More and More Non-support DAZ
Yonas Ang
Posts: 108
Lately I've been seeing more and more artists or vendors using DAZ's Resources like Victoria 4, Morph++, etc. to create their product, BUT not supporting DAZ Studio. Isn't this kind of negative impact to DAZ, well I feel that as DAZ only user, I don't own Poser, and don't have a plan near this time to purchase that software because it's waaaaay over priced with almost the same feature with DAZ.
For further more slap in the face, lot of vendor selling products that support both DAZ and Poser which include more feature for Poser like SSS mats, transparency, phyton blending script for Poser, and nothing except default mats for DAZ at the same price.
At this time, many will leave DAZ completly since so many vendor non-support DAZ but using DAZ resource and sell them for Poser only.
Try to look up some Poser products at Renderosity, many product decription would looks like this :
"This product is for : Poser Pro, Poser 5, Poser 6, etc...
This product required : Victoria 4 and Morph++ @ DAZ
Not supported for DAZ Studio".
(ironic)
Product is shape morph FYI.
Or
Price: 9,99$ (for both Poser or DAZ)
This product required : Victoria 4, Morph ++
"Tested with DAZ, working properly, but some complex mats don't support DAZ"
When I purchased the products, ALL the trans map didn't work in DAZ, and trans map doesn't seem complex to me SSS mat is complex, blending color mat is complex, transmap, I don't think so.
So what these vendors trying to say is "I use DAZ's product to make money, but I don't want ever support DAZ or their user. But hell, I'll just put the same price for DAZ user *grin* the mats won't work properly it's their lost for not owning Poser."
This is my suggestion, why not makes Victoria 4, and all Victoria 4 addition like morph++, Victoria 4 elite, to be DAZ exclusive.
From my point of view, Poser has been using DAZ for a long long time to their benefit. I haven't found any Poser products that benefit DAZ. DAZ products that benefit Poser, well almost all of them.
This is kind of make me wonder, is DAZ actually really an independent posing and 3D software brand, or just merchant resource vendor for Poser ?
Daz 3D is part of 
Connect
DAZ Productions, Inc.
224 S 200 W, Suite #250
Salt Lake City, UT 84101
Licensing Agreement | Terms of Service | Privacy Policy | EULA
© 2024 Daz Productions Inc. All Rights Reserved.
Comments
I think your rant is a bit overblown, however, I also think that DAZ's long lack of documentation has made it harder for vendor's to make shaders and such for DS. Maybe the newly released materials will make it easier for them.
Actually, documentation has nothing to do with not even bothering testing an item to work in both programs.. much less making sure at least bump maps work, if they're even including them and not hiding them behind shaders someone else built.
I'm pretty sure Poser docs says nothing about making good shaders for characters. They would learn them the same way as they would any program as textures vary.... trial and error... from there you learn what's good and what's not.
It's easy. :) 90% of my shopping is done at DAZ. For other sites, if it isn't DAZ ready, I don't buy. I support the vendors who support DS fully.
As for DAZ, of course it's an independent company. How vendors choose to develop products for DAZ characters is on them, not DAZ.
So support the vendors that make things that work for you and skip the rest! :)
Well V4 was developed for use in DS AND poser and since each app has it's own features, it's not surprising that products with poser specific features won't work the same in DS. Also, since you are a DS only user, ever thought about that vendors might not be DS users or vice versa which would explain a product working in one app only.
If it makes you feel any better, with the new genesis tech it's harder and harder to create poser only files, so thats a win for DAZ, LOL.
IMO users that are DS only really need to broaden their horizons and open their minds, there are some many 3D apps and each has their own pros and cons. No reason not to think outside the DAZ box as it can only enhance your DS use.
I think you bring up an interesting points, and I do think that products need to include a proper contents list so buyers can determine if the content included meets their needs.
Honestly, this is only an issue with shaders and with mc6 and mt5 mat files. Anything else can still be used. Generally when they say they haven't tested in Daz I read the reviews. Almost always you'll see a review that says something like "I used this in DS4.6 and it works great with a few mat tweaks!". Barring reviews I check the read me to ensure it doesn't have mc6 or mt5 or poser only shaders.
All this type of thing means is that when you load a poser only file you usually have to check bump settings (poser defaults to +- .01 and Daz to +- .1 and specular/glossy generally. You might occasionally have to manually put some mat files in but it's not hard. Just do it once and save it as a DUF file and you're good to go.
Thank you for all the replies.
Someone just sent me a PM that explain my curiosity with dispute between DAZ and Poser, so now I kind of understand a bit why many Poser artist / vendor behave like that toward DAZ, but still that doesn't do justice, why bring us your potential costumer to the war of vendeta againts each other.
Well, lets just keep that aside for now.
________________________________________________________________
My Rant Reloaded, ( regarding the vendor's product )
I know how to tweaks a mat that will still work with DAZ, but not with the one that won't work whatever you tweak ^^.
But, instead the vendor said it is worked in DAZ with some tweaking. I do wonder how someone could tweak trans map, they only have value of opacity.
If half of the mats won't work in DAZ, just don't sell it for DAZ, it will be better, make them Poser only.
Oh, and if you read the reviews, there will always be someone that posted "Great product, even work properly with DAZ 3 and DAZ 4" (makes you wonder ?). There is nothing I could trust anymore, not the vendor, documentation, or even reviews.
Then I tried to contact this vendor, mentioning that I was using DAZ for the product asking about the problem, and got no reply not even "sorry I couldn't help you". Three days later I sent another PM but I lied that I was using Poser with the same problem, and got a reply with very detailed workaround.
Here are some suggestion for all vendor:
- just told the truth to the costumer, what are the features that won't work with DAZ, is it minor issue so we could just tweak the mats, or it will give you headache that you wish just never bought that product.
- what do you need to do for DAZ so the product will work as it intended to
- sell them at seperate product type one for DAZ and one for Poser
- provide us with good documentation / read me at product description
- if the vendor won't support DAZ in any way, because of some personal vendeta with DAZ, then don't make us costumer that has nothing to do with both companies to suffer alongside DAZ.
*In addition to SereneNight reply.
I know some vendor that do this, they are very detailed with the product description, which all of them end up being top vendor. If only more vendor could do the same thing, value your costumer even if it just a 5$ product which maybe mean nothing to the vendor, but each costumer bring that 5$ for you and imagine 100 poser cosutmer AND 100 DAZ costumer do that for you..
If a vendor says a product does not support DAZ Studio then you really can't expect them to reply to questions about using the product in DS - they can be expected to provider support only for those applications in which they assert the product will work.
While some people may well not support an application for "personal" reasons more often than not it will be a matter of not feeling able to offer an adequate level of support due to unfamiliarity, or even through not being able to run DS (it is fussier than Poser, not having a fall-back non-OpenGL viewport mode). You do need to remember that outside the top-tier most merchants are not doing this full time.
You need to remember that true SSS is newer in Poser than in DS, so offering two sets of mats for Poser and one for DS may be nothing more than an attempt to offer backward compatibility. Also, Poser materials all use the Material Room and so adding extra features is relatively straight-froward - by contrast DS materials tend, by default, to use one of the standard shaders and so adding fancy procedural effects requires building a completely new shader for those - that means matching the Poser version would be much worse than a doubling of workload.
Thank you for the reply Richard.
Regarding the vendor product's support,
If they can't or won't support DAZ, then they should be straight, they should never put this line "Tested and work properly with DAZ", would be better if only this line appear "Poser only product"
But, I've should have been straight this up, this case isn't with DAZ store gladfuly, it's with the most vendor at R*oops*ty.com
About SSS, yup, I understand SSS shader is heavy duty work which more than double the workload, but so does our wallet's worksload is more than doubled when purchasing that kind of product. Just more general comparison with more generic example.
Let say that I live in New York, then someday I'm on some bussiness trip to Canada. Night came, and I was having dinner with my co-worker that live in Canada.
Then, he order a personal pan pizza and club soda, for me a personal pan pizza and water without ice. After finished eating we go to cashier, but they charge us with the same price. When I asked the cashier why would water have the same price with that club soda.
The cashier then replied, "Sorry sir, he is a Canadian, and you are a New Yorker, we charge New Yorker more and less more Canadian". Which 99% won't be happening in real world because it shouldn't be. Every price for every value.
PS: there is a great product for those who've been longing for SSS mats, search for Interjection in DAZ shop.
Hmmm... lack of documentation... Not quite true. DAZ has always had documentation, just never accurate, complete or timely. Somewhere in this concept is a political cartoon of Coyote DAZ running over a ghostly bridge labeled "Documentation", then getting to the middle to realize there's nothing supporting him. (* images of coyote disappearing down to the bottom of the canyon and a tiny poof as he hits bottom *)
My point was that many DS sets already have SSS mats as the default - both the Human Surface Shader, which dates back to DS2, and uberSurface, in DS3, are SSS shaders and are used by many character sets. The non-SSS materials for Poser are for backward compatibility, in versions of Poser that don't have SSS.
Agree
Umh, I don't quite understand here, by default, are you saying that we could just apply HSS or US manually without the SSS maps for V4 custom character with custom texture maps ? Because what i've mentioned in the 1st post actually is the SSS maps as the mat. Or, if you could, maybe some product example would be appriciated. Thank you
What you're seeing has always been the case.
Whats new is the increased appearance of those notices about lack of support and testing in DS.
It means they now recognise DS users exist.
Its actually a bit of progress!!!
:-)
Just out of cursioisity, what product is it and what is the issue?
If the issue is a transmap that works the same in poser as it does in Daz to my understanding. The transmap may not have loaded automatically for some reason so just click the little down arrow next to opacity color and then browse to the textures and look for one that is hopefully labeled transparency or maybe has a TR appended to the name. In a pinch you can try loading another mat from say, diffuse or specular.
Or if it is something like glass, just manually turn down the opacity strength.
Just out of cursioisity, what product is it and what is the issue?
If the issue is a transmap that works the same in poser as it does in Daz to my understanding. The transmap may not have loaded automatically for some reason so just click the little down arrow next to opacity color and then browse to the textures and look for one that is hopefully labeled transparency or maybe has a TR appended to the name. In a pinch you can try loading another mat from say, diffuse or specular.
Or if it is something like glass, just manually turn down the opacity strength.
Yup, trans map which is the main selling point of the product (laced lingerie), I've tried to load every trans map and try them out with every single part of the lingerie, but the trans mapping is messed up, the transmap it self works, but the UV mapping is just screwed over. What weirds is that the diffuse texture is 2, k x 2, k resolution, but all the trans map waaaay below 512 x 512 resolution, and I had to used tiling with to even see the effect.
That what I'm trying to said, trans map isn't categorized as complex mat, it's not even shader. So in my mind, ah ok maybe it's the phyton blending color what the vendor mentioned being complex mats. When I used the trans map, I was like ".....WTH"
Yup, trans map which is the main selling point of the product (laced lingerie), I've tried to load every trans map and try them out with every single part of the lingerie, but the trans mapping is messed up, the transmap it self works, but the UV mapping is just screwed over. What weirds is that the diffuse texture is 2, k x 2, k resolution, but all the trans map waaaay below 512 x 512 resolution, and I had to used tiling with to even see the effect.
That what I'm trying to said, trans map isn't categorized as complex mat, it's not even shader. So in my mind, ah ok maybe it's the phyton blending color what the vendor mentioned being complex mats. When I used the trans map, I was like ".....WTH"
If it uses Python you're out of luck. That's the other thing I avoid. Daz doesn't support Python scripts to my knowledge which is a shame but oh well. You might still be able to fake it but it sounds like it has a small transmap that is then placed in selected spots by a python script maybe.
I did a quick search on Rendorosity and didn't see any lingerie called Laced Lingerie that looked like it did this but lingerie is a fairly big topic over there and I didn't look at all of them!
I can't use Genesis in my version of poser but I don't stop shopping for the figure, I just use the program I need for what I can and cannot use. Sure I would love to use Genesis more but I cannot afford to buy everything to make the figure work as I want and also break my Gen 4 wishlists down, but that is my choice.
Sorry but this Daz vs Poser bit is getting a little old, what happened to just buying stuff and calling it a day. If I cannot use certain items that I want I take a breath and move on or get the necessary items in order to use said item if I want it bad enough. So, I do not have the money to invest in Genesis completely, eventually I will but I am not going to boycott or put down Daz or the figure for it. Don't have any interest in Genesis 2 female but guess what there are some items I would love to use though will never be able to because I don't want the figure, once again my choice. Either I can run with the pack or stay behind, it will only hurt me if I allow it, not everyone else.
The vendors sell what they want, they are doing what they can with the resources that they have at their disposal just the same as their customers.
Unfortunately in this day and age you cannot please everyone.
One of the first 3D clothing outfits I purchased years ago from Content Paradise that an artist had textures for the dress that was in it that didn't work at all in DAZ Studio 3, and the product description gave no mention or clear indication that it would not work in DAZ Studio, the product page seemed to imply that that it would work in DAZ.
A product description ought to list clearly if it works in both programs or just one. Checking isn't a big deal for the artist as DAZ has had free versions for years that can be used.
Just saying something like "Poser product" doesn't help as Poser figures can be used in other program. Indicating which programs it was tested in needs to be in the product description.
Finally someone with the same opinion with me regarding the importance of product description.
This is what I'm trying to say, they really need to have detailed, not going back and foward with the product description.
Which will end up people misunderstand them.
If the product have some unsupported feature for DAZ then tell us what is that. Also, as simple as write down "not recommended with DAZ", "Not tested with DAZ", "Only work with Poser".
If the product have a crucial feature that won't work with DAZ, then don't even type "Work in properly with DAZ, but....." because that "but..." is like they also want to gain profit form DAZ user, but doesn't even care a bit for the customer value.
If they want to gain profit from both side, then do it properly like how they mention "properly" so easily in their promo page.
Well I could only hope more artist and vendor can work their way here to DAZ store.
Now, that vendors produce items for DAZ figures that don't work in DS is fairly normal. It's the standard, actually, as far as I know, and has been that way roughly since the...erm...the big bang, thank you prixat.
So it doesn't really bother me.
What does bother me is items that are sold as 'working in DS' items, but are very obviously way inferior to the Poser version. I understand that you can not replicate any effect you can get in Poser in DS or sometimes vice versa. But so many times, DS presets are just plain horrible. If you're not going to make acceptable presets, then, please, by all means, don't bother making any at all.
I love the products of coflek-gnorg over at Renderosity, but I'll never understand why he can find the time to create an entire guide on how to make his products look good in DS for every single product, but not to just create the necessary presets himself.
But it's not just at Renderosity. There's quite a few items sold at the DAZ store that (going by the promo shots) look good in Poser. And bad in DS - which is a reason why I really wished all promos were clearly labeled with what application was used for rendering and that, if something is supposedly compatible with 2 programs, there was the same amount of promo shots for every application.
Fun thing is, I just started going back to DS for a few renders, after using Reality and a bit of Luxus for rendering for a long time. I figured, "hey, at least you won't have to edit every single damn surface in the entire scene - just use only DS items". Well, guess what happened...
Even items that only work in DS don't always come with decent materials -.-
And really, it's not that hard to set up acceptable material presets for DS. And doing non-embarassing promo shots for DS isn't that hard either, btw. Not if you're going to sell your stuff. For characters, just take an hour or two to read through AoA's manual for the SubSurface Shaders, take a look at the surface settings of any Gen6 figure and you're pretty much good to go. I don't think that's asking a lot.
I'm fortunate enough to own a version of Poser where I can use the Genesis figures as well as the old (but still great) Gen 4 figures, but I applaud what you said above. The really stupid thing about the DS vs Poser thing is that it's mostly just the buyers that try to keep it going. The companies get along just fine.
I, for one, hope to eventually be as proficient in DS as I am in Poser. I already know my way around DS well enough to make the conversions I want to use stuff in my preferred Poser. If someone just wants to use one program, that's cool, but enjoy what's made for you and stop b*tching about what you can't use. There are just as many DS products that Poser users are envious of as the other way around.
Besides, in my opinion, most of the very best stuff that's even worth being envious of will work in newer versions of both programs anyway. I've successfully gotten both The Genesis Supersuit and Spex for Genesis, two products that don't support Poser, to work in Poser very well.
Simple solution, vote with your wallet. Let the marketplace sort it out.
If you want to be very kind to the vendor and be proactive then message the vendors that make items you WOULD buy if they were supported in DAZ and let them know. A simple "I like your product and would buy it if it was for DAZ" is enough.
Let me clear this up for you.
You just buy a product that clearly has this product description "Works in DAZ, or Tested in DAZ, OR Work Properly with DAZ".
But then when you tried that product, it just didn't work properly, not just minor things but crucial enough that make the product almost useless with DAZ, and some you could just throw it out to the recycle bin right away.
Because no matter what you do, it just not intended for DAZ, but instead the vendor still tell us that it was "tested in DAZ and work properly".
I do have some products that need one or two work around to make them works in DAZ, that is just tolerable. But some product just won't work whatever you've done.
Not everyone could find a solution to their product problem IF there is a solution anyway. You couldn't just think that everyone have the same knowledge like you do and say "stop b*tching", maybe some of them only casual user.
*Note:
Btw, if any Administrator visit this page, please do close this thread up, since I already got most the answer by someone through PM.
Thank you