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Just FYI.
The simplest way to ensure linear workflow in DS consists of three stages:
1) turning "Gamma Correction" on in the render settings;
2) setting the value to 2.2 in there;
3) checking the DS guesswork in the Surfaces tab by means of opening "Image editor" (not "Layered image editor" - although it will do as well, it's just slower) and confirming that colour maps have either "0" or 2.2 assigned to them ("0" is a convenience shortcut), and control maps (bump, displacement, normal, transparency, specular/reflection strength etc) have 1 assigned (i.e. they do not need to be corrected).
Any colour map that has been made from a photo or painted on a conventional screen and saved to a format like PNG or JPEG needs to be corrected with the 2.2 coefficient. This way it is linearised properly.
It's not art, it's science.
I’m hoping the bug discovery for transmap will be extended to meshlights and other lights.
Parris’ IBL solution is great but there are a load of necessary fixes.
... I actually like the blue on the Gamma Correction off side better...and the color of the skin... on the GC on side, I like the shirt and the background...
Though I have not actually tested it, I can't say this has seemed true for me. But, I am always waiting an insanely LONG time for anything to render, no matter which renderer I choose, since I am working on an old pc with integrated graphics. I ONLY have my cpu and so far Iray times seem to be comparable to what I remember, using 3DL.
One thing I am noticing since being back is that the forums, though mostly helpful and positive, always contain a few individuals who REALLY don't like change. It's kinda always been like that. I'm not surprised to see it's still an ongoing issue. You should have heard the ruckus when V4 was new (or when the original Genesis launched - OMG!!!) There were those who really REALLY loved the older generation tools they had. I remember one guy who REFUSED to give up using Pauline! (LOL)
And since the technology is ALWAYS changing, it can seem that perhaps you don't get a chance to catch your breath or learn the new thing thoroughly before the next new thing comes out...
But, that's just the way it is.
We may not have a choice but to "shit or get off the pot", as my grandmother would say.
Well, maybe it's not that desperate. You can still use the 3DL "pot" if it's what you like, but crapping all over PA's and the new technology itself, is a bit harsh, maybe. No one HAS to make you the product you WANT. And they shouldn't have to. You know what you're buying (or chosing not to buy). No one is twisting anyone's arm. They are just making what they feel inspired to make and what they think will keep them in business.
I can't blame anyone for that.
The real problem is one of love, perhaps. We come to love our tools and our characters. It feels a little like they die when things change. And we go through all of that grief, step by step... starting with denial.
I'm guilty of it.
I was FURIOUS when Genesis 2 launched as two seperate male/female figures. But, all my fury did absolutely nothing to slow down progress. Today, I accept it... and brace myself for whatever may come next.
There tutorials at youtube on speeding render times up .
Unless you build your own computers you need to buy what they call a game ready computer for any CGI app.
I saw some small ones at walmart for 5 or 6.Depending on how your ray trace rendering a quad core or bigger 3D card would help.You could have 2 computers one just for renders.
I would assume DAZ went to ray trace rendering cause app's like Max n Maya use render engines like Vray n DAZ meshes would work better in Vray.
on a side note I'm a fan of real time render engines.but I don't know how big of a effort it would take to use one with DAZ meshes.
.
...when I tested the same scene between the two render engines and 3DL finished in 1/8th the time as Iray (I don't have a "beefy" GPU card and cannot affrord one so I am stuck with GPU rendering), I don't think that is "crapping" on Iray. It is a great engine if you have the hardware resources that support it, I don't. I need to work with what is best for my workflow. Converting shaders from Iray to 3DL is much more complex compared to the other way around.
The only way I could accept the change is if I could afford to build a new system which on a fixed income I am unable to do unless I get some sort of windfall.
Well, if you have "GPU" that means you have a seperate video card from your motherboard, right? (I'm a little pc ignorant). If you have an actual video card installed then you have MORE rendering power than I do, since I only have integrated graphics with my motherboard (CPU) and I have not noticed any difference in render times. For me, it's always going to take a long time...lol
And perhaps I should have made my post two seperate posts, because the second portion of my post was aimed at the many people who have said they thought PA's should cater to their personal preferences and make BOTH types of shaders available in their products.
I just think that may be asking ALOT of PA's who already have to deal with all the DAZ Sales that end up forcing many of them to sell their products at a discount.
We can tend to get a bit spoiled here.
In the "hobbyist" market, prices are VERY friendly to the customer. It's the Wal*Mart of 3D, where everyone can pick up fully rigged, posable 3D figures and props complete WITH high quality textures, poses, settings, etc... for around $20 or less (mostly).
Go check out some of the prices on Turbo Squid, for low poly, no texture models... Might make people a little more appreciative that the PA's continue to create for us at all...
Just sayin'.
And the fact that this happens over and over as technology gets better and better. You remember KK...
Remember how mad people were that Daz went to their own file format or how they freaked out over the release of Daz Studio 4 and Genesis because the new tech didn't work in Poser?
The first time it hits you, and you realise, "Shit. Stuff is changing." it can make your heart beat a little harder and your face get a little hot. One's mind tends to think of all the fun you had buying stuff and how the new stuff isn't going to be that stuff anymore...
I get it.
Been there.
Like I mentioned earlier, I was livid that Daz was changing their mind about a universal figure that could be anything when they launched Genesis 2 as two seperate figures. I had invested all this money and time, ENERGY AND LOVE into promoting and supporting Genesis...
But, that time passed. And each time will.
I'm just coming back. I don't have a lot of money either. Currently, I've JUST moved back to my home state and am looking for work. I don't even have an income right now...
Who knows? Maybe by the time I get aquainted with all this stuff on my limited (non existent budget) Daz Studio could COMPLETELY change again with not only a new line of figures, but new software... EVERYTHING, just like it did when we got Daz Studio 4.0.
And this time... I would be expecting it. See what I'm saying?
...my GPU, with 1 GB of VRAM, which 5 years ago was "cutting edge", is terribly insufficient for GPU rendering, therefore I am stuck with hours long render times in Iray. To get a GPU that can handle the types of scenes I create (that take far less time to render in 3DL) means for Iray, a fairly heavy investment in a SOTA GPU card (as well as the sytem to support it) which is pretty impossible on my fixed income (even an 8 GB 1070 is pretty much out of the question as it is about 40% of my monthly income, let alone a 1080 Ti). With the release of IBL Master, I now have a tool which gives me decent GI without the long render times associated with UE. Unfortunately, so much content today is coming out with only Iray shaders which, as mentioned several times in this thread by myself and others, are much tougher to convert properly to 3DL compared to the other way around. This is pretty much part of the point of this thread. If someone at Daz came out with a reliable and accurate Iray => 3DL conversion plugin, I would have no issue paying for it. I'd rather spend my time creating images that tell a story than deal with the nuts & bolts of converting or scripting shaders just as I when I pruchased oil paints rather than formulating them myself.
Rather than edit, I'm going to add more thoughts in a new post...
(Will I ever learn to keep my big mouth shut? Damn, I keep scolding myself to... but myself is a pain in the arse, I guess)
OK... I should just make what I'm about to say a whole new thread and ask the mods to sticky it.
Here we go:
If you come into this hobby, be prepared for it to change very rapidly. EXPECT that tomorrow (literally, maybe tomorrow) EVERYTHING you learned, everything you spent, and everything you love to fade into oblivion. Because it will. Probably sooner than later. You won't have time to prepare for the changes. They will and do come quickly.
This is because the technology is (also literally) changing BY THE MINUTE.
Right NOW something cool is being figured out that no one knows yet...
And Right NOW... something cooler that will make that thing we don't even know about obsolete, is being figured out.
And NOW, something else has been figured out that will make both of those things history before they are even announced.
That's just a reality about computer graphics and computing today.
So, enjoy the ride.
But, understand that when the ride ends, you'll have to get to the back of the line like everyone else.
..If my hands were not as crippled as they are, I would have continued in the traditional art media. I had to make an adjustment to the digitial media if I wanted to keep telling stories with pictures or just give up totally. I already lost music (I used to play classical piano, harpsichord, and organ) which was enough of a blow to my creative outlets.
I'm not knocking Iray for what it does. I just don't have nor can afford the hardware that will will support it at it's optimal performance and feel that Daz forsaking 3DL makes it all that much more difficult to keep working in this medium.
Well, sharp pencils are nice, but even a dull one will make a mark... (Something I heard Ze Frank say once).
But, that is kind of my point. Technology doesn't care. It doesn't care if we can afford it, if we can keep up, or if we love it.
It's not like a precious heirloom passed down to us from our grandmothers. It's more like that movie you got to enjoy for a couple of hours... or that McDonald's you grabbed on the way to work. It's experienced and then it's over.
The wonderful thing is you still have the tools you love/want. They haven't disappeared off your computer. Sure, the new stuff is new and isn't that stuff... but that's the whole point of "new", isn't it?
Sorry but that's a load of b***sh**! I get your point and if you want to be part of the cutting edge tech/new stuff must have illusion I'm perfectly fine with that, go ahead. I use Genesis1 and 3DL and I'm doing just fine, nobody will be able to convince me that I must have all the new stuff, I do this for fun, not trying to make a living of it. I won't forget how to use my stuff, I use it everyday! If someone like Parris makes a great product that makes it even more fun I buy it. I certainly will not buy the same skimp/fantasywear for the 4th or 5th time just to feel I'm not left behind. Frankly my dear, couldn't care less
I'm not suggesting you have to have the new stuff. (Even the dull ones will make a mark, remember?)
I'm saying you can't expect PA's or technology to stop because you can't or don't want to move forward.
Honestly, I think that our culture is being driven by a lot of incredibly shallow hype about the tech world. People really believe that technology now is so super advanced compared to what it was in the dark ages of the 70's and 80's. But in fact much of it is marketing, convincing people that they really do need this new technology because it's so important. You really do need to spend insane amounts of money on the latest iPhone because it can recognize your face. Really?
If you take a look at the technology that was being developed back in the 80's, it's the basis for everything going on today. All of the new, awesome technology is just incremental improvements on that stuff from the 80's. It's just smaller, and faster. But it's the same technology. And no, we really don't need 90% of this stuff. Smartphones, tablets, Titan V GPU's, video games, social media, and so on. It's all just entertainment. If you look at 90% of the day-to-day lives of people in the 70's and 80's compared to people today, it looks absolutely identical. Most of the basic stuff hasn't changed. Houses the same, cars the same, stores the same, malls the same, airlines the same, computers the same, clothing the same, and so on. All we're talking about is a tiny incremental improvment in access to information (which most people really don't care about), and a HUGE shift in focus and $$ spent on entertainment.
Technology is not changing by the minute. My desktop, and all its components, looks identical to my desktop from almost 30 years ago. It's just faster. Most of the "change" is a brilliant way for our industries to convince us we need to buy stuff because it's new technology, and that means it's awesome, by definition. Yeah, we can produce more realistic renders, but in practice most of the renders I've seen over the years look pretty much the same. Technology doesn't make me, or any one of us, better artists, which is IMO far more important than a 20% increase in render speed.
I know my style can sometimes seem...
abrasive
to some...
Perhaps most. But, believe me when I tell you I say it with love.
Better that everyone be able to love and enjoy this stuff KNOWING it will NOT stay exactly like this for long.
Prepare your minds and hearts for the truth: Whatever is current and new RIGHT NOW is already on it's way to being outdated and the next new thing will only be fleeting too.
I think you missed Jasmine's point, of course you can continue to use and enjoy old stuff, but technologie moves on whether we move with it or not and expecting it to slow down for you isn't going to happen. Many of us have older less powerful tech which we can't afford to upgrade, personally I just find workarounds, but still want DS to advance, I learn to work with the advances rather than fight them and hope they will just go away. I feel that one of Poser's problems is vendors won't move on and much of the content that is being produced for Poser is no more advanced than 10 years ago and this is often because apparently their customers won't move up to the new tech or they won't or can't learn it themselves. I've even spoken to vendors creating for DS that have refused to use some of the newer features because they want to make sure that any customers using older versions of DS can still use their stuff, this of course means their stuff looks old and dated (at least to me). If their are new features I want them to be used not ignored because a section may not be able or willing to use them.
I use Iray because I find it so much quicker to use than 3dl, and I used 3dl for years and felt that I was resonably proficient in it by the time iray arrived especially after years of converting Poser mats for use in DS, my renders are still faster in iray than 3dl even the larger scenes and they are faster usually to set up, even when using older stuff that needs a lot of converting.
There must be something wrong with me
cos I don't hate nobody
we all want the same you see
to live and love
and be happy
For those who are convinced that technology is changing by the minute, below is an image of an Intel motherboard from 2001. That's 16 years ago. It's for a Pentium 4 processor. For anyone familiar with desktop motherboards, you'll note that it looks almost identical to the latest motherboards on the market today. Almost identical technology. PCI slots, USB connectors, DRAM, etc.
The Pentium 4 CPU had a speed between 1.5 - 2.5 GHz. My Ryzen 7-1700 has a base speed of 3GHz.
Technology is not changing anywhere near as fast as we are led to believe.
I have to laugh, imagining the AMD ad campaign for the Ryzen 7-1700...if it had said "Ryzen 7 ...well, it's better than a Pentium 4... it has a 20% higher clock speed !!!!"
Game ready systems are not rendering systems; the fact it has some components better suited to rendering should not be taken as ideal for rendering, and certainly not optimised.
Consider that a game ready system would perform much better with IRAY than 3Delight; 3Delight likes CPU cores, IRAY GPU.
... However, a good game-ready system based off AMD graphics, would be useless for rendering IRAY on the graphics card - it would render on the CPU.
If you're building a computer for rendering, forget about what's good for games - consider what you require it to do, using what graphics software and what renderers. Then buy the best you can afford.
As a PA I have to wonder how this is supposed to make me add 3DL support to my stuff. Basically you just said you still use Genesis 1. There are people who openly state they avoid Genesis 8 for financial reasons. And people who want 3DL support because they can't afford to buy a GPU on their very small income etc.
I get it, it's unfortunate that people are in dire financial situations. I truely wish it wasn't so, I was there before myself. But we all live in capitalism and I have to eat too. How am I supposed to make a business model around people who have no money to spend in the first place? Any sensible business person has got to get their alarm clocks go off when people mention a combination of no money, not moving to Iray, not moving to G8. I cannot possibly work with these sets of conditions unless I go full altruism which sadly won't pay the bills.
Meanwhile people with slow computers can still render in Iray. It's slow but it's possible. They could learn to convert materials to 3DL too. It may be hard but it's possible. It seems like a compromise worth making under such circumstances. Which is a point I believe Jasmin was making.
I've made my choices partly because of economical reasons. Music has paid my bills for 30+ years. It has been tough, living in a very small country and all. I have invested heavily in tech to keep up in that area so I fully understand that people living off their art have to have the newest stuff. Luckily for you and other vendors I'm not a typical DS user/customer, so you shouldn't have to worry too much.
I'm getting rather tired of having to repeat myself but here we go again. I like Genesis 1. Very versatile. Enough for my needs. I like 3DL. I can render with Iray so nobody needs to pity me. I'm not making demands or threatening anybody, just stating (being a poor fellah) I will not likely buy Iray only products.
Everybody- PAs and customers try to get along the best they can. I'm sorry I'm not in a financial situation to buy all that new stuff coming out, I have to choose carefully before putting something in my cart.
Parris IBL master made me very happy. And I feel there is more to come for 3DL users.
Great conversation.
I just love your render there Sven. WOW!
Having spent the last 35 years in the tech/IT industry, and teaching computer tech at a local college for almost 15 years, I can agree with what you said. If I don't keep up with the continual changes, I will render myself irrelevant. When I compare what we were doing for "enterprise" systems and geographic information systems in the 1980's vs today ..... well to be honest, there isn't much of a comparison (this is both the systems I have been involved with, and industry wide). My students need to learn the latest tech, as well as be exposed to emerging technologies, because they need this knowledge to get a job. I spend more time learning new crap ..... errr ... umm..... new interfaces, procedures, etc. every year than any of my colleges in any of the "traditional" schools (how much does Math, English, Physics, Chemistry, etc. change every year compared to the computer industry). Today, your Customer Information Systems (CIS) need to integrate with customer service, personnel management, vehicle management, and GIS (mapping), and a host of other applications to optimize your investment in technology, and reduce redundant systems/work. True, typically you don't want to be on the cutting edge (or the bleeding edge), because there are huge risks there, but you can't afford to stick your head in the sand and refuse to acknowledge that tech is changing and moving forward either.
Of course this being a hobby for most people put's a little different spin on the need to move forward. But, since it is a hobby that uses computer technology, DAZ needs to keep moving forward, or they, like the average IT professional, will render themselves irrelevant, So the average DAZ user has the option to move forward with DAZ (which means continuing to learn new things and improve their hardware to take advantage of the new tech), or pick a point where they are comfortable and stay there. I'm not saying 3Delight is old tech, it's still very relevant. But for many users (most????), Iray has replaced 3Delight and the go to render engine. Why??? Because it is easier to get the results they want out of Iray than it is with 3Delight. From what has been said, this is also true for many PA's. The trend of not supporting 3Delight will probably continue unless there is an enterprising PA that creates some 3Delight products that makes it easier/faster for PA's to use and get great results (maybe the new IBL master will help fill this void???). If this doesn't happen, then at some point those who want to continue to use 3Delight will need to acquire the necessary skills to make their own shaders (or maybe someone will create a better Iray to 3Delight shader conversion). This is true of anyone who want to stay with any "legacy" system (yes, 3Delight isn't a legacy render engine, but it seems to sort of be that whith DS now). While I fully understand why many of the participants in this thread prefer 3Delight, the reality is that right now it would seem that most people prefer Iray, and it also seems that Iray has drawn many Poser users back to DAZ, which means more sales for them, and more support for Iray.
Personally, I hope that IBL Master helps boost 3Delight support and use, as it is a great render engine. I'm still a bit on the fence over purchasing it though, because I'm not seeing a lot of 3Delight work to match what I like in Iray renders yet. Few renders show much SSS on the skin shaders. I know from personal experience that 3Delight is capable of renders that are as good as I can get from Iray (see below, sorry, not the best pose, etc, but it's one of the best 3Delight render I have), but I also know that it takes a lot more work on my part to get there with 3Delight, and the render times are extremely long. So, for now I prefer Iray because it renders faster (with GPU, about the same with CPU), and it much easier for me when it come to lighting and shaders.
3Delight render from 2012 (linkt to gallery image)
lol
If you really believe that, then I have an old P4 system that I'll trade you for your Ryzen system. I'll even include a vintage Quadro card since the system you'ld be sending me has two "consumer" cards
..I was there in the 80s and it was rough going as everything, geometry, textures, and lights al had to be coded from scratch. It felt so removed from using a brush, pen, pencil, or sculpting clay which is why I bailed and stayed with traditional art media until I no longer could hold the tools steady or apply the proper pressure required for different stroke and shading effects. As I mentioned before the software I dreamed about over thirty years ago has finally come to pass.
I apologise for coming off somewhat defensive when it is inferred that 3DL it is "so yesterday" while Iray is the "future" for 3D art as well as those of us who still choose to use the "elder" engine will be "left behind". Yes 3DL in Daz has it limits, though several people here are pushing beyond them and creating tools (like IBL Master and scripts) that open new possibilities for Daz's once "signature" render engine. Iray in Daz has some serious limits as well compared to the standalone version that other software like 3DS Max and Maya have access to. Without knowing how to script MDL shaders it's full potential. which that other software can tap, cannot be unlocked.
It would be nice to have a newer system that is more capable of supporting Iray to where a render job doesn't take a good part of the day, but for some of us, that just isn't a reality short of coming into a moderate windfall.
...ideally the best systems for rendering would make use of Xeons, server components, and Quadro GPU cards. The Quadro line uses different driver sets, is more robust than the consumer line (able to operate for long periods of time at peak output for years), has lower power requirements, and most importantly, offers more VRAM. Unfortunately like pro grade software, these systems come at a hefty price, in some cases, one you could pretty much buy a nice new car for. Not many of us here can afford that. So we make do with what we can get out of consumer grade hardware the top of the line being the 1080 TI (and whatever its successor will be) as the Titan just got blown out of reach and is no longer intended for rendering. For CPUs it is Ryzen and Threadripper (Intel goofed up with their Skylake-X CPU by going to a cheaper method to attach the heat spreader which isn't as efficient at heat dissipation).
...there are those of us who would rather concentrate on creating well crafted images than spend most of our time with all the guesswork involved in manual shader conversions. Daz provided a simple conversion for 3DL to Iray that works rather well. All some of us are asking is for a similar type of plugin, script or whatever (that we'd even purchase) that does the same as efficiently and accurately in the other direction. Yeah, we will still modify textures to get what we want, but when having to do so from the ground up all the time has a serious impact on workflow, it becomes both frustrating and discouraging after a while.
...@ DustRider, I agree with many points, however. some of us are just not cut out for coding (or as in my case, totally burned out on it). This is why I feel if Daz offered a good Iray to 3DL conversion tool, even at a price, PAs would be "off the hook" and it would make life a lot less frustrating for those of us who don't have powerful systems and would rather focus on the creative side of this pursuit.
The advantage of IBL master in 3DL is true IBL lighting at a lower cost in render time vs UE. That is an advantage, as well as a big one over CPU render times in Iray.
Well, I don't know what you're experiencing on your system, but for me, IRAY looks to me like it will save me tons of time... in post work. I tried SO hard to achieve "realism" and never could get close with 3DL. I know many were able to do some really convincing stuff. An image of (Michael?? - Sorry don't remember his last name) with two robots playing chess comes to mind. It was amazing. And Dreamlight had some beautiful environments that I could not distinguish from reality...
but I never came close. I always had several passes, several renders, lots of compositioning, and layering and TONS of postwork to make my images...
And I have yet to really do anything with IRAY, as I am still learning it, but I can already see, just from my spot renders with nothing but the headlamp on, that this is going to cut my work time down.... A LOT.
Maybe I'm just getting lucky here. So far, even though my system is almost 10 years old and my motherboard has only integrated graphics (ATI Radeon 4200 - Google it for some old AF specs). I am still able to do what Daz Studio can do. I was even recently able to get dForce to work. (YAY!) So, even though I will be slow, I'm really excited to play with the new stuff and believe it will actually help me make the images I always WANTED to make... faster and better.
I don't know. I think it's all very exciting.