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  • FSMCDesignsFSMCDesigns Posts: 12,848
    Dogz said:

    Thats cool, I meant - burn out though sales, for the latest Character / Outfit / what have you, Depends on the indervidual product too of course, but its generally a noticable pattern that the overall reception seems to start dropping around that time, just because the market starts to get abit saturated with content for that given Gen.

     

    Dosn't help when the same types of addons keep getting produced while others still have never been made or made back in the v4 days. I am a huge fan of skimpwear, but even i have reached a point where I am very picky on what i get.

  • DogzDogz Posts: 912
    edited July 2019

    Im picky too, but (espcially since dforce,) Id argue that overwhelming amounts of skimp is less of a problem than it used to be.

    but yeah, trends come and go. And sometimes you end up with multiple varients of the same thing from different vendors.

    Post edited by Dogz on
  • namffuaknamffuak Posts: 4,459

    The left end of my sig expresses my view. In computers and software; we are always running the Red Queen's race to keep up. There are times when we need to step back and see if the race has any meaning for us anymore.I quit the rat race and got off the politics/internal upgrade treadmill when I retired 10 years ago. I upgraded to Win 7 Pro and got off the Microsoft treadmill 5 years ago - until such time as Studio will no longer run on Windows 7 Pro. And then I'll need to decide if I'm off the Daz treadmill; so far, I've been enjoying what I can do with Iray, dForce, and the messes I can make with Strand-Based Hair.

    I did get lucky - if I can call it that - about the time Iray came out; my Dell t7400 died the death and a week later I sold assets I was not aware of for enough to cover a state-of-the-art new system sans GPUs. 8 months later I managed to afford a 980 TI and 12 months after that a 1080.

    In any case, I have enough content and ideas to keep me busy for years without buying anything else. And, if it comes to this, several modeling programs to use in making my own content.

  • wolf359wolf359 Posts: 3,942

    In any case, I have enough content and ideas to keep me busy for years without buying anything else. And, if it comes to this, several modeling programs to use in making my own content.


    And that sir is the true definition of liberation..trust me on this.

    knowing that I can support Genesis1, 2 & 3 indefinately with new, custom clothing and morphs, created to my specific needs, is the best position to be in ..and the most cost effective.

  • Dim ReaperDim Reaper Posts: 687
    RitaCeleste said:
    Dim Reaper said:

    A huge part of DAZ's marketing is to make us feel that we all need the latest figures, latest dForce clothing, latest strand hair etc.  I fall for that as much as anyone else, but sometimes it is necessary to take a step back and ask yourself why you want to buy something new.  If you have a large collection of Genesis 3 figures and add-ons, then you can make images that are just as good as those made by someone with all the latest Genesis 8 figures. 

    I stopped shopping with Daz for about 5 years because I wasn't happy with some of their business decisions.  However, I looked in about 2 years ago, liked the newer models and decided to give Daz Studio another go.  During those 5 years of not shopping here though, I continued to use what I had to make images.

    As for the dForce hair, I agree that it feels unfair that Daz have added a new feature and then restricted access to it.  Personally though, the reason that I buy content is that I either don't have time, or am too lazy to make my own content, so missing out on those tools isn't really a huge loss.

    If you enjoy making 3D art, then do it - don't let the idea that there are newer things in the store spoil your enjoyment and use of your own collection.

    Yeah,  I have the stuff to put gen 8 stuff on G3.  I have decided to work on getting my clothes to fit Gen 8 and then I can move them back to Gen 3 as needed and they are ready for the next upgrade.  I like making shaders and playing with the outfits and making characters.  There are some artists I like and will collect their things but for the most part I am moving to as needed buying.  I will buy a scene because I am standing a girl in it and rendering it in 10 minutes. I got sucked into sales and upgrading early on.  I am just not onboard with PA only features.  It was such a daunting task to make the shader sets I wanted to use and fit the clothing items to the current character, get all the stuff for character building I never had time to make images.  My computer died and my shaders were not backed up or all the reworks I had done on my seamless tiles.  It was always easier to check the sales and say when I have x,y, z, then I can make characters.  I am past that point now. there won't be much in my wish list for awhile.  There is no reason to punish myself or artists I like just because I dislike a few things Daz does.  But I do have other things I like to do as well and I am cutting the budget over-all for this hobby.  I have spent a lot, I have a lot of stuff to work with.  Maybe I'll save up for 3dcoat or something.

     

    I'm glad to hear that you aren't giving up on 3D art completely, and being discerning in buying new content is something that a lot of us need to be better at.  If anything, the challenge of adapting existing content for new situations, and kit-bashing is good for the 3D artist's creativity overall.  Keep doing what you enjoy - that's what art is all about.

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 42,052
    Dogz said:

    Thats cool, I meant - burn out though sales, for the latest Character / Outfit / what have you, Depends on the indervidual product too of course, but its generally a noticable pattern that the overall reception seems to start dropping around that time, just because the market starts to get abit saturated with content for that given Gen.

     

    ...yeah that is an issue, though there are still some products being released for both G3 and G8.

    Tried fitting some G8 clothing to G3, total fail. Hair works fine though if you do a manual fit.

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 42,052
    wolf359 said:

    In any case, I have enough content and ideas to keep me busy for years without buying anything else. And, if it comes to this, several modeling programs to use in making my own content.


    And that sir is the true definition of liberation..trust me on this.

    knowing that I can support Genesis1, 2 & 3 indefinately with new, custom clothing and morphs, created to my specific needs, is the best position to be in ..and the most cost effective.

    ...some of us have a very long road ahead to become even halfway decent at modelling so we still rely on pre made content.

  • TaozTaoz Posts: 10,288
    edited July 2019
    Wendy_Carrara said:
    Taoz said:
    Wendy_Carrara said:
    Serene Night said:

    C’est la vie. At some point if it is no longer fun then find something enjoyable. While it would be nice to have access to certain tools that’s the way businesss sometimes work, developer tools are use by specifics developers and not by the general public.

    nothing forces you to upgrade or from learning how to do some of the things you want independently though.

     

    or you wait for alternatives heart

    I prefer VWD to Dforce for clothes too, in animations it does not explode yes

    Hm, so it wasn't a waste of money that I bought it couple of years ago? BTW, reminds me that it maybe will work with my old CPU (dForce won't).

    Though I guess it won't be useful if you want to create commercial dForce stuff for DS.

    give it another go but grab latest updated files from Rendo

    Well I've never tried VWD, since dForce appeared before I got myself together to give it a go (hoard now, use later). And I thought dForce made it obsolete so I sort of gave up on it. But maybe it's worth giving a try.  

    Post edited by Taoz on
  • WendyLuvsCatzWendyLuvsCatz Posts: 40,445
    Taoz said:
    Wendy_Carrara said:
    Taoz said:
    Wendy_Carrara said:
    Serene Night said:

    C’est la vie. At some point if it is no longer fun then find something enjoyable. While it would be nice to have access to certain tools that’s the way businesss sometimes work, developer tools are use by specifics developers and not by the general public.

    nothing forces you to upgrade or from learning how to do some of the things you want independently though.

     

    or you wait for alternatives heart

    I prefer VWD to Dforce for clothes too, in animations it does not explode yes

    Hm, so it wasn't a waste of money that I bought it couple of years ago? BTW, reminds me that it maybe will work with my old CPU (dForce won't).

    Though I guess it won't be useful if you want to create commercial dForce stuff for DS.

    give it another go but grab latest updated files from Rendo

    Well I've never tried VWD, since dForce appeared before I got myself together to give a go (hoard now, use later). And I thought dForce made it obsolete so I sort og gave up on it. But maybe it's worth giving a try.  

    They are both dynamics engines but not the same just as Optitex is different and Poser different again

    some things Dforce does better such as more polygons others VWD excels in such as stuff not needing to be welded and pinning(nailing) I find all useful 

  • TaozTaoz Posts: 10,288
    Wendy_Carrara said:
    Taoz said:
    Wendy_Carrara said:
    Taoz said:
    Wendy_Carrara said:
    Serene Night said:

    C’est la vie. At some point if it is no longer fun then find something enjoyable. While it would be nice to have access to certain tools that’s the way businesss sometimes work, developer tools are use by specifics developers and not by the general public.

    nothing forces you to upgrade or from learning how to do some of the things you want independently though.

     

    or you wait for alternatives heart

    I prefer VWD to Dforce for clothes too, in animations it does not explode yes

    Hm, so it wasn't a waste of money that I bought it couple of years ago? BTW, reminds me that it maybe will work with my old CPU (dForce won't).

    Though I guess it won't be useful if you want to create commercial dForce stuff for DS.

    give it another go but grab latest updated files from Rendo

    Well I've never tried VWD, since dForce appeared before I got myself together to give a go (hoard now, use later). And I thought dForce made it obsolete so I sort og gave up on it. But maybe it's worth giving a try.  

    They are both dynamics engines but not the same just as Optitex is different and Poser different again

    some things Dforce does better such as more polygons others VWD excels in such as stuff not needing to be welded and pinning(nailing) I find all useful 

    OK, so they're sort of complementary, that's nice. Thanks.

  • nicsttnicstt Posts: 11,715
    Taoz said:
    Wendy_Carrara said:
    Serene Night said:

    C’est la vie. At some point if it is no longer fun then find something enjoyable. While it would be nice to have access to certain tools that’s the way businesss sometimes work, developer tools are use by specifics developers and not by the general public.

    nothing forces you to upgrade or from learning how to do some of the things you want independently though.

     

    or you wait for alternatives heart

    I prefer VWD to Dforce for clothes too, in animations it does not explode yes

    Hm, so it wasn't a waste of money that I bought it couple of years ago? BTW, reminds me that it maybe will work with my old CPU (dForce won't).

    Though I guess it won't be useful if you want to create commercial dForce stuff for DS.

    I like and use both; there is a new beta release that works with 4.11, and imo is an improvement over the original.

  • nicsttnicstt Posts: 11,715
    Dogz said:
    cdpro_2831bbd990 said:
    RitaCeleste said:
    The real crisis for many will be when a newer and better render engine comes out that requires all new materials.  I can only hope there will be some great conversion tools when that happens.  Because, I have a huge library of clothing models and Iray shaders.  The expense to redo all of those would be immense.

    A new render engine is a total nightmare for vendors too. Iray did some Vendors in, It almost did me in too, lol. 

    But It has to be done sometimes in the name of progress....

    Like any market, If this one stands still for too long - it stagnates and then collapes.

    Its noticable for Daz figure generations which have about a 3 year life cycle, and often by year 3 you can start to feel the burn out.

    Like Kyoto on G3, I'm not feeling burnt out on G8. I like to see the new ideas that keep appearing.

    When G9 appears, I'll buy the first pro bundle, before I've decided to move on. Doesn't matter to me if it's Victoria or Gia. Gia 8 I don't own and have never bought any of them. To my mind, Victoria sells well because she's first, not because she's iconic.

  • TaozTaoz Posts: 10,288
    nicstt said:
    Taoz said:
    Wendy_Carrara said:
    Serene Night said:

    C’est la vie. At some point if it is no longer fun then find something enjoyable. While it would be nice to have access to certain tools that’s the way businesss sometimes work, developer tools are use by specifics developers and not by the general public.

    nothing forces you to upgrade or from learning how to do some of the things you want independently though.

     

    or you wait for alternatives heart

    I prefer VWD to Dforce for clothes too, in animations it does not explode yes

    Hm, so it wasn't a waste of money that I bought it couple of years ago? BTW, reminds me that it maybe will work with my old CPU (dForce won't).

    Though I guess it won't be useful if you want to create commercial dForce stuff for DS.

    I like and use both; there is a new beta release that works with 4.11, and imo is an improvement over the original.

    OK, still on 4.10 though so I guess the official release will work.

  • algovincianalgovincian Posts: 2,670
    Wendy_Carrara said:
    Taoz said:
    Wendy_Carrara said:
    Taoz said:
    Wendy_Carrara said:
    Serene Night said:

    C’est la vie. At some point if it is no longer fun then find something enjoyable. While it would be nice to have access to certain tools that’s the way businesss sometimes work, developer tools are use by specifics developers and not by the general public.

    nothing forces you to upgrade or from learning how to do some of the things you want independently though.

     

    or you wait for alternatives heart

    I prefer VWD to Dforce for clothes too, in animations it does not explode yes

    Hm, so it wasn't a waste of money that I bought it couple of years ago? BTW, reminds me that it maybe will work with my old CPU (dForce won't).

    Though I guess it won't be useful if you want to create commercial dForce stuff for DS.

    give it another go but grab latest updated files from Rendo

    Well I've never tried VWD, since dForce appeared before I got myself together to give a go (hoard now, use later). And I thought dForce made it obsolete so I sort og gave up on it. But maybe it's worth giving a try.  

    They are both dynamics engines but not the same just as Optitex is different and Poser different again

    some things Dforce does better such as more polygons others VWD excels in such as stuff not needing to be welded and pinning(nailing) I find all useful 

    Pinning is excellent in dForce using influence weight maps. Not only can you do soft selection pinning, but if you dforce a conformer, you can paint which parts get simmed and which parts remain conforming. This is only possible because it's native.

    dForce is also useful for making morphs since it doesn't mess with the geo, which I believe VWD does (in part in order to handle non-welded pieces).

    - Greg

     

  • WendyLuvsCatzWendyLuvsCatz Posts: 40,445

    this is a VWD simulation (slow motion) of a DForce dress that just exploded if I tried animation

    yes DForce has the huge advantage of not changing the mesh, as I said each has its strengths and I use both, it’s not an either or thing

    but since the Dforce strand based  hair is PA only the new upcoming developments are looking interesting 

  • nelsonsmithnelsonsmith Posts: 1,337

    This is similar to the same mindset I see in photography and film.   You've got people that believe you can't make videos unless you're doing it on the newest toy with the latest gimmicks, or the newest software, or else you're a dinosaur.

    My thing is I can point to art made with tools that precede the newest upgrade, or equipment, and that people still watch and enjoy.  If you're incapable of at least equaling the quality of that, what is newer stuff going to do for you?  There is incredible art out there still being made using Genesis 2 figures, why would Gen8 or what ever comes down the pike stop you if you just want to create stuff?

  • nelsonsmithnelsonsmith Posts: 1,337
    nelsonsmith said:

    This is similar to the same mindset I see in photography and film.   You've got people that believe you can't make videos unless you're doing it on the newest toy with the latest gimmicks, or the newest software, or else you're a dinosaur.

    My thing is I can point to art made with tools that precede the newest upgrade, or equipment, and that people still watch and enjoy.  If you're incapable of at least equaling the quality of that, what is newer stuff going to do for you?  There is incredible art out there still being made using Genesis 2 figures, why would Gen8 or what ever comes down the pike stop you if you just want to create stuff?  No one is forced to upgrade.

     

  • RAMWolffRAMWolff Posts: 10,366
    Wendy_Carrara said:
    Serene Night said:

    C’est la vie. At some point if it is no longer fun then find something enjoyable. While it would be nice to have access to certain tools that’s the way businesss sometimes work, developer tools are use by specifics developers and not by the general public.

    nothing forces you to upgrade or from learning how to do some of the things you want independently though.

     

    or you wait for alternatives heart

    I prefer VWD to Dforce for clothes too, in animations it does not explode yes

    There is a product in the store for d-Force clothing that has a ton of options and one of the options is a fix to keep clothing from exploding.  

    https://www.daz3d.com/dforce-master-cloth-simulation-presets

  • The Inner CircleThe Inner Circle Posts: 234

    A lot of people are annoyed at Daz for locking the dforce tool for strand based hair to PA's only. Fair enough but I understand the business decision.

    They locked the HD morph feature to certain PA's as well - people found a way around it. People will work a way around dforcing strand hair as well.

    The obvious fix if it annoys you so much is to get a product published, voila you are a PA and have access to the dforce tool.

    As far as I am concerned I am genertically incapable of producing anything like that (yes I have tried, I am clueless) wso will make do with what I can do. I render daily, but assets that fill a need for something I want to do and happily pay my money to daz and the PA's for giving me access to software and assets that give me enjoyment.  They do the work, I pay them for that work. Sounds fair to me.

    David

  • AJ2112AJ2112 Posts: 1,417
    Dim Reaper said:

    A huge part of DAZ's marketing is to make us feel that we all need the latest figures, latest dForce clothing, latest strand hair etc.  I fall for that as much as anyone else, but sometimes it is necessary to take a step back and ask yourself why you want to buy something new.  If you have a large collection of Genesis 3 figures and add-ons, then you can make images that are just as good as those made by someone with all the latest Genesis 8 figures. 

    I stopped shopping with Daz for about 5 years because I wasn't happy with some of their business decisions.  However, I looked in about 2 years ago, liked the newer models and decided to give Daz Studio another go.  During those 5 years of not shopping here though, I continued to use what I had to make images.

    As for the dForce hair, I agree that it feels unfair that Daz have added a new feature and then restricted access to it.  Personally though, the reason that I buy content is that I either don't have time, or am too lazy to make my own content, so missing out on those tools isn't really a huge loss.

    If you enjoy making 3D art, then do it - don't let the idea that there are newer things in the store spoil your enjoyment and use of your own collection.

    +1

  • cdpro_2831bbd990cdpro_2831bbd990 Posts: 1,430
    nelsonsmith said:

    This is similar to the same mindset I see in photography and film.   You've got people that believe you can't make videos unless you're doing it on the newest toy with the latest gimmicks, or the newest software, or else you're a dinosaur.

    My thing is I can point to art made with tools that precede the newest upgrade, or equipment, and that people still watch and enjoy.  If you're incapable of at least equaling the quality of that, what is newer stuff going to do for you?  There is incredible art out there still being made using Genesis 2 figures, why would Gen8 or what ever comes down the pike stop you if you just want to create stuff?

    I work as a photo and video pro. I often run into hobbyists that have nicer and newer gear than I do. I have to use my gear every day for as long as it can do a good job. When it is time to get new gear, I have to budget what can get the best results for the lowest cost. Hobbyists aren't relying on the gear to earn a living. So, those that have extra cash will often buy gear that has way more bells than they will ever need, and then upgrade long before they've gotten good use out of what they own. I've met guys with $3000 cameras that shoot family photos on full auto. Most hobbies including this one are similar.
  • mrposermrposer Posts: 1,134

    DAZ could bundle the dforce hair toolset and the HD morph toolset into an advanced tools product and market it for $100 a pop. Then a year later after alot of folks have bought it, they could turn around and offer it free to everybody...... naaaa.... just kidding.... they would never do that. 

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 42,052
    edited July 2019
    nelsonsmith said:

    This is similar to the same mindset I see in photography and film.   You've got people that believe you can't make videos unless you're doing it on the newest toy with the latest gimmicks, or the newest software, or else you're a dinosaur.

    My thing is I can point to art made with tools that precede the newest upgrade, or equipment, and that people still watch and enjoy.  If you're incapable of at least equaling the quality of that, what is newer stuff going to do for you?  There is incredible art out there still being made using Genesis 2 figures, why would Gen8 or what ever comes down the pike stop you if you just want to create stuff?

    ...I still consider this my personal favourites and on of my best works.  Done in Daz 3.1, with 3DL and Gen4.

     

    leela child of war toon.jpg
    1600 x 1200 - 970K
    Post edited by kyoto kid on
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