5'10" is really tall.
CypherFOX
Posts: 3,401
Greetings,
I love Lyoness' characters more than almost any other provider of Genesis people. So many of them have great character, and are unique in ways that a lot of times I find lacking elsewhere, and Lyoness has one of my favorite characters of all time, Moxie Sparks. The latest bundle, Sterling's Nightwear, is great and includes some really useful clothes, along with good textures for it.
Like almost all DAZ characters, however, the main character is 5'10" tall. I don't mean to call out Lyoness...it's just a pattern across ALL characters that frustrates me. That's a half foot taller than the average US adult woman, and 7" more than what I can find of the average worldwide adult woman. Shrinking isn't just a matter of scaling down, as humans aren't...that simple to scale down. This results in 'petite' characters that are average height, or worse, much less Eva 7 who is advertised as 'petite' and is 5'11" tall. Even Teen Josie 8 is taller than an average adult.
Again, some characters who call themselves petite are at least a lot smaller, but even those are still just USA average height. There are some good characters (with great character!) who are a tiny bit shorter, but not many. And outside of explicitly 'youth' characters (4'9"), few if any are shorter than 5'3" tall, the worldwide average.
It's worth noting that Michael 8 and (randomly picked, Elios 8) are 6'2" tall, which is 5" taller than the average US adult man. Still proportionally less difference, but Victoria 8 is 6'0"! Diego 8 is only 5'10", the same height as most G8F characters, and only a sconce taller than an average guy.
I'm sure this is because DAZ's default G8F characters are 5'10"-ish, which is why almost every character creator goes with it, because making morphs that shrink the height is probably difficult. I'm guessing it compresses the texture wherever you decide to take height off, which can look wrong, especially because there was a backlash against custom UV sets.
I don't have a solution, other than using stuff like Growing Up which I know has proportional body scaling based on age/limb/torso length tables (but also has the tendency to de-age them slightly, at the same time, unfortunately), and I definitely don't want folks to go the route of not putting height in their character descriptions. I'd really like it if it were...easier to make average people, or even shorter than average adult people.
I'm going to go buy Sterling's Nightwear bundle, because it looks really cool, and has lots of utility clothing pieces, and don't take this as discouraging that at all.
I just want to encourage folks to make more average height or even shorter (since average means around half of folks are shorter!) characters, to capture the entire range of humanity, and if DAZ could find ways to encourage or help them do that.
-- Morgan
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Comments
Having a wife at 5'11" and a daughter at 6'1", I do tend to think of those heights as normal, average & everyday. Because, for me, they are.
Could you zap the figure scale dial? Not the same, I know, but it could alleviate some of your frustration.
Regards,
Richard
I'm an adult male at about 5'4" (1.64 meters)
Practically all DAZ characters are giants compared to me.....
Disagree.
I tend to agree
It could be a good idea for a store product though. A more realistic scaling morph package that gives the user more freedom than the current options.
My own sisters, all of them older than me, range from 5'4 to 6'0, so I don't really have a problem with women of any size, though, being 6'2 myself, my personal preferance does lay with the taller ones.
Could You maybe give a slightly more elaborate comment, so it's easier to see what You disagree with and why?
I'd rather have the PAs come up with more realistically sized figures than having to spend money for something, that shouldn't be needed... but considering this is DAZ shop, a paid option would still be nice
But, they ARE realistic. They're just not the avarage, which is something entirely different.
To add to that, length is just a number, nothing else. I don't see 1 meter within DS as the equivalent of 1 meter in real life. As far as I care, they rename the measurement unit in DS to Blork or Plif or Hamburger, I don't really care either way. And maybe the way forward is to make the males taller, instead of the females shorter? Males do tend to be a bit on the stocky side in DS.
The only thing that reallly matters in my opinion, is the relative proportions. On females, proportion look decent. On males, proportions are generally too stocky, too burly.
Taller than average, but that is how average gets to be what it is; some are taller, some are sorter and a number are round-about average.
If you want to shorten them (or lengthen), the legs are what makes up the height difference I understand, at least mostly.
I think also that DAZ figures are to big per default.
The default height of males is around 5'10" and that of woman 5'5".
DAZ figures does not reflect this.
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Average_human_height_by_country
Greetings,
So...to respond to one particular point, 1 meter in DAZ is...1 meter, if you're converting from a tool that has units of measurement. If someone is constructing a prop in a 3D design tool, they're going to either completely wing it for fantasy reasons, or they're going to use realistic units. If they use realistic units (very straightforward to do in most design tools) then they're going to be slightly mis-sized for DAZ characters. But that's not entirely the issue; props can generally be re-sized without giving that sense of unease that resizing humans incorrectly gives.
If I were to shorten the characters, the options are the shins, the thighs, or the torso, mainly. And I don't know which of these will have the best behavior, between looking like a common human being's proportions still, and not distorting the textures too much (although the textures can be hidden by pants, skirts, etc.). And if I shorten the legs, do I shorten the arms to match, and again, forearm or upper arm? Is the height delta area (and limb sizes) different between men and women? These are things I just...don't know, but I would expect a character artist to know.
I'm also not talking about my personal preference, or suggesting that tall women don't exist(!) or there's a problem there. While only 1% of adult women are 6'0" or above, it's wonderful to support that.
Just...please support the other side of the bell curve, also? Or maybe the middle a bit more. If all the DAZ characters were under 5'3" I'd be poking at having taller characters; I just would like to hope for all the sizes of humans to be portrayed and modeled by our skilled character designers.
By the way, I've called out a lot of tall characters, so it's worth also calling out that Rynne 8 stands 5'3", and that's a DAZ named character, so that's a positive note in this context.
-- Morgan
I have all my characters in a Google sheet, and just did a search out of curiosity for some sizes for the core female characters of Genesis 8 and found some interesting results:
5'5" - Gabriela 8
5'6" - Bridget 8, Edie 8, Mabel 8, Robyn 8, Stephanie 8, Teen Kaylee 8, Teen Raven 8
5'7" - Charlotte 8, Jenni 8, Sydney 8
5'8" - Alexandra 8, Babina 8, Eva 8, The Girl 8
While I did the search I also found many add-on characters for them, but also characters for Genesis 8 Female, by Lyoness, bluejuante, Fred Winkle, Anain, and others, so the smaller characters are being created. But where the store page for the core characters always gives you the heights, it is rare for a PA to include the height, bust, waist, hip measurement in the store page. And if you do not have the plug-in, you can't tell easily.
I do agree that a height adjustment morph package would be useful, if you want a male or female character to be a few inches or more smaller or larger than provided. Tracking down the available height morphs, I have found it takes two different ones to get a male to over six feet.
Not to be a smart ass. but I thought that was what the scale slider was for? *confused look*
yep
Hey! Thanks, I never knew that was there. If you are referring to 'Proportions Body Scale'? Had to boot up my system and load G8F first to see it in Shaping > Full Body. If that isn't it, where is it?
Anything that helps is greatfully received.
Mary
1 meter in DAZ corresponds to.. One meter in DAZ. Not to one meter in real life. The only reason software calls some arbitrary uniit a meter, is because it's conveniently recognizable, and the measurement is proportionally relatively close to 1 meter in real life. Still, it's just a virtual unit, not a real unit. And while female characters are generally designed proportionally acceptable, male characters generally are not. It's not the females being too tall. It's the males being too stocky by comparison. Size down a female character, and she'll maintain exactly the same proportions. However, place her next to a non-resized character, and the overall proportions will start to look wrong, since certain parts of the body on real life short people are relatively large when comparing those same parts to real life tall people.
Male characters however, they're proportionally short, even without resizing. Get those proportions right (make males TALLER, not larger, but specifically TALLER), and we'll be able to resize male and females alike to 90% or 30% or whatever, and it'd still look proportionally right. The problem isn't just the length of the character, it's the proportions. And male proportions in DS generally are wrong. Too muscled, the chest and hips are too wide, legs too short. Get that sorted first, make them proportionally correct when compared to women, and then maybe investigate sizing down *all* characters by some 10%. Just re-designing the genesis females is the wrong direction to go about it, since they're not the problem, and it'll just make the problem worse overall.
There is a height morph in the Genesis X Female/Male Body Morphs products. A link to Genesis 8 Female is below as an example. https://www.daz3d.com/genesis-8-female-body-morphs
There's overall object scale, like all objects and props.
This works if the proportions of the woman looks right and you just want... shorter.
There are also, in the main body shapes ( https://www.daz3d.com/genesis-8-female-body-morphs ) height and weight sliders; these are mainly useful if you want the proportions to be different.
And the fact is, women can have proportionally long or short legs, long or short torsos, etc.
With G8F selected and Full Body chosen, and 'Height' in the search window, I found 7 different body height sliders, and 1 waist hip height, along with 4 nose ones. You have to be able to know the correct word to easily find what you are looking for. You may have seen it before, months ago, but now, it is lost in a slew of other morphs. I am grateful to everyone for pointing out the shaping products that, while I have them, just get lost. I really need to find a better way to study each shaping product as I buy it, and record my findings for months down the road when I am searching for the right tool to use.
But the original point I was making in my first post, was that DAZ does have smaller core female characters. And that the PAs make ones for G8F as well. Yes, not in the same representation as the real world, but they are there to use.
One thing is that the only way to tell the characters are too tall in a render is by comparing them to their surroundings. You could increase the Scale on the surrounding props rather than decrease the Scale of the Gen 8 figure, making them look shorter than the documentation says they are. Then you can use the Height slider to change individual characters heights compared to the other characters.
Everyone quotes these "average" female heights, but without knowing further details, they probably aren't the right data set. The best comparison would be average heights for current 20 30 year old females.
Casual observation in the US (at least) for this age group would indicate the average is a lot closer to 5'10" than 5'4".
My simple formula for somebody about 5'3" to 5'6" is scale to 93-95%, head scale up 1-2%, leg length down 5-10%. The newer generations have a height dial, but it's not always what I want.
Of course, for a Na'vi princess, scale was 1.85 and "young" was 50% to get a 9 foot tall slim character with blue skin!
The base morphs have a height propogating scale dial which very nicely, and cleanly, scales up or down head size. Which is great to adjust the feel of a figure from some huge giant (proportionally smaller head) or a halfling/kid (larger head). Directly scaling the head can throw things off much past the 2% Slimer mentioned.
I do love playing with heights. Sterling's height I chose to match the original reference girl I had been using.
I do whatever I feel like! I have to say, doing a totally petite set might be fun!
Oh, hello (yes, I always use the height morph - I dial it up, not down
).
...hmm handy to get that bottle of Patron off the top shelf.
i have to say: Lyoness has one of the widest ranges of female character shapes and sizes and styles of any vendor around. some PAs seem to favor variations on a theme, but you never know what (or who) she's going to come up with next.
the bonus features she includes with her characters when the mood is upon her cover a lot of cool territory, too.
i just wish i could remember all their names. and which includes which unique daz studio superpower. :)
j
the only reason I dont rescale stuff much and would descale if needed is aniblocks and the like don't work well with the extremes
the pose controls help a bit though
Then scale the environment instead.