours, that's just mathematics, but cropping the 1000+ texture/map files without being able to locate the exact area that should be preserved in each file would take weeks if not a couple of months.

    Post edited by PerttiA on
  • MelissaGTMelissaGT Posts: 2,611
    nicstt said:
    melissastjames said:

    Are you sure it's the textures that are causing the problem and not the massive amount of geometry loaded into the scene? How many 8k textures are there included? The product description doesn't give a count, so could only be one (and likely is...the ground I'm guessing). 8k textures are bigger, but an 8k .jpg isn't *that* much larger in mb than a 4k .jpg. I've been rolling with a mixture of 4k and 8k textures in gaming for years (I mod games like Skyrim, etc). But for Daz, I've noticed quite a few sets include 8k ground textures so as to help with tiling and detail repetition. 

    It's also misleading terminology so I can see why there is a lot of confusion (it happens in the game modding scene too), but you don't need an 8k monitor to make use of an 8k texture. An "8k texture" just means that the texture is 8192 pixels on at least one side. 

    if it isn't 8k x 8k then it can't be considered 8k

    As an example 8192 x 1024 is the equivalent of 2 x 2k textures, no not 4k.

    By that logic, then a "16k" HRDI map that is 16384 x 8192 isn't "16k"...but they are most certainly marketed as such. I think it's a difference of opinions with a non-standardized naming convention. Either way, monitor size really has nil to do with it. 

  • PerttiAPerttiA Posts: 10,024
    TheKD said:
    PerttiA said:

    The problem (which seems to escalate) is not having three 4k maps instead of thirty smaller maps, but having thirty 8k maps without any improvement on the level of detail since only a small portion of the 8k texture/map is actually used - As in the sample attached, only the area marked "UV placement" is used anywhere in the model and the problem escalates with having a number of maps for whatever channels at the same resolution and at worse with the same color depth.

    If that is the only thing using that map, it is a problem. When I see something like that, it's usually more like this. Different items are UV mapped in different areas, it's not wasted space. You only see it like wasted space, until you see all the items UV placement drawing from that shader. It only has to load the maps once, it's lighter on the vram than having to open a bunch of smaller maps. I don't know if that's the case with this set, I haven't examined it.

    Your example looks like a normal UV map and if those islands are using the same texture/maps, there is no problem even with having larger resolution.

    I started looking as I was wondering why the model was straining my above average rig, noticed the size of textures/maps and their color depth and thought... Ok, I'll just take them down a notch, but to my surprice the result was completely un-usable and then I figured what had actually been done and how...

  • MalandarMalandar Posts: 776
    nonesuch00 said:
    Malandar said:
    nonesuch00 said:

    Well, smaller texture set sizes is just a bandaid on the problem. For the 3D hobby, even entry level video cards need 32GB RAM; so maybe in 3 years at the best if the video game manufacturers really start using these ray tracers and using lots of video RAM.

    My system has an RTX2060 Super with 8 gigs of VRAM and 64 gigs of ram.

    Yes, but the scenes I and that plenty of others make regularly exceed 8GB of video RAM, eg marble from the forums as another example.  

     

    Well that's fine, but it sahould not be exceeded by just one item, upon loading the item into  DS. All that does is make an item that only those with way more money than most users can even bother with. Because everyone else will have problems with it and many will likely return it because it soes not work  for them from the get go.

     

  • MalandarMalandar Posts: 776

    Okay, I have made my decision since I obviously don't have the system to use it I am returning it, how do I go about returning something, I don't think I have ever returned anything.

  • MalandarMalandar Posts: 776
    PerttiA said:
    TheKD said:
    PerttiA said:

    The problem (which seems to escalate) is not having three 4k maps instead of thirty smaller maps, but having thirty 8k maps without any improvement on the level of detail since only a small portion of the 8k texture/map is actually used - As in the sample attached, only the area marked "UV placement" is used anywhere in the model and the problem escalates with having a number of maps for whatever channels at the same resolution and at worse with the same color depth.

    If that is the only thing using that map, it is a problem. When I see something like that, it's usually more like this. Different items are UV mapped in different areas, it's not wasted space. You only see it like wasted space, until you see all the items UV placement drawing from that shader. It only has to load the maps once, it's lighter on the vram than having to open a bunch of smaller maps. I don't know if that's the case with this set, I haven't examined it.

    Your example looks like a normal UV map and if those islands are using the same texture/maps, there is no problem even with having larger resolution.

    I started looking as I was wondering why the model was straining my above average rig, noticed the size of textures/maps and their color depth and thought... Ok, I'll just take them down a notch, but to my surprice the result was completely un-usable and then I figured what had actually been done and how...

    Out of curiosity, what are the stats on your system?

  • ChoholeChohole Posts: 33,604
    edited October 2020
    Malandar said:

    Okay, I have made my decision since I obviously don't have the system to use it I am returning it, how do I go about returning something, I don't think I have ever returned anything.

    https://helpdaz.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/115003500163-What-is-Daz3D-s-refund-policy-
     

    Use the Contact Us button (at the bottom of each page)  and file a support ticket, specifying Refund Request from the drop down list.   Make sure you state how you want the refund paid,  either returned to the method used or added to your Store Credit.

    Post edited by Chohole on
  • PerttiAPerttiA Posts: 10,024
    melissastjames said:
    nicstt said:
    melissastjames said:

    Are you sure it's the textures that are causing the problem and not the massive amount of geometry loaded into the scene? How many 8k textures are there included? The product description doesn't give a count, so could only be one (and likely is...the ground I'm guessing). 8k textures are bigger, but an 8k .jpg isn't *that* much larger in mb than a 4k .jpg. I've been rolling with a mixture of 4k and 8k textures in gaming for years (I mod games like Skyrim, etc). But for Daz, I've noticed quite a few sets include 8k ground textures so as to help with tiling and detail repetition. 

    It's also misleading terminology so I can see why there is a lot of confusion (it happens in the game modding scene too), but you don't need an 8k monitor to make use of an 8k texture. An "8k texture" just means that the texture is 8192 pixels on at least one side. 

    if it isn't 8k x 8k then it can't be considered 8k

    As an example 8192 x 1024 is the equivalent of 2 x 2k textures, no not 4k.

    By that logic, then a "16k" HRDI map that is 16384 x 8192 isn't "16k"...but they are most certainly marketed as such. I think it's a difference of opinions with a non-standardized naming convention. Either way, monitor size really has nil to do with it. 

    It isn't, its half 16k, no matter what the marketing [sensored] claim

  • LeanaLeana Posts: 12,758
    Malandar said:

    Okay, I have made my decision since I obviously don't have the system to use it I am returning it, how do I go about returning something, I don't think I have ever returned anything.

    Open a support ticket here: https://helpdaz.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/requests/new

    Use the "sign in" button in the corner so the system recognises you first.

    Select "refund request" as type and send it to Sales support, tell them what order and/or product you want a refund on. Default refund method is store credit, but IIRC you can ask for a refund on your payment method.

  • PerttiAPerttiA Posts: 10,024
    Malandar said:
    PerttiA said:
    TheKD said:
    PerttiA said:

    The problem (which seems to escalate) is not having three 4k maps instead of thirty smaller maps, but having thirty 8k maps without any improvement on the level of detail since only a small portion of the 8k texture/map is actually used - As in the sample attached, only the area marked "UV placement" is used anywhere in the model and the problem escalates with having a number of maps for whatever channels at the same resolution and at worse with the same color depth.

    If that is the only thing using that map, it is a problem. When I see something like that, it's usually more like this. Different items are UV mapped in different areas, it's not wasted space. You only see it like wasted space, until you see all the items UV placement drawing from that shader. It only has to load the maps once, it's lighter on the vram than having to open a bunch of smaller maps. I don't know if that's the case with this set, I haven't examined it.

    Your example looks like a normal UV map and if those islands are using the same texture/maps, there is no problem even with having larger resolution.

    I started looking as I was wondering why the model was straining my above average rig, noticed the size of textures/maps and their color depth and thought... Ok, I'll just take them down a notch, but to my surprice the result was completely un-usable and then I figured what had actually been done and how...

    Out of curiosity, what are the stats on your system?

    MSI X99A SLI Plus+i7-5820K+64GB+RTX2070 Super+around 18TB's of storage space (8TB SSD+10TB HD), running W7 ultimate.

  • WendyLuvsCatzWendyLuvsCatz Posts: 40,083
    Malandar said:

    Okay, I have made my decision since I obviously don't have the system to use it I am returning it, how do I go about returning something, I don't think I have ever returned anything.

    buy something by Stonemason instead yes

    cannot say I have any complaints with his stuff in DAZ studio 

    (yeah going to Carrara or Poser another story but not unique to him)

  • MalandarMalandar Posts: 776
    WendyLuvsCatz said:
    Malandar said:

    Okay, I have made my decision since I obviously don't have the system to use it I am returning it, how do I go about returning something, I don't think I have ever returned anything.

    buy something by Stonemason instead yes

    cannot say I have any complaints with his stuff in DAZ studio 

    (yeah going to Carrara or Poser another story but not unique to him)

    Yeah I already have 54 of his products, never had a bit of trouble with any of his stuff, I probably will get something more from his stuff soon.

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