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Micropressure morphs.

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  • Male-M3diaMale-M3dia Posts: 3,584
    edited March 2018
    bluejaunte said:
    Male-M3dia said:
    bluejaunte said:
    Male-M3dia said:
    bluejaunte said:
    Male-M3dia said:
    bluejaunte said:

    It doesn't need to affect the clothing. It needs to affect the skin around clothing.

    Which HD doesn't do. It's a detail pass based on a low poly morph.

    Again, HD doesn't affect a thing. Low poly morphs is what drives everything in genesis. You don't sculpt a subd morph first on genesis, ever... you do a low poly morph and use that to add your detail.

    https://www.daz3d.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/0/3/03--morphhd-holoflow-daz3d.jpg

    And I just told you how that works. 

    I know how HD morphs work, I use them all the time. Look at the topology in that area and you will see that you are wrong. Clothing compression morphs is one of the few cases where I would NOT start at the base level unless the geometry just happened to be in the right place. I've never used HD for this but my guess would be somewhere level 2 to 4 is where you would have to be to do this.

    I'm telling you how HD works. You are free to send a message to PA support to confirm what I said. A low poly morph is setting up what the HD detail pass is showing, whether it's a regular morph or a projection morph. It's a low poly morph.

    Low poly morph on what? The topology that goes completely counter to where this compression effect needs to be? You're not gonna achieve anything at the lowest level.

    At this point you probably need to take your questions to the PA forum so you understand how HD works. Mods feel free to clean up this discussion.

    Post edited by Male-M3dia on
  • bluejauntebluejaunte Posts: 1,990
    Male-M3dia said:
    bluejaunte said:
    Male-M3dia said:
    bluejaunte said:
    Male-M3dia said:
    bluejaunte said:
    Male-M3dia said:
    bluejaunte said:

    It doesn't need to affect the clothing. It needs to affect the skin around clothing.

    Which HD doesn't do. It's a detail pass based on a low poly morph.

    Again, HD doesn't affect a thing. Low poly morphs is what drives everything in genesis. You don't sculpt a subd morph first on genesis, ever... you do a low poly morph and use that to add your detail.

    https://www.daz3d.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/0/3/03--morphhd-holoflow-daz3d.jpg

    And I just told you how that works. 

    I know how HD morphs work, I use them all the time. Look at the topology in that area and you will see that you are wrong. Clothing compression morphs is one of the few cases where I would NOT start at the base level unless the geometry just happened to be in the right place. I've never used HD for this but my guess would be somewhere level 2 to 4 is where you would have to be to do this.

    I'm telling you how HD works. You are free to send a message to PA support to confirm what I said. A low poly morph is setting up what the HD detail pass is showing, whether it's a regular morph or a projection morph. It's a low poly morph.

    Low poly morph on what? The topology that goes completely counter to where this compression effect needs to be? You're not gonna achieve anything at the lowest level.

    At this point you probably need to take your questions to the PA forum so you understand how HD works. 

    I'd say the same to you.

  • Male-M3diaMale-M3dia Posts: 3,584
    bluejaunte said:
    Male-M3dia said:
    bluejaunte said:
    Male-M3dia said:
    bluejaunte said:
    Male-M3dia said:
    bluejaunte said:
    Male-M3dia said:
    bluejaunte said:

    It doesn't need to affect the clothing. It needs to affect the skin around clothing.

    Which HD doesn't do. It's a detail pass based on a low poly morph.

    Again, HD doesn't affect a thing. Low poly morphs is what drives everything in genesis. You don't sculpt a subd morph first on genesis, ever... you do a low poly morph and use that to add your detail.

    https://www.daz3d.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/0/3/03--morphhd-holoflow-daz3d.jpg

    And I just told you how that works. 

    I know how HD morphs work, I use them all the time. Look at the topology in that area and you will see that you are wrong. Clothing compression morphs is one of the few cases where I would NOT start at the base level unless the geometry just happened to be in the right place. I've never used HD for this but my guess would be somewhere level 2 to 4 is where you would have to be to do this.

    I'm telling you how HD works. You are free to send a message to PA support to confirm what I said. A low poly morph is setting up what the HD detail pass is showing, whether it's a regular morph or a projection morph. It's a low poly morph.

    Low poly morph on what? The topology that goes completely counter to where this compression effect needs to be? You're not gonna achieve anything at the lowest level.

    At this point you probably need to take your questions to the PA forum so you understand how HD works. 

    I'd say the same to you.

    No need, I actually gave advice there ;) 

  • agent unawaresagent unawares Posts: 3,513
    bluejaunte said:
    Male-M3dia said:
    bluejaunte said:
    Male-M3dia said:
    bluejaunte said:
    Male-M3dia said:
    bluejaunte said:

    It doesn't need to affect the clothing. It needs to affect the skin around clothing.

    Which HD doesn't do. It's a detail pass based on a low poly morph.

    Again, HD doesn't affect a thing. Low poly morphs is what drives everything in genesis. You don't sculpt a subd morph first on genesis, ever... you do a low poly morph and use that to add your detail.

    https://www.daz3d.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/0/3/03--morphhd-holoflow-daz3d.jpg

    And I just told you how that works. 

    I know how HD morphs work, I use them all the time. Look at the topology in that area and you will see that you are wrong. Clothing compression morphs is one of the few cases where I would NOT start at the base level unless the geometry just happened to be in the right place. I've never used HD for this but my guess would be somewhere level 2 to 4 is where you would have to be to do this.

    I'm telling you how HD works. You are free to send a message to PA support to confirm what I said. A low poly morph is setting up what the HD detail pass is showing, whether it's a regular morph or a projection morph. It's a low poly morph.

    Low poly morph on what? The topology that goes completely counter to where this compression effect needs to be? You're not gonna achieve anything at the lowest level.

    yesyesyes

  • 7thOmen7thOmen Posts: 47
    Oso3D said:

    Another point is that even if you were a PA and created 'tight clothing' HD morphs (which would probably require everything outside of the clothed area to be projected outward a little, so that fitting happened properly), it would only work for one specific outfit. Another outfit would have an edge somewhere else, and so it wouldn't work.

    You really need some sort of dynamic element. A push or dForm map (as previously mentioned) is probably your best bet for a solution that will work for a specific situation.

    I'd create a push weight modifier node, set the value to .1 or so, then paint in 0 value where the clothes cover.

     

    This, I will try next.

    I've hit a wall on this as there are simply not enough vertices to work with that can cover a wide range of clothing articles. I've tride to move verts around on the base with all kinds of issues, texture stretching being the worst offender sometimes coupled with unnatural 'bumps', as well.

    I have a much higher appreciation for the PAs that build this in to their products. It would be nice if one or more might share how they accomplish this, even if it requires tools that aren't readily available. Just to satisfy my curiosity, if nothing else.

    Thanks!

    Omen

  • bluejauntebluejaunte Posts: 1,990
    7thOmen said:
    Oso3D said:

    Another point is that even if you were a PA and created 'tight clothing' HD morphs (which would probably require everything outside of the clothed area to be projected outward a little, so that fitting happened properly), it would only work for one specific outfit. Another outfit would have an edge somewhere else, and so it wouldn't work.

    You really need some sort of dynamic element. A push or dForm map (as previously mentioned) is probably your best bet for a solution that will work for a specific situation.

    I'd create a push weight modifier node, set the value to .1 or so, then paint in 0 value where the clothes cover.

     

    This, I will try next.

    I've hit a wall on this as there are simply not enough vertices to work with that can cover a wide range of clothing articles. I've tride to move verts around on the base with all kinds of issues, texture stretching being the worst offender sometimes coupled with unnatural 'bumps', as well.

    I have a much higher appreciation for the PAs that build this in to their products. It would be nice if one or more might share how they accomplish this, even if it requires tools that aren't readily available. Just to satisfy my curiosity, if nothing else.

    Thanks!

    Omen

    The answer is HD morphs as mentioned. Read the description of the HoloFlow product.

    Included are also HD morphs for Genesis 3 thighs to give the impression of the high boots squeezing her skin.

    There's nothing more to it really. smiley

  • Male-M3diaMale-M3dia Posts: 3,584

    Which is a low poly morph with a detail pass to "give the impression" (as noted in that product description) of the skin tightening around the clothing. So you would need to make in a end user's case a normal or displacement map to give you the detail on that morph. 

     

    Thats how how it was done. The op had the first part correct, but would need to do the detail step to make the morph look better. If you think a HD morph does that alone, you would be incorrect.

  • 7thOmen7thOmen Posts: 47

    Since I seem to have a PA or two around here...

    Can anyone confirm that the HD tools provided by DAZ increase the poly count of the relative base figure?

    Thanks!

    Omen

  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 108,463
    7thOmen said:

    Since I seem to have a PA or two around here...

    Can anyone confirm that the HD tools provided by DAZ increase the poly count of the relative base figure?

    Thanks!

    Omen

    HD morphs work on the additional vertices created by the sub-division process, rather than on the actual vertices of the SubD cage in a standard morph. In a still image you couod do the same by exporting the mesh with SubD and adjsuting that, then loading it in as a static model.

  • bluejauntebluejaunte Posts: 1,990
    Male-M3dia said:

    Which is a low poly morph with a detail pass to "give the impression" (as noted in that product description) of the skin tightening around the clothing. So you would need to make in a end user's case a normal or displacement map to give you the detail on that morph. 

     

    Thats how how it was done. The op had the first part correct, but would need to do the detail step to make the morph look better. If you think a HD morph does that alone, you would be incorrect.

    Well I just did it without ever touching anything low poly. I have a screenshot which I'm not sure I'm allowed to show here. Quickly skimmed the HD agreement, didn't find anything about not posting an image like this. Would it be ok Richard?

  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 108,463
    bluejaunte said:
    Male-M3dia said:

    Which is a low poly morph with a detail pass to "give the impression" (as noted in that product description) of the skin tightening around the clothing. So you would need to make in a end user's case a normal or displacement map to give you the detail on that morph. 

     

    Thats how how it was done. The op had the first part correct, but would need to do the detail step to make the morph look better. If you think a HD morph does that alone, you would be incorrect.

    Well I just did it without ever touching anything low poly. I have a screenshot which I'm not sure I'm allowed to show here. Quickly skimmed the HD agreement, didn't find anything about not posting an image like this. Would it be ok Richard?

    I'm afraid not.

  • 7thOmen7thOmen Posts: 47
    Richard Haseltine said:
    bluejaunte said:
    Male-M3dia said:

    Which is a low poly morph with a detail pass to "give the impression" (as noted in that product description) of the skin tightening around the clothing. So you would need to make in a end user's case a normal or displacement map to give you the detail on that morph. 

     

    Thats how how it was done. The op had the first part correct, but would need to do the detail step to make the morph look better. If you think a HD morph does that alone, you would be incorrect.

    Well I just did it without ever touching anything low poly. I have a screenshot which I'm not sure I'm allowed to show here. Quickly skimmed the HD agreement, didn't find anything about not posting an image like this. Would it be ok Richard?

    I'm afraid not.

    Wow...

    Omen

  • Male-M3diaMale-M3dia Posts: 3,584

    It's not something end users can do, and the vertices in HD still, as I said, only gives the illusion of fitting clothes. 

    Your solution would be what I mentioned previously: a low poly morph, export a subdivided mesh of that morph then generate a normal or displacement map. There's no need to discuss HD for this at all.

  • 7thOmen7thOmen Posts: 47

    @Male-Media,

    How would maps do nothing more than give the illusion of this micro pressure? I loaded up an outfit that came with the morphs in question and there is definitely adjustments made to the actors mesh.

    I ask this because I do not know, not to to second guess anyone.

    Omen

  • Male-M3diaMale-M3dia Posts: 3,584
    7thOmen said:

    @Male-Media,

    How would maps do nothing more than give the illusion of this micro pressure? I loaded up an outfit that came with the morphs in question and there is definitely adjustments made to the actors mesh.

    I ask this because I do not know, not to to second guess anyone.

    Omen

    Again the low poly morph would be the base of how you want the skin to be around a pair of clothing, Exporting a subdivided mesh of that morph will allow you to sculpt the detail you want to look around that area, creating a normal map from the subdivided mesh will give you a similar result as the HD. The vertices in a subdivided mesh dont actually affect the clothing, they give the illusion of giving pressure in those spots. Normal maps will give you a similar result as the vertices only show when rendered. 

  • 7thOmen7thOmen Posts: 47

    Ok.

    I think I get it now. I will try this method in the near future.

    I think my confusion comes from the fact that I have built from the ground up most of the time, rather than modify existing meshes. In this scenario, if I need more vertices on a newly created object, I just subdivide the existing area in my modeling program. I am aware that one can not simply add more vertices to Genesis X without breaking the maps.

    Once I have this all figured out, I guess it would be on me to publish some manner of tutorial for others to follow.

    Thanks!

    Omen

  • ArtsyDragonArtsyDragon Posts: 682

    I don't know how they do it, but I like Aeon Soul products like:

    https://www.daz3d.com/proxy-outfit-for-genesis-3-and-8-females
    https://www.daz3d.com/orbital-merc-for-genesis-8-females

    These have little details that show the clothing fitting tightly.

  • xXQuatroXxxXQuatroXx Posts: 176
    Zbrush folks... that your answer. If you want to work in high detail in zbush male sure you keep thr model on high detail and view subd too subd 2 or 3 and make sure you on have the models selected. No hair and other items. This means also no eyelashes and no earings or piercings. Just the model. You can have clothing fitted to your needs but make it invisible. Deseleted. Pose the model how you want it. Then only have the model selected and the hip. Then export with daz standard presets and import back right away. Move the clothing (for example brah) over to the static imported model and deselect everything else in the scene. Then with the static model only visible and the clothing goz to zbrush. Load it in zbrush. Make sure both clothing and static morph in zbush are able to go back to daz by hitting the goz button in zbrush if all works out you should be able to see the "add morph" window in daz... cancel it. Go back to zbrush and start your morphing with the move topology tool, damstandard brush, formbrush and smoothing brush. When done... use goz in zbrush. Give the morph a name for either clothing or model and then under zbrush parameter tab set the morph too 100%. If the surfaces dont look good then copy them over from the original model ... tadaaaa there you have your highly detailed presure morph in a nutshell.
  • lilweeplilweep Posts: 2,753
    xXQuatroXx said:
     Pose the model how you want it. Then only have the model selected and the hip. Then export with daz standard presets and import back right away.

    so basically youre just using a highly subdivided obj, which is an export of your static model.  This approach wont allow functional morphs to be creaed for Daz characters (unless youre a PA and can import HD morphs).  But the approach is definitely an option for people who have finalised their pose and only need the morph for one scene etc.

    People could just use Mesh Grabber in Daz, theoretically. They dont need to go to an external program.

     

  • duckbombduckbomb Posts: 585

    I don't like the displacement and normals solution, because displacement never lines up perfectly for me and normals don't show from the side.  Those are workarounds because we don't have the ability to create HD morphs.  
     

    What I like to do is set up my complete scene and then export the figure and any objects it's interacting with, then take to ZBrush.  Here, I can easily fly around the scene adding little details such as micro pressure along clothing lines, squished finger tips on a glass, flattened out bum on a chair...  What I'll do is actually very subtly inflate the areas around where the pressure would be so that it gives the illusion of pressure, so that I don't have to pre-line everything up.  This also allows me to add small details that help things feel natural.

    Of course, it's a manual process, you're locked at the poses and sub-d you export at, and there's lots of texture settings cleanup (particularly "thin walled" settings for some reason), but it works on a pic-by-pic basis if that's what you need.

    Its disappointing to see such limited TOS for PA's that a single screenshot example can't even be shared.  I understand why, it would just be nice to know whether or not there are more efficient ways to do things like this that we've all devised personal workarounds for...

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