Subsurface Scattering Effects in DAZ Studio versus Poser
Fauvist
Posts: 2,219
in The Commons
I have a lot of character skins made for Poser with Poser SSS included. The Poser SSS characters look amazingly good in Poser. In DAZ Studio they look pretty bad. Is there a way to get the same SSS effect in DAZ Studio? So that it looks similar to how it looks in Poser?
Thanks!
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The thing to note that the waxy effect in poser is **not** SSS . SSS deals with how light affects skin, particularly just in the subdermal level.. SSS is not wax.
I don't know how things look in Poser or what render engine you are using in DAZ Studio so this may not apply but I use V3Digitimes's Iray Converter for Generation 4 to convert Poser mats to Iray on generation 4 figures. Here is an example of London V4.2 by danae converted from Poser mats to Iray and rendered in DS. I did not tweak the glossy settings since the image is mainly to demonstrate the SSS it sets up. I did use the settings that come with the converter to adjust the SSS type and the strength.
Was that his question? It didn't seem he was asking for a critique of SSS in Poser vs DS but rather how to make skin look good in DS that was set up for SSS in Poser. What does it matter whether it's real SSS or not?
@Fauvist: there are a couple of items in the store that can help with that and also some forum posts (very lengthy ones) that can help with the settings if you don't want to go the paid route. Give me a few minutes and I'll scare the links up for you.
Laurie
free options:
http://www.sharecg.com/v/83278/browse/7/Material-and-Shader/Iray-Skin-Shader-for-Daz-Studio
https://second-circle.deviantart.com/art/Daz3d-Iray-Skin-Shader-Settings-533277195
https://snowsultan.deviantart.com/journal/MEC4D-Iray-skin-settings-537152092
There are quite a few skin "recipes" on DeviantArt if you look
paid options:
https://www.daz3d.com/ecvh0-iray-skin-shader-for-genesis-8-female-s
https://www.daz3d.com/v3digitimes ; (V3Digitimes has quite a few skin utilities in her store.)
https://www.daz3d.com/n-g-s-anagenessis-for-genesis-3
https://www.daz3d.com/n-g-s-anagenessis-2-revolution
Post on Iray skin settings:
https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/54239/fiddling-with-iray-skin-settings
Now, you didn't mention for what specific figure, but I'm going to guess V4 or M4 because you said set up for Poser. Your best bet would probably be V3Digitimes....she has a converter that will add an Iray shader to those figures. Also keep in mind that some of the above are old and mostly apply to previous versions of Iray in DS. With DS v 4.10, the SSS settings have changed quite a bit.
I answered corrrectly. It's not an SSS effect.. and not a critique. Maybe working with an wax shader will give him a similar effect, but that's not how SSS works in any application.
SSS is the most important part of a wax shader.
Fauvist, are you looking for the waxy look? Got any examples of what skin type you are trying to get?
My point being that you answered his post with something that helps him not at all. If what you think he wants is a waxy shader then either show him tips on how to get a good wax shader or point him to a post that does.
Laurie
@AllenArt, thank you for the list of links. I'll attach an example of what I mean. The skin is from Godin (I can't remember who the model is) - I think I got it at RuntimeDNA. It uses what is labeled SSS. The Poser render looks sensational, the DAZ Studio render looks really horrible - it is the 3Delight render engine. The textures aren't set up for iRay. I don't know if it's a matter of looking waxy or not.
There are a few possibilites: 1) it was rendered with using a PBR system such as Cycles in Blender or Poser's Superfly (think of them as the Poser world equvailent to IRAY) or 2) if you want to try to replicate it in 3dl, use something like https://www.daz3d.com/interjection-surface-injections-for-daz-studio to take advantage of the SSS of the human ubersurface. You do have to set up the surfaces manually for Daz studio in any case; for me, this would be child's play to do in IRAY but renderers like 3dl are used because they aren't PBR's (physicall based renderers).
I don't understand "it was rendered with using a PBR system" - I rendered those two pictures, the first in Poser with Firefly, and the 2nd in DAZ Studio with 3Delight.
Ah, yes, I see... the PBR thing was a guess... The second part of my comment is more on point... use the human ubershader and either set up the SSS manually or use a product like I mentioned...
I'm also not sure if we're answering the question being asked, although the discussion is very informative.
My read of @fauvist's question could be wrong, but is a question I've had for a while, so let's see if maybe this variation of the question gets us going to additional useful places:
Is there an SSS mapping scheme (color/greyscale/mixed maps?/etc.) from Poser surfaces that can be remapped to DS's SSS (or Carrara's mechanism)?
I recall discussions about Poser's bump or displacement greyscale maps starting at 128 and having both positive and negative displacement values from there, and other systems (DS?) starting at zero. Knowing this, one could make adjustments to the maps-in-question that would make them useful in other systems. (my details could be wrong, but the idea is relevant).
Are there similarly useful SSS mappings and conversion tricks from the Poserverse products that we could use to leverage their maps in DS (or Carrara...?)
(I apologize if I mis-read @fauvists's OP, but am curious all the same). Being able to extract/convert the existing value of some brilliant Poser surface maps would be quite handy - esp. Danae's stuff (London, etc.), and Syyd's from RDNA (e.g. Vanilla Sky, now here at DAZ), etc.
So, I believe I would like to know how something like the 'Vanilla Sky' Poser and DS versions compare and differ (mechanically), and how, if at all, DS SSS mappings like these can be converted/created for other Poser-based surfaces, etc.
Thanks in advance,
--ms
(edit: clarification)
To my eyes it looks like it is the lighting that is making the two images look different.
I agree.
@Fauvist
It shouldn't really be that difficult to adjust the poser mat for 3DL. First two things to adjust would probably be the glossiness and ambient channels. Then, if you want SSS that don't take all day tor render I suggest you convert the skin surfaces to UberSurface. Drop the diffuse maps into the sub surface color slot, set SSS strength to 80, diffuse strength to 75 and go from there.
I'm not sure that I understand exactly what you have done, Fauvist. Are the results that you showed a consequence of simply loading the character in DAZ Studio with the Poser shaders intact and the render engine set to 3Delight, or have you converted the shaders to a 3Delight shader while preserving the texture maps? If the former, then the first attempt at converting would best be, as nemesis 10 suggested, to try applying one of the 3Delight skin shaders builtin to DAZ Studio to see if the results at least get you closer to what you are after.
I'm sure it's a great product, but the promos really overdo the SSS, IMHO. But I figure it's a matter of taste (or adjusting parameters).
Only thing the product offers that isn't free with DS are the "Custom Painted Subsurface Scattering Maps". If I were a rich man I would get it just for that reason
As nemesis pointed out you'll have to adjust things manually. In 3DL you have a number of free shaders to choose from, AoA SSS being the most accurate having rgb absorb parameters, but it renders very slow because of being a shadermixer network that allways calculates opacity even for surfaces not using opacity maps.
It's actually the other way around, DS uses mid gray as a "zero point". Poser bump- and displacement maps can be used in DS by adjusting strengt and max-min values.
That really depends on the shader you want to use.
Converting poser mats to 3DL is pretty simple. As a rule of thumb you will need to adjust glossiness, ambience, bump and displacement parameters.
It could be a simple matter of using linear work flow in 3DL. Set gamma correction on and gamma to 2.20 if you didn't already;)
Thank you everyone. Most of the discussion is beyond my understanding, but I'll try some of the things suggested and see if I can get the effect I want.
You might want to try the free skin shaders for V4, Genesis, and Genesis 2 available at Most Digital Creations. I've used them a lot, you might need to decrease the glossy reflection value a bit, but otherwise the work very well (and as a Poser user, you may already be familiar with his products).
I believe that Fauvist wanted to convert the Poser SSS presets to something that would be a 3Delight equivalent, Dustrider. Adam's utility is meant to convert older materials for use in Iray. I'm not certain that they would work for 3Delight.
Amazing, but still not as preferable to me as the Poser Firefly render with SSS. This is N.G.S. Anagenessis 2 - Revolution and Fabiana's Zen iray lighting system.
With the human surface Omnifreaker shader. Not much of an improvement.
Big differences.
So what's your light setup? Looks like the camera headlamp to me. The poser version seems to have some kind of portrait light setup with rimlights etc. Correct me if I'm wrong;)
Sure is:) It all comes down to having proper lighting and tweaking shader parameters, no matter what render engine you use. Btw, can't see any SSS in the 3DL render, did you use the subsurface channel?
I redid the 3Delight render using a 3 light set-up very similar to the one used for the Poser render. It's still no way close to the beauty of the Poser SSS Firefly render.
I agree, looks rather flat. And still can't see any SSS effect. So , as I said above, it's a matter of adjusting shader- and light settings. I can't see any highlights either, you will have to look at that and probably add more lights that output specularity. If you used UE2, note that it only outputs diffuse light .The AoA ambient light is a different story altogether. If you want to keep that lightning you'll need to really bump up specular strength and tweak glossiness settings in the surface tab. Since I don't know your settings I can only guess, but you really have to balance the skin diffuse strength and subsurface strength and SS color to get the effect you are looking for.