Muscle-Based Deformation
Faux2D
Posts: 456
I wanted to share something I've been working on. I was never satisfied with the Genesis figures so I decided to make my own and in the process I think I came up with some interesting ideas. Below you can see where I'm at. General map rigging, no TriAx, no morphs, no JCM's, 290 bones in total (including the facerig), all done in DAZ.
Other artists usually scoff at DAZ for being a tool for amateurs but by pushing its limits I was able to create something nobody else was able to make in "professional" programs like MAYA or 3DSMAX. And I'm no coder, I just used the basic tool at DAZ's disposal which were available for almost a decade now.
The model is part of a larger project I'm working on. I created it with true to life anatomical musculature, and it can easily be morphed into a less/more stylized figure.
Any feedback or suggestions are greatly appreciated.
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Comments
It appears the .gif files don't animate so here's a link to the same 4 images: https://imgur.com/a/u8rnwYZ
Wow, that is impressive!
Please continue to post about your progress!
That is nothing less than incredible.
I wonder what would happen if you exported it to Blender and applied a shrink wrap modifier... automatic skinning, and we could finally forget about that JCM mess?
Please keep us informed of your progress!
When you say that you made your own figure, do you mean you started with a DAZ figure and morphed it or that you started literally from scratch? If the latter, I'd love to know how you can do with without modelling and sculpting tools? Either way your figure is very impressive and I will be interested to see where you go with it.
Very nice!
The 3D model itself was created by me in Zbrush and Modo. In order to make accurate muscle deformation I needed distinct topology for each muscle. There's no basemesh out there that had what I needed so I made my own.
No need for a shrink wrap modifier. It's all one solid mesh with continuous topology (aside from the eyes and teeth, of course). The detail of the muscles make it seem like it has no skin but if you smooth out those details in any 3D program you would get instant skin. Just load it back as full body morph. Attached an image as an example.
Take over the world of course. Or plan B, use it as a source to create comics, animations, games, etc. It took a lot of time to get to this point because there's to walkthrough out there, nor is there any example of anything similar. Lots of dead ends, lots of trial-and-error. Main goal is to create convincing 2D art with 3D models. Ever since I saw what the people at Arc System Works were able to pull off with thier Guilty Gear franchise game I was on a mission.
Here's an example of what I was able to do with a Genesis 2 figure in DAZ (method now scrapped):
(Image removed for nudity. Please go over the guidelines. https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/3279/acceptable-ways-of-handling-nudity#latest )
Wow, awesome work! I would also pay money for this. So do bends in the knee and armpits and elbows "smush" properly to avoid overlapping? That would be an amazing feature. Definitely worth money! Perhaps you can have this be part of the next Genesis release! Also, please don't forget about breast/booty physics! ;-)
This is fantastic!!! I can't wait to hear more about your progress. I will also pay you money.
Are you referring to geometry clipping? To some extent. Thing with muscles is they slide over one another so you kinda have to have the geometry overlap if you're aiming for realism.
Here's a closeup of the elbow and knee joints: https://imgur.com/a/KeqEEZN
Booty physics a go go. I do plan on having the figure morph into the male version, which is why there are no breasts yet. Picture all the elements of the figure as being gooey. They move independently only in an anatomical fashion but if you want you can stretch and pull any part you want. So yes, bouncing physics are readily available with no added morphs.
There's also a low rezolution version of the geometry. Base resolution = 56k polygons. Low resolution = 16k polygons.
This is amazing! I would buy this immediately!
It is a Genesis figure technically: mine. It was rigged in DAZ therefore you can transfer any Genesis item to it using the usual tricks.
I don't plan on making it commercially avaiable because its rigging is the most advanced out there and don't want it leaked in the industry. I know it sounds like bragging but I have studied all models I could find from, Daz, Poser, Triple A games, etc but none of them were what I was looking for. The most advanced figures I discovered are the Genesis 2 ones but still had some unreconcilable limitations (mainly the lack of a translation weight map for its proprietary TriAx weight system). Thus one thing led to another and now I'm at the stage you see here.
Another thing why it might not be a good idea to sell is because it was created for a specific stylized art style and I doubt there are many people interested in it specifically.
One thing I was annoyed about with the Daz figures is the kind of artefacts that arise during certain poses, especially around the clavicle area and armpit. The figures kind of have a bendy clavicle and usually there are no corrective morphs for that.
Personally I don't really understand the theory of how the rigging, weighting, projections, etc., in Daz Studio works, but I think a more realistic way of rigging would help remove a lot of the problems that occur when posing.
For one, I wish you could unleash it to the daz public either for free or a product, secondly; the last attempt at something like this was the Flexion style of morphs for genesis 1/2 and have been subtly integrated into the base G8 figure, yet it is not close to being a wholly accurate representation as what you've shown here!.
To be honest you are one of the rare artists out there that actually studied human anatomy, and not just an extreme stylized representative of human anatomy that is predominate in the genesis ecosystem! Yours would have been such a valuable contribution that it's a crying shame that we cannot enjoy the fruits of your creation!
I have to wonder whether DAZ themselves might be interested in your advances in technology. Others have worked with them to market a joint effort. It might be worth your while as it looks like you have invested a lot of time and effort into this.
Does this include volume preserving deformations? That's the "holy grail" (I think Houdini can do it) but it requires some kind of physics model. Just modelling the musculature isn't all that helpful without it.
That's the thing, though. It's not an advancement in technology, I used the same tools and technology already available to everyone. An idea just came to me then searched everywhere to check how feasable it is. Didn't find any example of someone doing something similar so I had to try it myself, and the result is better than I hoped for.
The model was created as part of a larger project but I was so happy with the results I just had to share it here.
It doesn't. It can be mimmicked to some extent using scale and translations. I wanted a figure I had full control over. I did go the route at some point of trying to have the computer figure out things like cloth and hair dynamics. I learned the hard way that that works only for realistic images and it's completely useless for the visual style I'm going for. Complete waste of time it was for me.
So what you did was to make a bone for every muscle?
How long did it take you and if you do end up inspiring others to follow your path, would you teach them at least the basic-bare-bones fundamentals? I say bare bones as I don't want you to give all of your secrets away!
Scratch that last bit, this is a revolutionary process and as such it should be yours to do what ever you want with it! Kudos for such an achievement that not even the wizards over at pixologic has been able to do what you do, my hats off to you!
I studied anatomy many years in college and this is by far some of the best simulation I have seen. My hat is off to you. I would love to see this available somewhere and I am sure many here would also. My biggest peeve with all the models currently available is the shoulder lat insertion. Some have done a bit to help but none have it quite right. SimonWM does a great job with his Swole Update for Fibo. I use many muscular models and the weird clipping that happens in the armpit with the bicep and the lat when the arm is down really ruins the picture/illusion for me. I hate having to alter the pose, or worse still alter the model, just to make it work. If you do not make this available in some fashion, I hope DAZ is watching and finds some way to emulate this in possibly the next iteration/generation.
With great respect,
Great job!
I did see something similar in the first versions of makehuman. A detailed muscular topology such as that, tends to not work fine for heavy characters. That's because the topology defined by heavy fat deposits is completely different from the topology defined by muscles. That also works different as far as body dynamic is concerned, since the slidings and mass movements of a fat body are different.
That's why usually they go with a more generic and less detailed topology for a general morphing figure. So that it is more optimized and covers a more general range of possible shapes. Then displacement maps are used for details instead of geometry, that's a much more flexible way to redesign whatever kind of details are needed on the same figure. So no need of detailed geometry that only works for one kind of topology.
As for the "all bones" rig it may not fit different topologies such as the fat man example above. Different bones may be needed to drive different kinds of bodies. That's why usually they go with a more generic rig for the basic features then use morph helpers for the details. Same principle as for the body geometry.
Also consider that most of the time characters are dressed. So a completely different rig may be needed again depending on the kind of dress they're wearing. And human anatomy may be a small part of it.
That said I do like your work. It may very well fit a specific purpose.
Nobody really gets it right (except Netter). No matter how much you study anatomy you'll always overlook something. There's a saying: you can study every detail of anatomy 100 times but you'll forget all of it 101 times. Even while working on this, if I took to long a break I had to revise everything I previously did because I already forgot some of it.
It was indeed made for a specific purpose which is why it's most unlikely unfeasable as a Daz figure. It can be useful as an anatomical reference however.
Clothes are the next step. I'm going fo a stylized look so I plan to add fold dynamics into the rig itself. What I discovered is the more detailed the topology then the more things you can do with the rig.
I would love to see your art displayed as
My pet peave is that some PAs apply the corrective morphs via the shoulder bend, when it should be the collar, this is why I praise K.H.Image studio's corrective morphs so much! I too would hope that some enterprising PA/1st party Daz artist will apply better and more accurate morphs/bones for genesis 9 after seeing Fuzz's incredible work...
This is quite impressive, I'm a facial and body mocap specialist, and this looks really, really good. If you'd like someone to give it a test run via mocap, let me know.
I wouldn't be so sure that DAZ, or someone else, woudn't be intrested. There seem s to be a lot of exitment expressed in this thread about your figure, A lot of times you develop something new, and others see potential uses that you never thought about. I wouldn't just dismiss, out of hand, that Daz would not be intrested. DAZ has made big strides in makeing their characters ready for use in other 3d programss and gaming programs. I remember when GoFigure came out with their animation tools; they heve been pretty much integrated into DAZ studio, and I believe some of their developers ended up working for DAZ. You never know....
My two cents worth...
Finished the male morph. Link to video: https://imgur.com/a/K4ZTVXh
Wow! If you released this I would buy it. Could you morph it into something a little more endomorphic (wider hips but extra body fat not necessary)? I would pay high dollar for this. Seriously good work. Keep posting videos. It feeds our dreams. If DAZ is watching you need to contact this guy and have a serious talk. Bring your checkbook!