A new way to create Toon outlines?
Hermit Crab
Posts: 833
Hi folks,
Although mid 2018 isn't too far off, I've done nothing in 3d whatsoever this year apart from two brief posts in Diomede's art thread and a couple of renders. In spite of not keeping up I hope it won't seem out of place to start a new topic.
I wrote a long post on this which I tried to preview without saving and lost it! So here is the brief version:
I've noticed that some models shown on the Sketchfab site have Toon outlines which remain no matter how the model is rotated. Two examples:
https://sketchfab.com/models/29dc40920af44e5699ed7613a1a26caf
https://sketchfab.com/models/93135b76a4344e32b53c675513eac8c5?ref=related
When I view these in wireframe mode (an icon at the bottom of the viewing window opens a Model Inspector), I notice that the models have an outer shell which I guess is textured on the inside only.
For simplicity, let's imagine a sphere textured as a planet. This model planet has an outer sphere which is just slightly larger and together these are the planet model.
The outer sphere is textured black on the inside only. This makes it see-through except at its edges where it curves away and the camera can glimpse inside. So when the model is rotated, the viewer sees the planet as the textured inner sphere but with a black outline.
I don't know whether Carrara can paint objects on the inside only (I tried) and I know little about the part that may be played by reversed normals. Neither do I know whether this is already a familiar technique but I hope someone may find it interesting and perhaps find a way to do it in Carrara.
A good way to make an outer shell of a model (in Hexagon, at least) would be to use the Add Thickness tool.
Best regards to all.
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Comments
I know Oso3D used geometry shells that way in DAZ studio
Fenric has toward away shader that might work and you could cull backfaces if the second mesh had reversed normals, maybe a second conformed figure or fullbody suit
Salve-te Marcus.
Perhaps rather than add thickness, one could use duplicate and then scale to 101%. Then use the "toon override" and try to preserve the outline but set toon effect to 0? Might be a silly idea.
Is there a GMIC filter that can get close? We had a recent challenge in which people had to get an outline. Several different methods were used. Might check the WIP thread there.
Thanks so much, Wendy and Diomede, for your replies.
As I should have suspected more strongly, it seems that others have already 'been there and done that'. I had wondered whether the models seen in Sketchfab were created in Maya, or Max (using some plug-in perhaps) and thought the technique might have been worth mentioning to try out in Carrara.
Wendy, I don't think there is anything in this hobby you haven't kept track of! The term you used - 'geometry shell' - would have saved me a lot of typing! My quick attempt to reverse normals didn't seem to work but I admit I only tried briefly. Like me, you will be very familiar with the default textures in Iclone (and even in Poser with certain display settings) being one-sided so maybe I should make an attempt there rather than Carrara.
I can't think actually of many practical uses for this technique. I suppose a scene could have a single toon-like character when the rest is rendered normally. It could be used for a toon fairy godmother or some such - the kind of thing that was done in traditional ways in films such as 'Mary Poppins'. But this kind of toon-outlined object or character would catch lights and shadows rather than the 'cel-shading' look. Other applications might be to load toon-like objects into virtual reality but that's way beyond anything I'm ever likely to do.
@Diomede - yes, duplicating and scaling would do also, I think, if the items were grouped or parented and shared the same hot-point.
Your other suggestions are outwith my experience, alas. I didn't see the challenge, unfortunately and haven't learned anything of GMIC filters or 'toon-override'. These are my own shortcomings but I thank you for suggesting these avenues. I hope that perhaps anyone else interested will benefit from your suggestions more than I can at this point.
As mentioned above, I'm not finding much time for 3D work these days but will try to experiment over the weekend and hope to take a look at these ideas.
Regards to all.
Geometry shells are DS only but a second conforming figure could be a Carrara or iClone option
Thanks for the clarification, Wendy.
there's toon! pro
this is a render combing toon! part 111 an d toon! pro
Hi Headwax - thanks for showing these nice renders. From the times I've taken a look at the forums I saw that you've done a huge number of brilliant non-photorealistic work using all kinds of effects. I wish I could be even a tenth as productive as you and many others here are.
I think it's clear that great-looking toon outlines are already available without the need for the technique shown in the Sketchfab images.
But I think there is a fundamental difference in the toon outlines made in Carrara and the Sketchfab ones. Carrara renders a 2d image and, as far as I can see, the image is immediately 'processed' by the toon filter. This would be done for still renders and for every frame of an animation.
The Sketchfab models linked to in the original post carry a toon outline around with them as a 'shell' of vertices which are more or less a slightly scaled-up version of the main model. The outer shell of each model is invisible - I think the normals are reversed making it see-through ... except at the edges, because the camera manages to see the inside of the shell at the edges.
Because the shell is always there as part of the model, the edges the camera manages to see change all the time as the model is rotated. This gives a permanent toon outline to the actual model as opposed to a filter transforming a 2d render.
I've taken a close-up of one of the models I linked to showing the matcap view and also the final render. (I have no idea of what matcap is - but it shows the outer shell more clearly than does the wireframe view.)
The outer shell of vertices is there all the time but they are transparent to the camera except at the edges.
Sorry, here are the correct attachments - I got a bit mixed up with the correct files.
ah yes I see what you mean
I had a play with Fenrick's toward and away shader today - no joy
also had a look at anything goos - no joy
as an experioment I duplicated an M4 mesh and scaled it up then added it to the hip bone along with the original m4 mesh - no joy as it went cwazy as far as the weight maps
out of interest Toon1Pro appears to draw the lines before the render rather than afterward - but still same result in appearence
nice looking effect in those images you posted
Oh no! I feel bad that you went to so much trouble trying this out.
Having puzzled over it a bit more myself, I'm thinking that it is no more than just one more thing to know about for interest since toon effects do the job perfectly already for renders and animations.
But I owed it to you and others to try it out a bit. Today I made a sphere in Hexagon with reversed normals and I deleted a few of its faces. I put it into Carrara and placed a second sphere inside.
In carrara's View section of the General tab there is a box to tick for showing an object in 3d view. There are three buttons for Backfaces: Show, Smart and Hide. If Hide is selected then the simulated 'toon outline' shows in the scene view. I can't see a way to get it working in renders and honestly don't feel it is worth anyone's trouble to pursue.
But here are some screenshots to show the effect in scene view:
I meant to add that I rotated the camera a little to get the third view with the shell's missing faces.
On a personal note I'm aware of missing out on commenting on so many interesting topics and thank everyone for viewing this thread and those who commented.
I spend a great deal of my time looking after a severely disabled sister and am often only free to use the internet at the very end of the day before bed. Everyone else is no doubt equally busy so I thank all who are putting so much into the forum for the rest of us to relish.
HI Marcus :)
this is called Fall off,. or. a freznel effect,. normally found in transparent shaders,
like the effect of water or glass, seen at an angle you can see the through,. but at a different angle you only see the surface,.
Carrara's vertex modeller has an "Add Thickness" function too.,. I'd advise caution if you're using that approach on a model with eyes, teeth, tongue, eyelashes or any other tiny bit''s
You may be able to make a copy of the figure you're using,. scale the mesh a little (or use "Add thickess" and delete the inside) and then use Fit to, to conform it to the original figure (like a body suit) then apply your shader to that
Hope it helps :)
Thanks, 3DAGE, for the information and hints and for taking a look at the thread.
I'm unlikely to make any attempt at doing this with any complex figure and for the time being I'm content to see that there is a way to model the shell so that it gives a toon outline in certain display modes.
That's really the limitation to taking it any further: I can see the toon outline in the Assembly Room with the view settings shown above but don't see how to render it. Poser has a preview render mode, which might be a little better but, in the end, I think this may only be of academic interest. It does look good in certain Sketchfab models. The ones I linked to were found after a short search but I recall seeing some very good examples a while back, which made me wonder how it was done.
Anyway, I hope no-one wasted too much time with this.
This was interesting.... if you have Maya.. which I don't
Stezza, that video shows exactly how people are doing this - thanks for showing it!
At the end of watching it, You Tube proposed other videos to see and there were a couple of tutorials for using this technique in Blender. Here is a link to one of about eight minutes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4T1cDJryOI
If anyone ever considered uploading some of their toon models to Sketchfab, this might be something to try. I notice that the 'Staff Pick' awards in the Sketchfab world often go to lowish-poly toon items.
I must add that your own models are jaw-dropping in all respects and the speed of your output is incredible. Amazing work!
I tried a few things.
I have a single hip bone skeleton with duplicates of a toon character mesh in the same animation group. I've done about 15 minutes of experimenting with things like (a) applying a scene toon filter then using toon override for one of the meshes, (b) using "reverse normals" for one of the meshes, and (c) applying a glass shader to the larger mesh (not toon).
There is a difference in appearance among these results. Further experimenting may or may not lead somewhere useful.
Hello again, Diomede.
Thanks for experimenting and showing these results. I hope this is for your own interest because, having looked at this and seen the video linked to by Stezza, I am happy to have learned that the technique exists and can be done if there is a need to do so. For renders and animation, I think the existing methods in use are all that is needed. This other method is only of use if a model is presented for viewing in some form such as is provided on the Sketchfab site or maybe in virtual reality.
Nevertheless, when I saw your post, I had a very quick play around with a Poser character. The figure was exported to Hexagon as .OBJ , the normals were reversed and then it was brought back into Poser. I took only a little time to adjust scale and 'fit' so these are quite poorly done.
Here are four pics of the figure with the camera rotating round it. The cube was added for modesty!
I used Poser's preview render mode for this but Poser 11 actually has very good toon and comic-style render effects built in without going to this kind of trouble. Why Poser? It just seemed speedier to find a suitable character and I had tried Carrara already.
I took a stab at this. With a hint from 3DAGE above, I tried a shader with Transparency. I set the Color channel to Black, Set the Transparency Intensity to 100% and set the the 'Fresnel Term' to 100%. I then added a Value to the Refraction channel and set it to 30%. It's important to note when it comes to dialing in Transparency and it's associated sliders I am at a loss as to what they all do so I'm out of my league here - just an experiment.
Anyway, I made a simple vertex object, duplicated it, and scaled it up to 103%. Be sure to re-center the hot point and make sure the two objects are perfectly aligned or you may get some weird artifacts. For the Transparency object I also turned off Cast Shadows and Receive Shadows. Also turned off Cast shadows for the light.
All of this was a 'stab in dark' experiment, it may not be the exact look you are after and may by wonky on a complex character. Also, to me it looks like it 'dampens' the color of the object, but there may be ways to fix that.
First picture is without the duplicated object, second is with it. Last picture is a YouTube video of the object spinning.
Edited to add further thoughts
Here is another render in Poser using the Firefly engine. I was unable to use the latest engine, Superfly (which is based on Blender's Cycles) because I can't find a setting to make backfaces invisible.
DerertDude, we cross-posted but seeing your video, my reaction is WOW!
That is a very nice effect. The steps you took way out of my own league but I love the results.
Perhaps the thread has borne unexpected fruit!
I'm glad you got it working for you - looks like a cool effect! Yeah, I tried the method from Stezza's video with your hints of flipping the normals and hiding back faces. So close, but no way to render. :(
I tried the various Draft rendering options but no luck...
Thanks for the comments. Maybe the Carrara Borg Mind will offer some more suggestions. :)
I tried to render the little sphere thing above in Carrara but couldn't find a way either. But I'm absolutely not well-versed in all the possibilities. Your effect reminds me of the display of some modelling packages I saw a while back - I think one is MOI - Moments of Inspiration? I do like the effect.
@ Diomede, re-reading my last reply to you above, I hope it didn't sound dismissive, I'm interested in all you achieve.
To everyone else, sorry to bump the thread!
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Whoah, can't get distracted for a second around here. Great job, @Selina, @Marcus Severus, and @DesertDude.
@ Selina: That's fantastic work you've done there - the model, the effect and the animation - they all show great ability with Carrara.
3DAge's post sparked off some nice ideas and good outcomes!
I've never tried to make a shadow capture plane but remember seeing some amazing work using them a good while ago in composited scenes.
Thanks for sharing these ideas and results.
PS apologies Selina - I wrote this post earlier today and somehow failed to upload it!
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Thanks @Diomede.
Selina, that looks totally cool. After snapping myself out of being hypnotized by the colors, which technique did you use for the animation, if you don't mind me asking?
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I don't know if anyone has ever used Vector Style? It was around in the Cararra 5 days. For all I know it is now the native toon filter.