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I'm not sad since now that I'm using sketchy, I need to redo every surface anyways
Ivy, my appoligies if you felt I was making a personal attack. It was not meant that way.
Sadly, not every PA, english speaking or not, has time to read the forums. And some never even look at them once. And then there is the fact that new PAs comming in may not want to learn 3DL. For long standing PAs, speaking from my own perspective, I would stop making 3DL mats if I felt they were no where up to par with the look of the Iray mats.
Thank you holden_attradies for starting this thread! Yes, I agree :iray takes signifigantly longer to render, even on a recently updated computer. I just can't get the number of images done with Iray and I stick to 3Delight. No, you are not the only one like this? I to; used to look at new releases, get excited, and then disappointed when I see that most of the cool new sets/props/backgrounds are optimized for iRay (no 3DL materials)? Until this thread and timmins.william's post! Thank you timmins.william, the converter works!
This changes everything; OMG, my credit card bill!
DiggrDude
I actually give preference to items that are Iray only because it shows that the mats were set up for my preferred render engine. Maybe not well, but it was the start point. Back when 3DL was still the major thing Iray mats tended to be rushed and...not so good.
No worries Matty . I did not take your comment as a personal attack. we are passionate artist & I love that. I just could see thing getting heated and I do tend to bring the best and worst out of others, so before I get scolded for bad behavior or turn this thread into a this is better than that,. it best to say my 2 cents and leave it at that. please no hard feelings
I wish I could use iray but my only working computer can not handle iray.
Ok, cool.
No, looks like you're right. But then the product page should mention this, IMO, when it claims she's DS compatible.
Sadie does include 3DL materials, but she probably loads with Poser settings and requires you to apply them manually.
You're right. I was actually looking for 3DL mats but couldn't find any but it was because I had overlooked the StudioCF file in DIM. Now she looks much better. Thanks!
I empathize with people who are unable to use iRay at the moment. I've been a confirmed Mac user for a decade. I received a new iMac a couple years ago, as a birthday gift. I reasoned that the new iMac would handle all my needs. I was correct, until I discovered that iRay was the new "thing" for DAZ Studio. Apple doesn't have a very good history with nVidia cards. My 1TB nVidia card won't handle iRay.
I really would like the ability to Make Art with iRay. I will never give up my Mac computers. I need to consider saving up some money to buy or build a suitable PC, just for DAZ Studio. It's slow going.
I only use 3Delight, not Iray.
For awhile I was prepared to buy a few things that only had Iray materials if I really, really wanted them for some specific purpose (though the bar was much higher). But now I will only buy products that provide at least basic 3Delight materials.
Some PAs here (and at Rendo and other places) have missed out on quite a few sales to me with products released this year that I would have bought if they'd had simple, basic 3DL materials too, but they didn't so I didn't. A number of Outoftouch clothing and hair products I would have bought; several Lyoness characters, assorted Sickleyield products, a bunch of Slide3D products; a load of Valendar's; the latest Porsimo; Raiya now; even SimonWM lately; a number of others. Plus of course the ones who never really supported 3DL, like Polish who I'd otherwise buy a lot from. And I was very sad to see one Iray only set even from Maclean, which was just about the last Iray only product I bought before deciding that was it and I would buy no more Iray only products at all
As to the whys and wherefores:
I don't use Iray for two reasons, either of which would be sufficient to keep me with 3Delight even without the other reason.
1 Speed.
On my machine, if I render a textured G3F with nothing else (no clothes, hair, props, environment) with just one light, an AoA SSS or UberSurface2 3DL render (with SSS) takes 24 minutes, and Awsome Skins 3DL render (also with its SSS) takes 2.4 minutes (yes, 1/10th), an Iray render (tried with several versions: DAZ settings, Sickleyield's product, EcVh0, some others) ... I've never taken it to completion, but at 24 minutes it was nowhere near convereged enough, still horribly speckly, completely unusable and still after the 30 mins, the longest I let it run. And the Awsome Skins 3DL skin looks better than any of the others while taking a tenth the time of the other 3DL shaders and far less than whetaver the Iray would have finally managed if I'd let it run to however far beyond the 30 minutes it would have actually taken to finish to an acceptable level, so guess which i choose to use.
2 Look of the result
A lot of Iray surfaces look pretty much photoreal - metals, glass, some stone, other things - and renders of vehicles, furnished rooms etc without people in look great to me. But renders of people don't. I have yet to see a DS Iray render of a Genesis 3 or 8 figure by anyone where the figure looks anything like as real as the furniture, cars, props etc. To me, everyone's Iray skin renders look like one or more out of: less real than a good 3DL render; like coloured wax, cellulose acetate, painted silicon etc, anything but actual skin; or the very best, which are the 'realest', but to me they are atill not quite real but just 'real' enough to fall screaming into uncanny valley territory, making the figure look like some android or alien attempt to replace people just-not-quite-right duplicates. I've read people's tutorials looking at their examples; I've looked at all the 'better Iray skin' products in the store and looked at their promos (where in many with before/after promos I think the 'before' actually looks better). Sorry - the skin (and most hair and actually many clothing materials, but the skin is the worst) is just nothing like as realistic as the rooms and props and weapons and vehicles etc. (Of course the fact that for people the figure shape and bending and detailed morphing isn't enteirely realistic doesn't help, but it's the materials that jar me most.) Doesn't matter if you render portraits against abstract backgrounds so the unreality of the skin isn't thrown into relief by more realistic surroundings; but I don't do that, I render stories with people in places doing stuff with things, and the difference in reality between the Iray surroundings and props and the character JARS me. It's a horrible discord. I can lose myself in a cartoon and suspend disbelief. When young I could fall into and accept puppets in model backgrounds, like original Thunderbirds and Captain Scarlet (though I was jarred out of the story on those occasions they did a close-up on a real hand operating a control instead of the puppet's hand). But I like my reality - or unreality - level to be constant. Really don't like things that mix cartoon characters in live action surroundings and vice versa (unless it's for comedy, which my rendering isn't). And for me every Iray render with people in I find horribly discordant and jarring.
That's me. We are different with different tastes. i don't expect everyone - or anyone, even - to agree with me, but that's how I react to 3D renders at a deep, instinctive level.
And as I found a try at the other possible solution of trying to alter all the PA prop, room, furniture, vehicle, weapon etc product Iray materials to give a matching level of unreality as I see in the character materials extremely difficult, I am sticking with the solution of just not using Iray but rather staying with 3Delight where matching reality (or unreality) level beteen people and everything else is easy.
So, for speed AND because Iray people aren't anything like as realistic as the settings, props etc, I stick with 3DL.
And here's the thing. Due to their start points in history, there are many 3DL products that can be applied to Poser material surfaces and they convert everything that needs converting - like what map goes into what channel; and there are many Iray products that can be applied to a 3DL surface and they convert everything that needs converting like picking up the maps and moving them to Iray channels. But 3DL shaders do not pick up everything that needs converting from an Iray material surface. It is in fact quicker and easier to convert Poser materials to 3DL than Iray materials to 3DL (and I've got a lot of Poser content, now easy to convert to whatever figure and to 3DL materials).
So ...
I pay for stuff so I don't have to make it myself, and to do the least amount of work on it before rendering. I don't look at products and think of things to render with it; I think up stories, see what's what, what looks like what before starting the 3D stuff, and then have to make what I need for what I already 'see' in my head out of what I've got or can buy. Almost everything has to be customized from the nearest thing i can get to what I actually need to recreate the image in my head. I have to morph and/or cut mesh, customize textures, mix things between products. And using the computer is always only for as long as I can against mounting pain.
I am NOT going to spend money on products with no 3DL materials where I have to spend time and pain just re-finding and re-setting the maps that disappeared or ended up in the wrong 3DL channels after applying a 3DL shader to an Iray surface. Just not happening any more. I pay for a PA to do some of the work instead of me; I'm going to have to do enough work after buying without Iray to 3DL conversion.
Now, this is just me, but when I say I need 3DL materials with a product, I do NOT need materials that are as good as or fully replicate the Iray ones. I just need 3Delight materials, frankly, that apply all the maps to the standard 3Delight channels, and I don't care at all about anything else. As long as I've got that, I'm probably not going to use the PA's DAZ Default or UberSurface or AoA SSS settings or even chosen 3DL shader anyway. Because I've got masses of 3Delight materials, and for pretty much anything there'll be a good one with settings I like, and I can just apply it over the PA's 3Delight surface - quite possibly changing shader, e.g. Awesome Skins over AoA SSS - with ignore maps set. Just seconds and a click. PROVIDED THE PA HAS SUPPLIED A 3DELIGHT MATERIAL THAT SETS ALL THE MAPS in standard 3DL channels. I don't want, don't need and probably won't even use fancy 3Delight materials to try to replicate all the Iray looks. I JUST NEED 3DELIGHT MATERIALS THAT SET ALL THE MAPS. Past that, I don't care if they render black or radioactive or anything as they are 'cos I'll be applying some other 3DL settings anyway - just set the maps in 3Delight!
Therefore, if you are a PA and you want me as a customer you must supply at least basic 3Delight materials that set the standard maps in the standard 3DL channels - diffuse, bump, displacement, normal, specular, opacity (or other Iray channel names/image typess that can be used for any of those in 3DL), SSS optiional. And I really don't care how simple or complex those materials are, I'm probably going to overwrite them anyway, as long as they set the maps for 3Delight. Now, I don't buy anything just because it has 3DL materials, it has to be something I want for some reason. but without basic map setting 3DL support I simply will not buy any of your products. Full stop (or 'Period' as our transatlantic frineds would say).
N.B.
1) I seldom visit the forums, so deciding to supply basic 3DL map setting materials for you product as an add-on from e.g. the Freebies forum or an announcement thread won't work; I'm very unlikely to see it and therefore think I can buy your product. I look on producvt pages, and check for 3Delight materials in the file_list from the ReadMe page if I'm otherwise interested in the product and want to be sure there are no 3DL materials.
2) Getting to be too many Iray only material freebies in the PC+. I keep on finding I'm not spending all my monthly vouchers, so if I'm not getting value in freebies with 3DL support either I'll be quitting the PC+. No point if I'm not getting anything I want.
Can't you still do iray in CPU mode? I know it's not as fast as GPU but at least you'll still be able to play with it.
Hello David.
I think you will find that when you check your pm's, I have sent you a copy of the 3DL Preset that will convert the Iray skin to 3dl. I hope this makes it easier to use LY Zara in your renders.
At first I was really hesitant about Iray because it was confusing, a lot of the earlier products released for it weren't so great, and a raft of other reasons. It took me a while to get on board, so I can understand the frustration. Having used Daz Studio for about 6 years now, it seemed like a really major change.
I've just looked through my files out of curiosity, and it seems the last time I did a 3Delight render at all was over a year ago; last time I finished some artwork based on 3Delight was 2015. And my computer is about 4-5 years old, and wasn't remotely top of the line then (and, more to the point, it doesn't have an Nvidia card) so it runs Iray like crap, with renders often taking 16+ hours to be acceptable quality -- and I'd still rather use it.
--A
Well said sir. I also check first, and ignore any offering marked Iray only, or 'Optimised for Iray. I now even ignore any offerings from PAs who have announced their intention to produce Iray Only products. This has been a great time(and money)saver. I'm not interested in arguments about which is the better process, but I've been using DAZ for many years (since just before DAZ3 arrived) and am one of those people who bought my DAZ Pro copy as soon as it was launched. AND I love my DAZ now just as I did then.
I have no wish to abandon the programme and I have so much 'stuff ' that even if DAZ do decide our custom is now no longer important, I reckon I'll be kept amused until I pop me cloggs (I mean Im 75 now soon...)
However, I do feel the people at DAZ are making a mistake in the direction they're taking.
Vinny
This and similar threads got my musing about what I'd want to see to make it even easier to convert shaders to 3DL. And Esemwy obliged!
https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/196421/search-and-select-surfaces-in-daz-studio
Between that and the other Esemwy script, it is PRETTY EASY to convert Iray to 3DL.
3Delight is a very powerful renderer... even in limited fashion inside DAZ Studio. It does shadows fantastic and quick. You can easily create great lighting in minutes. It's very forgiving for newbies. You don't even need the AoA or Uber stuff... that feel can be done in postwork. SSS is overrrated if the character is ten feet away or more.
The free convertor script is awesome - thanks so much for that!!
I just think IRAY is the new thing. Vendors have to do less work to prepare their textures so they're loving it.
I'd have to invest the amount of money I could buy a car with for a graphics card just to get a touch more realism with IRAY and then with realism comes all kinds of issues. The symmetry of a character's morphs and body. The weird pose that your eyes know can't work with gravity. Eyes that aren't both always looking in the exact same direction. Expressions that look fake. fake looking lighting. The more photoreal you go, the more the shortcomings of this art form scream for attention to the viewer. The shadows and hair will look photoreal but getting actual real life SSS is very damn hard. So the realistic hair texture points out to your eye that the skin looks fake... and the face is symmetrical and on and on... every realistic aspect points out the unrealistic looking elements.
But, it's the newest thing and everyone has to have it. It's keeping DAZ in business and the vendors so... good luck to them all.
I'm loving 3Delight.
Yeah, while I don't think Iray stuff is stuck in the Uncanny Valley, it's always close.
As my skills get better I'm realizing more and more how often hair or eyes just look bad in nearly every render. I'd say a good 99% of the Iray renders of people don't look right.
Camera and art filters really help make an image sing, but at that point the advantage of Iray is minimal.
Honestly, how many of us REALLY understand and utilize the broad capabilities of iray or any other shaders? And how many of us really understand and utilize iray (or any other render engine) lighting they way it should be used to really relect real-world lights (color, intensity, shadow, etc.)?
I'm guessing very very few of us. I know I sure fall in that category. So from that perspective, I think most renders I've seen in online forums (this one excepted of course) could have been done in whatever renderer was popular in the 90's.
I can't really agree with that (unless you are joking of course!). If I look back at some of the images I have seen that were done back in the old days of early Poser versions, where shadows were mimimal or non existant, then even Iray renders done by rank amateurs look far superior, to my eyes at least. Just look at some of the promos done for the really old products (ie those with an early SKU number) and you will see what I mean. One would assume that those early promos were done by people that knew how to get the best out of what was available at that time. Grab that same product with the bad promo, use the default HDR, and maybe change a shader or two, and almost anyone could make those old promos look much better using the latest renderer.
Reading some of the comments in this thread, I do wonder why some people look at any of the new improvements in DS at all. Yes, Iray is not fully photo real at the moment, but that is not the same as saying it is the same quality as what we were getting 10+ years ago.
This is because of the incorrect eye& eyelid geometry
,sub par iris textures in general
and 1990's Kozborow transmapped hair that was designed
for poser 4.
3Delight's shader system and lighting capabilities are incredibly sensistive to all parameters. If I change shadow intensity from 2% to 5% in 3Delight it makes a big difference. That is potent. This ability to make minute changes to a scene makes 3Delight very powerful and open for each artist to get their own unique style. It's durable. It's tested. This is why Daz went with it. I can import Poser lights into a DAZ scene and 3Delight will interpret it like it was 3Delight lights. 3Delight is badass. My own opinion.
I am sure IRAY is great too. But I have content I bought from DAZ since 2002. In the shader field, IRAY is not as friendly to me as 3Delight. In old Poser stuff it's primarily just the specular and glossiness that has to be tweaked.
This hits a nerve. I think I had one set of iris textures that I genuinely loved and that was so far back with V4 I can't even remember. The new DT ones look pretty nice but I haven't had a chance to play around yet. A painful number of iris textures look like someone used this Photoshop tutorial. There must be some kind of difficulty with getting good merchant resources or something.
Same here. I picked up LY Zara because it didn't specify iRay and there were NO 'rendered with iRay' in the promos. Sigh.
I spent a pretty significant portion of my Daz history and spending with 3DL, _after_ starting with Iray, because I had a slower computer. It has its points, definitely. But I can't imagine not using AoA lights. However, I'm in love with light and bounce and caustics and since getting a new computer with a modern GPU the biggest reason to use Iray honestly is speed, even if I then postwork away all the photorealism. *shrug*. Being able to send the render to my GPU is a huge benefit.
But I do wish Daz would put some of those amazing 3DL capabilities that I keep hearing about into Studio.
I will work on providing a better 3dl option ... my current attempt was not as good as it needed to be.
it happens
Stuff that only comes with iray materials is iray-only. As in, "materials provided are iray-only."
@JQP. I stand by previous post. A mesh is a mesh and any shader for any render engine can be applied to it. The limiting factor is the end user not the model.