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I actually do find Edward 8 to be less masculine than I would like. Ivan 7 is much closer to what I am looking for but he isn't Conan either lol. Honestly, I think its all a matter of personal taste, and we buy what we personally need for the art we do. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the models for the male 7 and 8 line other than the fact that they don't fit my personal esthetics or preferences. I have purchased numerous 7 and 8 males and do use them on occaision. I would just buy a lot more if they fit what I was personally looking for.
https://www.daz3d.com/pete-for-genesis-8-male-s
I'm a little baffled when people want only characters and feel put upon by the idea of customizing or mixing or dial spinning new characters.
Yes, it's just a hobby, but in most hobbies I know of, people put in ABSURD amounts of time tying their own flies, painting miniatures, practicing their swing, and so on.
So, uh, tinker?
Why is it baffling? Clearly it is obvious characters especially young white female ones sell like hotcakes in the store. . It’s not hard to see there is a large market for unaltered samey characters. Or ready made female content...
I’m honestly not sure why People think those who want male characters should not want this same thing... a Ready made male figure.
yes people can dial in their own figures using morphs. But they still should be able to ask for new figures just as those who receive female characters and content daily and constantly getting....
There are plenty of people who use the figures to produce art in the course of their work and who don't see it as a hobby and, time being money, would rather not have to tinker if they can earn more from using an out-of-the-box solution than taking hours to roll their own.
I'm laughing at the characterization of all the DAZ male 3D model as effete, It would be their clothing and accessories that would be effete but all that armour and fighting gear that comes with the DAz 3D characters wouldn't really fall in that category.
There is actually little I would call supplied with DAZ 3D male models as being effete except those all too often fastidiously consciously messy hairstyles that they get and that awful overprocessed facehair. I guess I see agree with DAZ male models being effete if you take that angle.
There are good fibre hair options now and also some believably groomed options like Ryan hair but it seems that the hair that comes with the DAZ pro bundles is choosen for it's ineffectiveness as a desirable hair model to use with the DAZ human models.
Serene Night: What's baffling is that in nearly every hobby I'm familiar with, people sometimes put INCREDIBLY long hours into perfecting and tweaking and adjusting and learning their hobby.
Except this one?
I mean, I totally get wanting more male content. It's just some of the arguments seem weird to me.
+1
@tj_1ca9500b I think the Swole shapes probably took the place of Freak so I wouldn't count on that one.
I suspect population demographics don't matter nearly as much as purchasing demographics.
I'I think one difference not discussed yet is publishng habits. I almost never publish anything, others publish something new every few days. I think for those who have a strong drive to publish regularly (due to client deadlines or personal preferences) the need for new content burns fairly intensely. Doesnt take more than a dozen renders to use up most of the best content availabe for males. People like myself who publish twice a year can afford to spin dials and do all kinds of stuff. But for those who need to hatch things faster, a ready made character with all the clothing and skins and everything customized for that character at first feels like a time saver and step in the right direction. But as time passes and additional content for said character stops flowing people then feel left with a character they cant use beyond the original bundle they purchased, making them dependent on the next bundle.
Most people using 3D content appear to want a fast fix... I guess pas should be grateful buyers seem to like to buy the same thing otherwise the wash rinse and repeat creators would be out of business... And would have to dig deeper to make less repetitive content...
in the end it’s a hobby for lots of folks, if they are happy and content then I’m happy for them too.
Maybe those are by and large the people who end up as merchants? And so they 'disappear' from the user side of the hobby?
I was thinking of him, and also:
https://www.daz3d.com/ronen-character-hair-and-briefs-for-genesis-8-male
I think part of what gets overlooked is that if you want similarly built women, or older women, or larger women than the DAZ family, you need to use morph packs or rely on vendor characters like these for the most part as well. It isn't like there are tons of options for all female body types and men get left out of that, there are a lot of options for a few very specific body types for women. I mean, isn't that what half the complaints about the new character have been about, that it is too similar to others?
Mika is selling well though. Forum members may think she is similar but the reality is if she sells well people will make more of the same stuff. Forum members for the most part are an outspoken minority and do not represent the large group of folks who actually are buying this content.
Right there with ya!
...yes? I mean, the specific body types for women that I mentioned must sell well, otherwise they wouldn't keep making them. Mika selling well doesn't mean that the "offical" DAZ female figures aren't primarily within a range of a few specific body types for women?
Not at all. I agree... Simply stating the complaints here about Mika .. Really aren't representative of any market that the PAs really need to listen to, unfortunately for those who want change. If people truly want diversity... It would be selling. But it doesn't...
I concede you must have ALOT of morph packs for true variety
including both the aging and vascularity morphs.
I dialed in this "International fugitive" tough guy type
for the G2 male in less than five minutes.
Rendered in Blender via the teleblend script by Mcasual.
from back a few pages:
this.
If done with the right number of poly's in the right 'stretchy' places (bosom, groin, etc.), a Genesis1-like character could easily be the only mesh needed, covering both male and female characterization requirements for all but the most detail-oriented of us, esp. with the recent HD capabilities.
And what did a single gender w autofit do to the DAZ clothing, pose, morph, and skin market?... I believe the marketting dept folks had a *huge* sigh of relief when the Genesis2 gender-based re-separation process 'took' with the customer-base, as I personally appreciated how much $$ the Genesis1 single-mesh model was going to save me when it came to clothes, poses, morphs, skins, hair, and general workflow control (time). Brilliant! I thought! I can save 50% right out of the gate... Yeah, marketting and sales had to see that result and ...
I'm also quite certain that the split-gender and layered character model is pure business genius, given that *any* of the final resulting characters can (right now) be dialed, exported as a mesh, and re-imported as standalone FBM and PBM morphs, meaning that our having to take a base G8F (free), buy a V8, then buy and add a Mika, and buy and add a Sierra or who-ever to get a particular character is mechanically unnecessary for the PAs, who could *easily* base the final character off the base G8F mesh. I concede that being able to partially mix these layers can be useful, but ... to those who don't know better, this has a feel to it that describing further would probably get the post removed.
I have to acknowledge that the new characters have all seen improvements that are meaningful, in terms of industry standards and long-term technologies, but the backward compatiblity issues and costs of keeping up with each character family haven't been worth it for me in terms of 'better' renders in my own context. Especially when I believe that they could have simply improved upon the Genesis1 idea, bringing all of the G2/G3/G8 improvements into that initial single character model without any trouble at all. Just a guess/opionion.
Regarding Male vs Female product counts, business numbers confirm human nature: Most humans tend to favor certain characteristics relative to their opposite genders, and repeated studies and media history (male vs female porn?) confirm that males are more visually oriented (looks matter), and females are more apt to gravitate toward strength, power, social standing, and generally their mate's ability to protect and provide for her and their offspring. These are very general statements but auditably true across any sizable population (although I find the exceptions far more interesting than the norms, it doesn't change the norms...). DAZ and the PAs don't have to work very hard to confirm/justify their product choices, but it can be argued that if no Genesis1 products are offered, of course there are going to be no sales in that category this month, which is simply a self-reinforcing cycle... And... they *can't* know how many products I'll buy purely because of the Genesis1 compatibilty (e.g. the new X-morphs package). There's also the saturation issue. Over time, we get the stuff we like, and don't intentionally buy it twice... It all makes sense, whether 'spice', 'hamsters', or simple practical business.
The real test of need vs. marketting, would be to have a "Genesis2 month", and have nothing but *new* and well-produced Genesis2 products presented on the main pages for a month, then look at the numbers and see how they compare. I wouldn't do such a thing if I were DAZ, but I would bet if the G2 products were of the same quality and caliber as the current offerings, the sales would be comparable, regardless the base mesh. Saturation would probably have some effect, given we will only buy so many pose sets for a certain character set... It would be interesting, all the same.
Based on this, I'm quite certain that I no longer fit DAZ's target customer profile (I say that without bitterness), and they'd be wise to know this and continue to go for the other potential 7 billion users who haven't yet figured out how amazingly cool this 3D business is!
2c,
--ms
One thing that is often overlooked in this 'use dials more' conversation is that in some cases, the dials aren't 'hitting' the exact places you need them too. And, especially for Genesis 8 males, there simply aren't that many morph packs yet. G8 Females have a few more morph pack options, but yeah they are missing a few too.
I have a LOT more morphs for Genesis 3, and even Genesis 2, than I do for 8. Sure, that'll eventually change, but in the meantime yeah I've hit the wall a few times.
Sure you can try mixing characters, but that often results in one facial area getting closer but another facial area getting farther away from what you are shooting for. And if you don't have a lot of Genesis 8 characters to begin with (due to budget, etc...) well your mxing options are limited. Not to mention when artifacts start to creep in becasue you are pushing things in too many directions at once by mixing multiple characters along with targetted morph dials. I've ended up with a few horror stories this way...
Sure there are D-Formers, but those are an artform in their own right, and they take extra time to use... and if you need to mirror them for tiny areas on the left/right side, yeah that takes extra time too.
Exporting to another program isn't something I like to do, and it doesn't always go well. And for those that are going to mention ZBrush here, well ZBrush is expensive. Many Daz customers simply don't feel that they can afford it, and that's a huge leap of faith for their budget. Plus you have to learn that other program too... Sure Hexagon is free, but that's more like moving from using a scalpel in a HD feature to a sledgehammer in a black and white movie, and it takes time to learn. And Blender, not everyone likes or even understands Blender...
Kinda like why most people didn't own full photoshop back in the day when it was a one time purchase, or even now with the subscription model. When you are pinching pennies, you make do with what you have. Perfect example of this is all you Gimp users out there. 'Cuz it's free. It doesn't have near the features that Photoshop does, but y'all make do with gimp. Or like me, I'm still using Photoshop 7. In most areas, even Photoshop 7 is better than Gimp in a number of things, and it's well over a decade old now. Dunno if Photoshop elements is still out there... I tried photoshop elements once a couple of years back, but it was missing a lot of stuff that I could just 'do' in Photoshop 7...
Oh, and even the morph kits cost extra. Just because YOU have the morphs doesn't mean others do. Try dialing in a bunch of custom Genesis 8 characters with just the starter kit and let us know how that works out for ya.
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In short, a 'premade' character that hits most or all of your checkboxes wins in a few areas. Speed (you don't need to mess with it much), already has the textures, makeup, etc. that you were looking for, and you can just get down to the business of generating content with that character without spending hours and hours trying to get another character to look like the one you just bought, and there's no need to invest time and money to get what you want, if it's already on the shelf. They become particularly attractive if you aren't playing Daz Pokemon (i.e. you only buy characters and other items occasionally).
Different people have different requirements out of their Daz experience. Just because you are able to spend hours and hours working on a single character doesn't mean that some other person wants to. And time constraints for artists can vary widely from artist to artist. Some people like to/need to meet their deadlines quickly, and for them premade characters that hit most or almost all of the checkboxes they have set out are timesavers.
FYI, I collect morph dials whenever I can (when they are free or go on sale), and use them regularly. And I'm not afraid of mixing and matching face and body morphs. But I still hit walls where I can't fix that one body area due to the morphs not touching that area in the way I need. The time I spend spin-dialing characters is significant, and that's time I could be using for posing and rendering. So when a character hits the store that I just like out of the box, yeah if the price is right it's a no brainer for me.
Sure, but a morph kit costs as much or less than a typical character. So if I buy Body and Face standard morph packs, maybe 200 from Dogz and Zev0, that's about as much as 3-4 characters.
And I then get enough range to make thousands of distinct characters... though skin texture is a separate matter!
Well I just canceled my Ole King Cole morph because 16GB RAM, DAZ Studio 4.10, and CPU render with 4 Genesis 8 characters was too much for DAZ Studio after over 30 miniutes not even the 1st render write to image canvas. At least it didn't crash like old versions of DAZ Studio would have done.
Don't even ask how long it took for me to get the violin, bow, and fiddler posed before hand. That's expected to be tedious and slow but still shouldn't take nearly as long but does because of extreme viewport lag.
Or the time spent trying to dForce the Victorian Santa Suit only to find that the Morph Targets look better for this particular clothing product. Those have all been improved in DS 4.10.x but still need to run as fast as say the Artful Physics Taylor cloth simulations runs on my computer using an app created using Unity & it's optimized cloth physics.
Well then, I not going to need diversity if I can't even render more than one character in an enviroment at a time.
As I pointed out, sometimes the morph kits still don't get you to where you need to get (cheekbones, forehead, and cranium shapes are a good example of this, not many morphs out there for these for Genesis 8 yet), and as you yourself point out, skin textures aren't covered by morph kits. And the farther away your character design strays from the 'Daz Ideal character shape', the harder it gets for morphs to get you there...
Plus there's still the time investment issue. Just because you are willing and able to take the time doesn't mean that others have that luxury due to deadlines, etc. If a premade character does what you need, well that's a 'buy and start rendering immediately, hence meeting deadlines easily', not 'spend hours trying to get what you want'...
If you are one of those artists that makes money on Patreon by regularly cranking out renders, well again, the time you spend setting up a character is time you aren't posing and rendering, and if you are doing visual novels, comics, etc. which can have hundreds or thousands of renders included, and are cranking out multiple renders daily, yeah that's time you don't have to mess around trying to build some new character from scratch. At best, you find a character that's really close to what you are looking for, maybe make a couple of dial tweaks, find the right hairstyle and call it a day. Delaying projects on Patreon often results in a loss of income, as some patrons are impatient and pull their pledges if you miss deadlines. This is just one example - there are other areas in the digital art world where deadlines are a big deal as well.
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You could use your argument for pose kits as well. Sure, you can dial in your own poses, but lots of people prefer pose packs, because then they can just pose and go, or pose, make a couple of adjustments, and go. While I personally almost never buy pose kits as standalones (I appreciate the ones in the pro bundles though), other people buy and use these extensively, and are happy with their purchases. PAs wouldn't bother to make pose kits for sale if no one was buying them.
Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean that there isn't a market out there that appreciates premade characters, that regularly invests in them. Different strokes for different folks.
Its actually not true. Women can be as visual as men. I'm not sure how that myth got started.
I don't honestly the rest this is the norm really or nature, probably the norm for the sample group in the time period this was taken, but now? I'm not so sure. These certainly have never been specific things I've ever cared about or thought about in a mate..
Regardless I'm not sure how that would apply to 3d dolls. =-)
I'm just starting to work on learning to dial spin a decent looking character myself. I just finished one a couple of days ago that I like, but she's still very noticeably related to the base I started from, after several hours work. I do enjoy it, and will keep working on it, but any time I spend dial spinning is time I'm not spending working on actual scenes. That's one reason I like premade characters; I got into this hobby speficially to finally get all the scenes that go through my head out of my head and into a format where I can share them with other people.
in the spirit of discussion (not argument), I absolutely agree that women are quite visual! (just watch a bevy of high-school girls if you have any doubt!)
That said, I don't think the female visual mechanisms are in conflict with the other mentioned criteria, but rather their primary 'sensor' in the data aquisition process, which, like males, *includes* simple good looks (symmetry, alertness, proportion, posture, strength, etc.).
I would assert that females also 'look' to see things like confidence, intelligence (sparkle?), alpha-presence, and similar species-based strengths, as well as more modern indications of capability like wealth, class, style of dress, athleticism, and posessions, etc. And that's just keeping to the visual. Both genders happily chat about 'how hot' a particular specimen might be, absolutely, but the males will auditably act upon *looks alone* where-as the females are far more likely to vette their 'relationships' with far more scrutiny (not always...). I smile thinking of the Gaston vs Belle song lyrics in the Disney 'Beauty and the Beast' productions. To him, she's the prize because she's "the most beuatiful girl in town", to her, he's a good-looking oaf. This 'myth' is indeed changing, but it doesn't come from a vacuum, nor is it impractical or illogical for a species, merely tragically simplistic for my taste.
To the original topic, this perspective ties in well with the 3D industry (certainly not just DAZ!) male-model to female-model ratio. It's much easier for guys at computers to acquire beauty via Mika 8 (Pro package, of course), than to actually have enough wit and consideration to develop date someone real that approaches that level of beauty. Regardless how hollow the resulting purchase turns out... I don't think females are driven to buy in the same way, at least not to my experience.
And as mentioned above, sure this is a broad (no pun intended) stroke that is wholy unfair to the more 'intentional' participants of our species and especially those in these forums (hardly a typical crowd in here - cleverness abounds). Gaze across the population of a typical summer fair or middle-class concert in any geography, and I don't think there's much argument that the trends I cite not only exist, but also work quite well for the species, and ... can be the source of great fun and entertainment, whether one is participating or observing!
cheers,
--ms
G8M head and body morphs + 200 morphs from Redz/Zev0 costs $62 (or easily half that, with sales).
It lets you make a LOT of wild stuff.
Such as:
Hahn ha I like that. Especially the red sss through those ears.
I agree. in the 3d game communities I develop for the majority of DLC content is user made, even with lots of commercial options. I am not opposed to add characters at all, I like seeing them and own a couple, but there just seem to be a stigma in this community that if DAZ doesn't release it, then it doesn't exist.
As for the male vs female issue, I actually realized how limited the male market was over the past two nights myself. I have a commision project I am working on and the client wants to use a custom figure based off the G8 Ronen body morph. Once I had the character ready I needed some clothing and props and since my G8 male wardrobe is very lacking since I don't use male figures much, I went looking at all the stores and it was eye opening to say the least, LOL. Thank goodness for autofit