A bit OT, quick question about Camera Raw and previewing in Photoshop
SnowSultan
Posts: 3,807
Maybe I'm overlooking something simple, but I'm trying to find a way to preview a Camera Raw smart filter with adjustment layers on top of it and just cannot find a way. Let me explain in detail what I want to do, because it's actually a bit confusing.
* I load a render with a transparent background over a white background layer, then make the render's layer into a smart object.
* I put a Curve or Hue/Saturation adjustment layer above the render layer. So far, everything's normal.
* I apply a Camera Raw smart filter to the render layer. This opens a new panel with the Camera Raw adjustments. However, the adjustments made by the Curve or Hue/Sat layer are not visible. I need them to be. :)
I know I can group them and work on the smart object by itself, but because I want to actually adjust a smart filter *on* the smart object, I still won't see the full result without flattening or 'stamping' everything. Does anyone know if there's a way around this limitation? Thanks in advance.
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Hey SnowSultan....maybe I can help. I have fallen in love with Camera raw and use it all the time for book publishing where I have to color correct 100s of photos at a time. I don't believe there's a way to see your curves layer when you move into CR (besides flattening), but there are tools INSIDE CR that are the same. I do it both ways...but I usually do my CR work first to even out the image and then come back out and get lazy and throw curves or Hue/Sat etc on top because those are quick and I can do lots of masking with them, which is a bit harder in CR itself. You can even do a combination of both. Think of CR as your overall color adjuster and "cleaner" and then if you want to do masked adjustments, etc., throw those on top outside CR AFTER doing your main work in CR.
I would do any cloning or patching of the image before you start into using any adjustments or CR stuff. Then start your CR "cleaning" or main color adjustments.
First, if you don't already, start by going to Filter>Convert for Smart Filter. THEN go back and choose Filter>Camera Raw. That will keep your CR filter intact if you want to go back and make changes. Once it's set up that way you can double click the layer and re-enter CR at any time. Of course, you can also go into the smart layer to do more patching but I try to avoid that. It's there if you need it.
Once you are in CR, you can do the basic adjusting with hitting Auto and making adjustments or do all the main tab's sliders yourself. The parts you might be specifically looking for are on the next tabs. I have attached a pic for you. I use those plus a bit of clarity and vibrance on the main tab. If you do your overall toning in those tabs, then you can come back and fine tune with masks outside on regular layers if needed.
There's brushes in there to do other things and some sort of masking etc but they are pretty unwieldy as compared to a hand done mask. You can try double nesting smart layers with CR Filters on them but it would prob get too confusing. However, that said, I do use them with canvases to nest the 32 bit image in a smart layer so I can use regular layer adjustments on top without having to convert back to 8 bit.
For some really outstanding training on CR you can check out Dave Cross. He was my private teacher for high end color correction and he's awesome. Not very expensive either for private tutoring OR you can check out his video classes on his site or on CreativeLive.com. He's works directly for Adobe and I think he actually consults on development of PS, so he knows his stuff plus he's SUPER nice. I've been using PS for over 25 years and he taught me a TON in just 6 hours.
https://online.davecrossworkshops.com/courses/category/Raw%20Editing
https://www.youtube.com/user/zipman11/videos
Thank you for the very detailed explanation and examples. I'm actually quite familar with Camera Raw and probably have the most ridiculously complicated postwork workflow of anyone using DAZ products, but your post made me realize that I had not tried inputting the same Curve point values from my 88+ postwork standalone curve presets into the curve panel inside Camera Raw. I just tried that with two curve presets, and although they are very slightly different inside Camera Raw (no idea why), they're certainly close enough to then make all the other adjustments that are available and get very good results without the issue of not being able to preview it accurately as before.
I think that will make a big difference in my workflow, so thank you very much for leading me to that discovery. :)
Most welcome! Smacky rocks, BTW :) I always admire the effort and the postwork on it.
Thank you very much, glad you like Smacky! I've been doing a lot of tests with using my old curves in Camera Raw the last two days and results are looking good. Never really imagined not having to spend 2 days on postwork and having fifty adjustment layers, haha...thanks again for the inspiration. :)
Sorry to keep bumping this thread, but it's starting to bug me that the exact same point settings on the Camera Raw curves do not give identical results to a Curve adjustment layer with the same settings. Do you or anyone else happen to know why this would be? They both have 255 levels, every other value on the Camera Raw panel is set to 0 (unchanged from default), and there are not any other layers affecting the result.
If it helps, the colors on the Camera Raw seem like they're being affected by slightly more contrast for some reason. Skin tones are always better on the adjustment layer Curves.
I think Camera Raw works in 16 bit and you may be working in 8 bit in Photoshop. I don't know if that would make a difference. You might also be working in a different colour space. I can't remember if Raw and PS can have separate colour spaces.
LOL..only 50 layers? Slacker!
Lessee...well..could it possibly be the settings for what "camera" CR is using? If nothing else has changed I know you can set which type of film or camera it thinks its working with. I'll go poke around and see so I can figure out where. Maybe the white point is different because of that.
AFAIK CR works fine in 8 bit. That's what I usually use it in. The only reason I ever go to 32 or 16 is because of needing it for EXR and canvasses.
Ok I found something that MIGHT be it. See attached.
First, on the main tab it sets the white point. Since the render is not coming from a camera I wonder if there's NOT really a white point, so maybe CR handles it differently. Normally CR I guess reads what type of camera it came from so the default is set to "As Shot". There's a little 3 line pop out thing there where you could play with changing. It seems set to CR default, by default..ha ha. Maybe changing that to "image settings" would make a difference? There's seems to be that option on each tab, including the curves tab. Not sure if they are independent though, tab per tab, or overall.
Did you do any sampling to neutralize the image before working on them at all? Or are you just going with what the render came out as? I ask because I often have to do shots based on the Bonneville Salt Flats, where the ground is supposed to be pretty white so I have to usually balance the image (also for skin tones) BEFORE I do anything else. Wondering if any sample points affect anything, though since those are only measurements it shouldn't.
My bet is that PS might be confused about the white point though and that's why it's slightly off. There's a white point in DS, but I don't know if that transfers in a way that PS sees.
Checking the color space might help, but I think it stays the same in CR and out, unless it's captured in a smart layer weirdly, like I did for the canvasses. Since my work is mainly camera to print, I've never had a reason to switch bit spaces much...just converting profiles before correction. I usually convert everything to Adobe 1998, correct and then convert to CMYK from there. The final CMYK profile is determined by the printing house and which country it's in.
When I open a raw render in PS it tells me its sRGB so its at least setting something, probably because I have tone mapping always on. THAT would affect CR's clipping points differently than a normal camera photo that CR expects. And of course...if all Snow's old settings were all based on renders made with tone mapping on, it could have an effect.
The tone mapping discussion here is interesting with regard to the linear workflow and colorspace:
https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/159016/srgb-display-in-viewport-with-tone-mapping-off
My CRAW opens all images in Adobe RGB 1998 at 16bit. I don't generally use it for render images just the RAW files from my camera, although all files are set to open in it even .jpgs :) It then sends the image to PS and it is still a 16bit image and to save it as a .jpg I have to drop it to 8bit.
I opened one of my renders in CRAW and tried the Auto for the White Balance and it didn't make any adjustments. I checked the Tone Curve and tried a few adjustments, which didn't do much for the image, by adjusting the Black and White points. I reset the curves back to default. I then sent the image to PS. It came in as a 16bit image and the default colour space is also Adobe RGB 1998. I opened the Curves and tried the same adjustments and it caused a red shift in the image. I don't know why as I haven't noticed that before as I use the CRAW for adjustments and PS for sharpening and noise.
Fishtales, I thought for sure you had pointed out the problem when I read your first response, but I just manually converted a old curve for Camera Raw and it's still just a bit different. Thanks for that suggestion though.
I think Zai is right about the white balance being slightly off but I've tried those various settings and there's no change. I'll double check though and look through camera settings and color profiles. I did use the default tone mapping settings for years (the crush blacks/whites part), but after trying to get similar preview results in Studio and Substance Painter for texture creating, I decided to scrap them and have been rendering everything with those two set to 0 ever since.
Hrm....I searched for something to see if there is indeed a difference in the way CR handles curves vs. PS. It gave me Lightroom info, but well..Lightroom is basically CR I guess. Found something interesting...
http://ptgmedia.pearsoncmg.com/imprint_downloads/peachpit/peachpit/lightroom4/pdf_files/LRCurves.pdf
These are older but at least it kind of goes over the reason for the difference in how PS handles curves vs. LR or CR. Seems to come down to a hue lock and luminosity changes.
https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1095544/
https://luminous-landscape.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Do-Your-Curves-Throw-You-a-Curve_LL-Final-Integrated.pdf
Snow, are you seeing the difference as a color shift or as a lightening or darkening, or both? Is it subtle or is it a lot?
They seem to be indicating that they want people to use curves LESS in LR/CR and more in PS. Someone said curves as a last resort in CR and adjustments on the main panel as the main thing to do. Which doesn't seem to square with the fact that CR accesses a lot more info when dealing with raw than just PS alone.
I tried to do the same thing to speed up workflow (doing curves in CR), but it always comes down to me needing multiple curves layers to postwork the image anyway. I stack curves on top of curves on top of hue on top of selective color on top of all kinds of things to get where I want to go. You can't do that like that in CR. Then again, CR/LR is more of a photography tool than it is an "art" tool, more suited for overall corrections than heavy compositing work. I look at it like a base starting point with the real work happening in PS, sort of like what these guys are suggesting here. It certainly does give a nicer wider range of a starting point though.
I'll make a couple of preview images soon so you can see the differences. Thanks for all that information.
Yeah I will still add multiple adjustment layers and more curves after the Camera Raw fix, but it's already helping a lot to be able to adjust the highlights, shadows, and texture/clarity while also previewing a strong curve effect. I'll probably just end up just making new curve presets for Camera Raw and then use my old ones as normal PS curves to use over it. Just accepting they're not going to be exactly the same will be less stressful than trying to figure out why they are. ;)
OK, here are two examples of the same curves, the left ones remade inside the Camera Raw smart filter and the original separate adjustment layer curves on the right.
In the first example, there's really not that much difference. One's a little more yellow than the other, but in this case, it's actually better than the original for this particular render. The other one...yeah, I have no clue why the smart filter is so green. I checked the settings three times because I kept thinking I had entered the wrong numbers. The only real difference is that I made that green one yesterday (both the PS curve and the CR one), while the other one's original PS curve is a few years old (the CR version was made two days ago).
I'm with ya on all of that and that's what I was starting to think. Just accepting it and dealing with it to remake some and embrace the new..LOL. I'm initially liking the newer ones, too. Might need just a bit of contrast or clarity, but very very little. They overall seem a bit more refined and smooth than the others. Just have to slightly adjust how you handle the yellows, agreed there. Maybe there's a cludge in using the top temperature slider to compensate on some of the old ones if you find they go green, by giving it a nudge back to the yellow side.
One thing I did find in the CR filter recently was that on one of the last tabs there's a "post crop" vignette function on the FX tab that's really nice. I don't know why it's called post crop, but still. It looks greyed out until you touch one of the sliders below it. Way better than doing it by hand in PS with overlays, but only if you want an overall square or roundish vignette. Once you set that you can also kinda drag it around in the image before locking it in.
For some reason the way it multiplies or applies is much finer than the old way, even on multiply. You know how sometimes a black vignette type blend kinda goes brown on you as it blends out depending on what color it's over? This doesn't seem to do that. Might want to play with that if you use vignetting on edges of your images. I use it a lot to focus attention where I want it on an image. Either that the reverse...a white radial blend set to light overlay or screen behind something to pull the eye to it.
Thanks as always, I'll look a litle bit into that post crop function. Usually, I don't use vignettes but now that they're really adjustable, I might try again.
Also, here are the numerical values for the points on of my curves in case you'd like to try them sometime and see if you get similarly different results in CR and the adjustment layer. I *think* this might be the green one, but not 100% sure. Numbers are input/output going from bottom left corner up to upper right, each set of two is one point.
RGB: 67 53, 146 141, 204 204
RED: 51 39, 131 107, 184 170
GREEN: 45 51, 94 102, 170 184
BLUE: 47 57, 115 125, 168 180
Thanks! I'll give it a go when I have some time :)