What tools to use old V4/M4 stuff on G1-8 figures?
daveso
Posts: 7,939
I see mention often of all kinds of packages to allow clothes, textures, hair, etc etc from older generation characters to new ones. The informaiton is spread all over the forums, and never fully listed.
Take the GenX converters..When I read the product descriptions, I still have no clue which progucts or addons I really need. There are 8 or so products .
Can someone list what is really needed? Does the Gen2 product work with all the older and newer stuff?
What is also confusiong is that there are programs to fit older generation clothes to newer ones, but DS has that built in anyway?
But I tried to use some M4 stuff on G3 and G2 males and they did not fit correctly at all using the on board auto-fit....
Some textures work , sort of, from one generation to the next, such as G3 to G8 ... something changed though from G, G2 to G3.
Its all very confusing
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Well, the best way is to start with fitting the clothing to Genesis. Genesis had V4/M4 clones. Then, save the result as a Wearable Preset. Then load G2 and fit that wearable preset to G2 and then save THAT as another Wearable Preset. Do the same with G3 and then G8.
Some things are just not going to transfer well. Shoes especially are a problem. Just keep in mind that things like dresses, long coats, skirts, loincloths....things that have extra bones, that those bones are going to be obliterated with autofit.
You can also check the MP for the multitude of for-sale clones for the Genesis versions that didn't have them so you can eliminate a step if possible.
Laurie
"for-sale clones" can you eleborate on that? No offense meant, but that is what I read in the forums when discussing this stuff, but it comes to what is needed. Hopefully I am saying this right. So some is built into DS, but these "clones" ..what are they and what is needed? its all confusing to me. with Poser, i only used V4/M4 pretty much, so there was never a question of fitting things to something else. This is like a foreign language to new users... or maybe its just my old thick brain not working anymore.
The more I use DS the more I find that I have no clue about. I am learning a lot, vuewing videos, etc..but most seem to leave out the beginning steps or something...
Autofit works in 2 steps:
1. Alter the mesh so that it fits the new figure
2. Automatically rig the converted mesh
Step 1 uses a clone, which is simply a special kind of morph, to alter the mesh: basically it reverses the "source figure clone" morph of your target figure in the clothes to get it to fit the target figure.
By default:
Vendors have created additionnal clones for the various figures to enable more conversions, like for example the "Wear them all" products for Genesis 3.
Step 2 uses what is called "projection templates" to rig the converted mesh automatically. Different templates correspond to different types of items. The base figure includes a few templates, and vendors have created additionnal ones, like SY's Ultra templates.
thanks :) so, do the clones just automaticcaly work or do we have to call them up somehow to the figure?
Also look up Zev-0's store. Fit Control is also a must-have. He has pose converters too. For using texture on newer generations, G1 can use V4. G8 can use G3. G2 is kinda by itself.
Look up Cayman's Legacy UV's to transfer going up or down.
They have this wears them all , Its to bad it doesn't work in reverse though. you know like g8 cloning to g1,g2,v4/m4 backwards that be cool if they reverse clone g8 stuff to genesis 1& 2 with a native Autofit cone. like the do the the upgrades releases. But I guess if they made it with reverse technology then no one would buy new upgrades every time daz comes out with a new character design. for those reverse clones you need something like Genesis 3 Male for Genesis 2 Male(s)
Autofit only works for weightmapped figures so it couldn't convert anything to V4/M4.
Clones to go backwards are usually released by PAs.
i got a bunch of awesome V4 skins, and plan to use them (did already, actually) on Genesis males (i could even do it on M4 since i made my V4-UV-mapped M4, but what's the point). * i don't use female figures *.
now, absolutely no problem with Genesis 1, M4 UV are integrated. easy too with G2M, with Slosh's Michael 4 for Genesis 2 Male & the free UVsetter for G2, 1 click, done.
and then... nothing. G3M's UV are so drastically different from G2M's, no way to hide seams or scale the textures or sth, same for G8M of course.
i need a (or several) legacy UV transfer product(s), like Cayman Studios', and i wishlisted a few. BUT i'm not sure which ones will answer my needs - they are all gender specific. meaning, the next i might buy anyways could be M4 UV for G8M (and/or for G3M, but aren't the UV the same? do i really need both?), because i have good M4 skins - but it won't help with V4 skins obviously.
and V4 UV for G8M won't help either, at least not at once, because while it reads/works with V4 textures, it won't bring them to G8M.
then, there is UV swapper G8F/G8M - only vaguely, minorly interesting for me in case i got G8F textures for free, since i sure won't buy any... still not solving my problem by itself - unless (*) i first buy V4 UV for G8F and THEN re-transfer the textures to G8M with G8F/M UV swapper... pretty expensive solution, especially with my limited budget - not even mentioning the work.
ok, i could use G8F as a male, giving some more sense to buying V4 UV for G8F, since i have the awesome Transgender morph from @Agentunawares, and the DieTrying V4 morphs ported to G8F - but the DT morphs aren't many on the body, and ofc i have no morph packs for G8F, i'm pretty limited so those "males" don't exactly look gorgeous (and while i'm not mostly rendering full-front nude males, i still like to have the option to, and using male gens on females is technically annoying).
just to clarify: if i put a V4 texture on G2M and save it as a material preset, it won't change the fact that the UV is V4's right? it won't magically transform them in G2M UV i suppose, hence it would never work with a legacy G2M UV for G8M product, if my logic isn't wonky.
so, is there any other way than (*) to transfer my V4 skins to G8M/G3M? what are the best, cheapest, workflow-wise wisest steps and products to buy/do?
side question: does Anagenessis work with V4/M4?
Yes, you will need both, as 1) the base mesh is not the same, alternate UVs for G3 mesh wouldn't work on G8 mesh, and 2) the products are not only UVs, they include geografts, which are also specific to the mesh.
The thing is, V4/M4/G1/G2 use the same number of texture maps and have the same number of material zones, with material zones boundaries where you switch between the texture files. So what you have to do to use V4 figures on G2F for example is to remap the G2F mesh to use V4 textures.
However G3 and now G8 don't use the same number of texture maps and have very different material zones. If you simply remapped the G3F mesh to take V4 textures you'd end up with material zones where you'd need to use 2 different maps to cover the zone, so that doesn't work. So to apply those textures to G3 you also have to redefine the material zones, that's what the geografts are for (they add vertices and edges at the right place for that).
That wouldn't work. Using the V4 legacy for G8F doesn't transfer the textures to G8F UVs, it modifies G8F so that it can use V4 textures.
Right, it doesn't change the textures. However since in the V4 to G2M case you would only need alternate UVs, you could then use Map Transfer function in DS to create a new set of textures made for G2M UVs from the original V4 ones.
IMO the easiest solution would be to use the fact that G1 can use both V4 and M4 UVs to transfer the V4 textures to M4 UVs with Map Transfer. Then you would be able to use the various "M4 UVs" products to use the converted maps on newer male figures of the Genesis line.
The really cheapest option would be to transfer the maps to your target figure manually yourself. There's a tutorial somewhere in the forums explaining how to do that with blender for V4 to G3F but the same method could certainly be applied for G3M or G8 (it might be easier if you convert the maps to M4 with Map transferr first)
AFAIK yes it does.
thanks a lot for your detailed answer
riiiiight... i will first need a few re-reads of your post, and then let my brain translate all the tech stuff into dumb-me language, maybe simultaneously look at my DS interface/menus, until i exactly understand all this. especially the whole map transfer thing, i think i used this 1x, if even, following a step-by-step tutorial (means, i have no clue what i actually did, it just kinda worked. i guess.)
but precious info to state that my "solution" with genderswap etc won't work, because i was counting on this. now i see it's useless.
also for the G3/G8 part - i was thinking about centaur for G3M among others... hence alternate stuff.
hmm.. still have to check what kind of UV my (bought with Vittorio or V4male) V4 remapped M4 has. also my (tutorial made) M4 with V4 UV.
maybe this map transfer thing has already somehow been half-made.. urgh, i get confused so easily.
doing anything in blender won't happen for me - blender crashes/lags on my laptop, and i positively loathe its interface. deinstalled... also, at some point, trying too hard across x programs (hexagon crashes immediately, i never got the hang of wings3d except 3ds to obj) that i don't know/don't manage well will take the fun out of the creation for me. but thx for the info anyways ^^
i'm going to chew through the explanation about G2M and G1 with the map transfers, from what i could gather it's what makes sense for a start.
about Anagenessis: i had a peek at the first pages of the thread - 38 pages of pure tech talk nightmare - and while i agree i can use it on V4, no idea if this would solve my issue here - i don't see why/how it would, makes no sense. so while interesting about render quality, i don't think it would help me with anything UV related if i don't already have the fitting solution... right?
SIDE NOTE TO UV SYSTEMS CREATORS, WITH SPECIAL WINK TO @Cayman Studios : PLEASE CONSIDER CREATING GENDER-CROSSING PRODUCTS TOO. there are a huge lot of awesome creature skins for V4, and certainly also for higher generations females, that a certain number of people here would love to use on males also, i think - not only me... no idea if this would justify the work on new products, but if you decide to, it would be very appreciated! ^^
There's a tutorial for Map Transfer in this thread: https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/184696/tutorial-from-map-transfer-to-material-presets/p1
It's for transfer between G3 UVs but the principle should work for other figures.
Anagenesis wouldn't do anything about UVs issues. It could be useful to make the skin look good in Iray, but that's all.
thanks for taking the time to answer! actually, i had found another thread allowing me to understand what map transfer was about (lot less detailed than this one tough), because i was already stuck as the pop-up asked for templates. but once you get the gist, it's pretty simple. i screwed up once the first time, using the same template for all parts of the eyes (instead of 2 more for lashes and tear), but i managed to create my 1st V4 based map array with M4 UV using G1, fits like a glove on G1 and G2M with M4 UV.
yessssss! i wasn't sure where to put the dsx file, so i threw it with previous ones i saw in the support folder..
so now i understand how this is working, i guess i can try around to jump generations - lots of work but it functions ^^
The tutorial is only for moving maps from Generation "7" characters to G3F.
I tried using it as a guide to move V4 textures to G2F. As you can see below, something went wrong. G2F comes with a UV set for V5 but maybe that is not the same as G1F? The textures looked fine on the G1 model, I set the Target UV map as Genesis Female for the Map Transfer. Not sure what happened.
There are UV swap products for Genesis 3 Male & Female, and Genesis 8 Male and Female, so you only really need to get to each level once and do a lateral move. There is also a base male UV for Genesis 2 Female, but I don't remember where that came from. Oddly, I do not have the inverse; base female for Genesis 2 Male.
You can use map transfer for any UV available in the dropdown list (which is different for each figure), but the target figure must support it, and you might have to switch UV's manually.
V5 and Genesis Female UVs are indeed not the same. V5 UVs are not included with the base Genesis, you need to own V5 to have them.
Someone here on the forums just helped me with the Autofits recently. Just one note from their instruction that will save you time. You don't need to save as a wearable preset on each generation to say, get from M4V4 to G2. Just load all your figures in one scene and do an autofit progression from one to the other until you get to your "destination generation."
(independently from the whole intergeneration discussion).. so that's what happens. i had noticed some items going through autofit were modified/simplified, and not in a good way... just thought "well that's autofit for you, darn" and put the fault on the genesis skeleton forcing its way through, i realized what had disappeared were extra details, but i hadn't caught it was bones. so if it's due/related to extra bones, is there a way to either preserve or repare/reload them?
There are a few options to get better rigging on converted clothes:
"additional projection templates".. as in, products like Sickleyield's many rig/fit helpers? i wishlisted a few, but not as priorities, i never realized what they actually did. might have to reconsider then. also thanks for reminding me of SY's precious tutorials - i started watching on DA but haven't gotten to go through older stuff. seems i really missed out on advice that would have spared me time & frustration :)
Yes, SY's ultra templates for G8F will give you templates for cape, long coat, loincloth and several types of dresses, for example.
@Leana - thanks again... indirectly, by advising me to use the transfer panel/tool, you helped me further: on G3M (or other figures) when i wanted to change a texture, i would have picked every surface separately (because while a surface set like "skin" made sense for me, also i have created my own sets occasionally, i had totally overlooked those "templates", not knowing what they were - yes, i'm very distraught and chaotic, and not always curious, lol). now it's done in a blink ^^