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Questions to dForce

AndySAndyS Posts: 1,434
in Daz Studio Discussion

Hi,

I just watched the base tutorial video for dForce.
OK: This is a really nice new possibility.

But already in the animation you see, that at certain states, it doesn't work well. Some poke-thrues and some strange lifting of parts of the cloth.

Somewhere at the beginning it is stated and shown, that dForce only works for dForce compatible assets. So only for those products with the additional dForce compatibility stated in the product prerequisits.
Does this mean, that we now have to throw away all our old content and rebuy new stuff?

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Comments

  • scorpioscorpio Posts: 8,312
    AndyS said:

    Hi,

    I just watched the base tutorial video for dForce.
    OK: This is a really nice new possibility.

    But already in the animation you see, that at certain states, it doesn't work well. Some poke-thrues and some strange lifting of parts of the cloth.

    Somewhere at the beginning it is stated and shown, that dForce only works for dForce compatible assets. So only for those products with the additional dForce compatibility stated in the product prerequisits.
    Does this mean, that we now have to throw away all our old content and rebuy new stuff?

    There are a few threads around detailling dforce and people experiments in it.

    Its still in beta so yes it still has areas to improve.

    And no - you can turn anything dynamic,  how it drapes is another question and depends on several factors.

    Threads about it

    https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/203201/daz-3d-introduces-dforce-physics-engine#latest

    https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/203076/daz-studio-pro-beta-version-4-10-0-101-updated#latest

    https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/203081/dforce-start-here#latest

    https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/203671/let-s-see-your-dforce-renders-experiments-interesting-results#latest

  • AndySAndyS Posts: 1,434

    Already the first link says in general NO!
    The surface first needs a special treatment to become complient.

  • BeeMKayBeeMKay Posts: 6,987

    Sorry for the German language.

    Hallo Andy,

    Alles, was Du zum Umwandeln eines Kleidungsstücks nach dForce brauchst, bringt DAZ Studio mit. Du misst den Modifier anwenden, damit dForce versteht, wie sich die Oberfläche zu verhalten hat. Aber den Modifier kannst Du überall anwenden, womit alles dForce-compliant wird, sobal du ihn angewendet hast. Natürlich ist der ERfolg davon abhängig, wie "gut" die Sachen gemacht wurden, und hier kommt das Shop-"Siegel" dForce-Comliant ins Spiel.

    Kleidungsstücke etc., die später im Shop mit dem Label "dForce compliant" versehen sind, werden vom PA so hergestellt, dass sie nicht explodieren, sich die Knöpfe nicht ablösen, und sie nicht über die Hüften rutschen. Die Maps, die Du bei "Altkleidung" selbst bepinseln darfst, werden bereits mitgeliefert, ebenso ist der Modifier bereits "vorangebracht" und hat die gewünschten Einstellungen, um das korrekte Material zu simulieren.

    Als Shop-Label hat es also Qualitätsmerkmal, während die allgemeine "dForce compliance" nur bedeutet, dass du den Modifier anwenden musst.

    Ich verstehe leider nicht, wo genau dein Verständnis-Problem beim Begriff liegt, aber es ist im Moment noch alles im Test-Stadium, und wird sicherlich noch ein paar Beta-Versionen benötigen, bevor die Kinderkrankheiten überwunden sind.

  • LeanaLeana Posts: 11,009
    AndyS said:

    Already the first link says in general NO!
    The surface first needs a special treatment to become complient.

    Yes but you can do the setup yourself.

  • JamesJABJamesJAB Posts: 1,760
    AndyS said:

    Already the first link says in general NO!
    The surface first needs a special treatment to become complient.

    By compliant it means there are certian construction reqiurements that need to be met.
    This does not exclude any items from having dynamic properties added by the end user.  but depending on how that item is created it could work great, or it could fall apart as soon as you hit simulate.

  • AndySAndyS Posts: 1,434

    HI,

    the overall question is, which steps have to be done to convert older conventional props (i.e. clothing, hair, ...)?
    Cause the surface has to be changed - is there a new shader available? As it was for iray conversion?

    Let me compare the problem with those special dynamic clothing assets in the past.
    There was only a small number of those items. All other wardrobe (99% of all products) was not able to be "drapped".

    Now the same for dForcing ??

  • LeanaLeana Posts: 11,009
    AndyS said:

    HI,

    the overall question is, which steps have to be done to convert older conventional props (i.e. clothing, hair, ...)?
    Cause the surface has to be changed - is there a new shader available? As it was for iray conversion?

    Let me compare the problem with those special dynamic clothing assets in the past.
    There was only a small number of those items. All other wardrobe (99% of all products) was not able to be "drapped".

    Now the same for dForcing ??

    The tools needed to convert existing clothes are included in DS.

  • JamesJABJamesJAB Posts: 1,760
    AndyS said:

    HI,

    the overall question is, which steps have to be done to convert older conventional props (i.e. clothing, hair, ...)?
    Cause the surface has to be changed - is there a new shader available? As it was for iray conversion?

    Let me compare the problem with those special dynamic clothing assets in the past.
    There was only a small number of those items. All other wardrobe (99% of all products) was not able to be "drapped".

    Now the same for dForcing ??

    Here are the required steps.

    1. Load the item that you would loke to make dynamic into Daz Studio (This can be any item, even props or primatives)
    2. Select your item in the scene
    3. open the Simulation Settings pane (tab)
    4. open the options drop down for that pane
    5. go to "dForce" -> "Add dForce Modifier: Dynamic Surface"

    You now have a dynamic item ready to drape.
    When used on a rigged item it will still function exactly as it did before, and you can choose to start the simulation from the default pose or current pose. 

  • BeeMKayBeeMKay Posts: 6,987

    The steps are as followed (given that you properly installed everything):

    1. Load Character with clothing
    2. Select closing in scene tab
    3. Select surface of the clothing in surface tab
    4. Go to simulation tab (that's a new tab under Window->Panes in DS)
    5. Click on the list symbol in the upper right corner of simulation tab.
    6. From the list, select "Add dForce Modifier --> Dynamic surface"
    7. The cloth is now dForce compliant:
      1. You find a new setting for "Simulation" in the Parameter tab
      2. You find new settings for the surface to control how the simulation affects the cloth in the surface tab
    8. Next steps would be:
      1. go to time line, Select chacracter set the desired pose at frame 20 or so,
      2. go to Simulation tab and change simulation mode from "current frame" to "Animation"
      3. Start simulation

    That is the very basic drill down. Chances are that your clothing will explode or fall apart (depending on how well it is made). There are additional tool (Select clothing in scene tab-->"Edit-->Create dForce Weight Map"--> Select new node Weight map brush --> Add dForce Weight maps, then use the brush tool, and yoou can change the behaviour of the surface in the surface tab as well.

    Perhaps, you simply try it.

  • AndySAndyS Posts: 1,434

    OK, thank's folks.

    Perhaps on the weekend I'm going to install the (for sure my simple onboard graphic is not able) CPU driver and give it a try.

  • MarkIsSleepyMarkIsSleepy Posts: 1,496
    BeeMKay said:

    ...

    That is the very basic drill down. Chances are that your clothing will explode or fall apart (depending on how well it is made)...

    Slight correction. It's not a matter of well it is made, but of how well it is made for this purpose.

    Because something explodes when you try to simulate it doesn't mean it is badly made, it just was not made with the way this new function works in mind. For example (assuming I am understanding how all this works correctly) it's normal to make buttons on clothing as separate meshes that are not physically connected to the main clothing piece - they are just sort of floating in the right spot. Those won't simulate well - I imagine they would just sort of fall through the floor. 

    We don't want people suddenly thinking all their existing items are "badly made." wink It's just that creating something that works well for simulation requires planning it out differently during modeling.

    I could be totally wrong - I just started reading about this and haven't been able to upgrade to the latest DS version for a while due to internet connection issues so I haven't yet played with it myself - but I believe this is correct.

  • Oso3DOso3D Posts: 14,886

    MDO: I'm not an expert, but what you say fits what I understand. 

  • BeeMKayBeeMKay Posts: 6,987

    True, my phrasing was not precise, as it was an implid meaning in my mind when I wrote it. smiley

    Thanks for pointing it out, MDO, and I hope that no one took the wrong meaning.

     

  • AndySAndyS Posts: 1,434
    edited October 2017

    Hi Bee,

    after understanding you description, it works.
    (Point 6 has to be: "From the list, select "dForce --> Add dForce Modifier --> Dynamic surface") wink

    Next question: If the clothing intersects with other clothing assets, how to tell dForce to let it collide against all other asstes?
    I.e. a jacket ot shirt may poke throug the trousers. How to avoid this?

    --> https://sta.sh/01utxbb0lgo0

    Post edited by AndyS on
  • BeeMKayBeeMKay Posts: 6,987

    Remove all poke through/intersections before you start the simulation. dForce automatically recognizes all other surfaces as "static collision", but in your case, the poke, through was there before the simulation started, and the polygons are trapped inside the "static" mesh.

    This was something pointed out in the main dForce render thread, and people have gone a far as downscaling characters/clothes at the beginning of the collision at frame 0, so there is no intersection, and the scale it up again in further frames while the simulations runs.

  • AndySAndyS Posts: 1,434
    edited October 2017

    Hm,

    but isn't it a problem, if in before, I scale the shirt up? Formerly I created a new obj out of the character incl. the trousers and let the shirt collide against the result. But this can't be animated, of cause. wink
    How does scaling influence the "drapping"?

    Other problem:
    After following your description with the result in the linked gif, now the initial example of the dForce starter essentials don't run up to the real end anymore. The simulation now (even after a complete new start of DAZ) reaches 100% while the sheet in "dForce Simple Sheet Drop" even didn't have touched the bed.

    Post edited by AndyS on
  • BeeMKayBeeMKay Posts: 6,987

    No, you'd scale down the body and pants, not the shirt.

    Simulation: Did the sheet example work before you ran the other simulation?

  • AndySAndyS Posts: 1,434
    edited October 2017

    Oh, normally I leave the character and all at 100% and only expand the not suitable part of the additional clothing/hair. Otherwise the character doesn't fit to all other parts of the scene anymore.

    To the simulation:
    Yes, the first time it ran to the real end (the sheet settling down on the surrounding floor completely).

    Post edited by AndyS on
  • Ghosty12Ghosty12 Posts: 1,978

    I found for me at least dForce is very temperamental it either works, or it gives me the bird and crashes and thus having to restart Studio.. When it does work it is great, when it does not it is annoying, and found that some clothing does not behave well, such as the skirt part from the Ladybug outfit, the bow part goes boom during simulation..  I found the dress from Sensibility works great but the skirt jacket from OOT's Centigrade does not work well as some parts of it will go boom during simulation..

    The other thing is if you dynamic one outfit and it works, then delete it and add another it can throw a wobbly as well, I love this new type of dynamic system as not limited to certain clothing types like in Poser where the item had to be made specifically for dynamics, but dForce for me at least has a lot to get ironed out..

  • AndySAndyS Posts: 1,434

    And the simulation behaves pretty strange.

    I wanted the long hair of a sitting and looking down character to fall down naturally. In general at the end of the simulation it looks good.

    But !

    In this scene I let the character sit down and applied the long hair prop. Then I applied the "dynamic surface" property to the hair (only).
    At the start of the simulation dForce lets the character stand up into the basic !Zero pose. (??) Now during the steps of the simulation the character slowly sits down as the hair continues to move into the correct wanted hanging down form.
    But why the hell does dForce move the character in that standing zero pose?
    Although I only applied the dynamic property to the hair, the character got that property. (??)
    As I explicitly removed the property from the character, dForce stated that there was no dynamic asset to be simulated anymore, although I previosly applied that property to the hair prop.
    I really don't understand this. This is not user friendly. This is not logic.

  • Daywalker DesignsDaywalker Designs Posts: 3,586
    AndyS said:

    And the simulation behaves pretty strange.

    I wanted the long hair of a sitting and looking down character to fall down naturally. In general at the end of the simulation it looks good.

    But !

    In this scene I let the character sit down and applied the long hair prop. Then I applied the "dynamic surface" property to the hair (only).
    At the start of the simulation dForce lets the character stand up into the basic !Zero pose. (??) Now during the steps of the simulation the character slowly sits down as the hair continues to move into the correct wanted hanging down form.
    But why the hell does dForce move the character in that standing zero pose?
    Although I only applied the dynamic property to the hair, the character got that property. (??)
    As I explicitly removed the property from the character, dForce stated that there was no dynamic asset to be simulated anymore, although I previosly applied that property to the hair prop.
    I really don't understand this. This is not user friendly. This is not logic.

    I blieve most cloth and hair simulation software animates everything in the scene, whether it is supposed to be dynamic or not, so this appears to be normal.

  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 96,696
    AndyS said:

    And the simulation behaves pretty strange.

    I wanted the long hair of a sitting and looking down character to fall down naturally. In general at the end of the simulation it looks good.

    But !

    In this scene I let the character sit down and applied the long hair prop. Then I applied the "dynamic surface" property to the hair (only).
    At the start of the simulation dForce lets the character stand up into the basic !Zero pose. (??) Now during the steps of the simulation the character slowly sits down as the hair continues to move into the correct wanted hanging down form.
    But why the hell does dForce move the character in that standing zero pose?
    Although I only applied the dynamic property to the hair, the character got that property. (??)
    As I explicitly removed the property from the character, dForce stated that there was no dynamic asset to be simulated anymore, although I previosly applied that property to the hair prop.
    I really don't understand this. This is not user friendly. This is not logic.

    By default the Simulation is set to start from the memorised pose, which in your case would be the zero pose. That does help to avoid issues where a pose causes intersections in a mesh that aren't present in the zero pose. You can chnage the behaviour if you wish in the Simulation Settings pane.

  • AndySAndyS Posts: 1,434
    edited October 2017
    Richard Haseltine said:
    AndyS said:

    And the simulation behaves pretty strange.

    I wanted the long hair of a sitting and looking down character to fall down naturally. In general at the end of the simulation it looks good.

    But !

    In this scene I let the character sit down and applied the long hair prop. Then I applied the "dynamic surface" property to the hair (only).
    At the start of the simulation dForce lets the character stand up into the basic !Zero pose. (??) Now during the steps of the simulation the character slowly sits down as the hair continues to move into the correct wanted hanging down form.
    But why the hell does dForce move the character in that standing zero pose?
    Although I only applied the dynamic property to the hair, the character got that property. (??)
    As I explicitly removed the property from the character, dForce stated that there was no dynamic asset to be simulated anymore, although I previosly applied that property to the hair prop.
    I really don't understand this. This is not user friendly. This is not logic.

    By default the Simulation is set to start from the memorised pose, which in your case would be the zero pose. That does help to avoid issues where a pose causes intersections in a mesh that aren't present in the zero pose.

    Ah, OK.
    Of cause I already noticed that intersections and poke-throughs fix the dynamic mesh / prevent the blocked area from morphing.

    Richard Haseltine said:

    You can chnage the behaviour if you wish in the Simulation Settings pane.

    Hm, so it seems not to be selfexplaining. I already had several looks through the whole dialog. Nothing relevant found.

    Post edited by AndyS on
  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 96,696

    "Start Bones from Memorised Pose" is the one you want, it's on by default.

  • AndySAndyS Posts: 1,434

    But what is the meaning of "Memorized Pose"?
    I open the scene with a sitting character. But dForce simulation first let it stand up. (??)

  • Daywalker DesignsDaywalker Designs Posts: 3,586
    AndyS said:

    But what is the meaning of "Memorized Pose"?
    I open the scene with a sitting character. But dForce simulation first let it stand up. (??)

    By default, the A or T pose a figure loads into the scene in is the memorized pose; you can change this in the menu system, though I do not remember the exact entry you want.

  • AndySAndyS Posts: 1,434
    edited October 2017

    If I load a scene with a character already being in a certain pose (as already stated above), I expect this to be the initial (memorized) pose. So this too for the dForce simulation.

    Everything else appears to be wrong that way.

    Post edited by AndyS on
  • Daywalker DesignsDaywalker Designs Posts: 3,586
    AndyS said:

    If I load a scene with a character already being in a certain pose (as already stated above), I expect this to be the initial (memorized) pose. So this too for the dForce simulation.

    Everything else appears to be wrong that way.

    If the character pose has not specifically been marked as memorized, DS will use the default one.

  • AndySAndyS Posts: 1,434
    edited October 2017
    Daywalker Designs said:
    AndyS said:

    If I load a scene with a character already being in a certain pose (as already stated above), I expect this to be the initial (memorized) pose. So this too for the dForce simulation.

    Everything else appears to be wrong that way.

    If the character pose has not specifically been marked as memorized, DS will use the default one.

    Its getting more mysterious - How to?
    If I open a scene, even subset, DAZ starts with the last pose I saved the file. - EVER

    And now with 4.10 everything should be completely different ??

    Post edited by AndyS on
  • Daywalker DesignsDaywalker Designs Posts: 3,586
    AndyS said:
    Daywalker Designs said:
    AndyS said:

    If I load a scene with a character already being in a certain pose (as already stated above), I expect this to be the initial (memorized) pose. So this too for the dForce simulation.

    Everything else appears to be wrong that way.

    If the character pose has not specifically been marked as memorized, DS will use the default one.

    Its getting more mysterious - How to?
    If I open a scene, even subset, DAZ starts with the last pose I saved the file. - EVER

    And now with 4.10 everything should be completely different ??

    The pose position saved in a scene has never been the same as a memorized pose, unless the pose in question has been marked as such at some point.

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