Where are the Gen 5's?

Dartanbeck · March 2013

One more thing to report concerning the DIM:
I find it bizarre at best that the zips are larger than the exe files since DIM downloads so friggin' fast!

fixmypcmike · March 2013

Dartanbeck said:
One more thing to report concerning the DIM:
I find it bizarre at best that the zips are larger than the exe files since DIM downloads so friggin' fast!

What zips have you found that are larger than the exe's? They're always about 5MB smaller.

DIM does download awfully fast.

Dartanbeck · March 2013

I haven't. But there have been reports by ManStan that they're bigger.

ManStan · March 2013

Dartanbeck said:
I haven't. But there have been reports by ManStan that they're bigger.

Yes. Some times just a couple of meg, some times twice as big. But I will admit, I have only checked a few items when I was purging; lol, my old Mat and Maddie runtime. I'll check this further as I achieve other figures. I'm trying to clear out at least 25 gig of old unused content.

And what is the hardest part? finding the item in my order history lol But for Dartanbeck I'll do some deeper research. :)

static · March 2013

Allowing DIM to load everything still leaves many files in the wrong place
Can you elaborate in that,..
DIM will only install files to the location you direct it to, whether that's a Content Library or a Runtime folder

Part 1:
Yeah, This will take a while, but I'll get back to you and I'll try to make my meaning clear with a printout and some screens - I'm not fast at the keyboard, so this will take time.

I have a Library folder with a Runtime folder and a Content folder. Inside the content folder is another Runtime Folder and another Content folder, and inside that is yet another Runtime folder.
Can you make a note of the products inside those folders,. then they can be updated to install correctly.

Part 2:
Yes, see part 1 answer...

In addition, DIM has provided me with three folders containing Aiko 3 Clothes and four containing Stephanie 3 clothes. The problem here, is that I don’t know how the folders are going to load until I tell them to, and If I rearrange the folders to better organize my content, then DIM no longer knows where that content is, so it cannot properly update it.
I think you and Stan are both misunderstanding what DIM is and does.

firstly,. developers don't develop products in a random fashion,. they have to follow a defined set of folders so that the user can easily install and use that product in DS or Poser.

Part 3:
No, I understand perfectly what it is trying to do and what it, so far, does, and I understand that it is in Beta, so they are not through. What I think is happening, though, is that they are not aware of the capabilities their own program has. They have unlocked the secrets of the universe and only want to get the answer to the common cold.

DIM takes a look at your purchases through DAZ 3D, It then decides if that purchase is Content, or Other (Applications like DAZ Studio, or Carrara, or even DIM itself fit in this category, as do Informational items such as Dreamlight's 7 Steps To Great Art Now). Ignoring the Other, it lists the Content Items you have purchased (or otherwise legitimately acquired such as freebies). Based on the options you have set, it then downloads the files your request from said list to the location you selected.

This is great, terrific, even. But it falls short of its potential. - But let's put a pin in that for a moment...

When Dim processes the information you gave it and selects a file to download. This file is some form of archive (zip, rar, exe, whatever [yes they are usually zips, but archives come in many styles and I just named a few of the more common types]).
DIM now blindly opens that archive for extraction. It does not pre-read the archive for folder structure, thus it extracts the archive to the structure it was compressed in. Sometimes these structures are the same, sometimes they are not.
You have mentioned that:

developers don’t develop products in a random fashion,. they have to follow a defined set of folders so that the user can easily install and use that product in DS or Poser.

This is not entirely correct. They don't "have to", they just should.

DAZ has, over the years, changed the folder structure used to house content. I won't speak to any specific DAZ Product as, off the top of my head, I cannot name a particular "DAZ" product that violates their chosen structure, but DAZ does not just sell "DAZ" products. Their have been, and continue to be, products sold in the DAZ Store whose folder structure does NOT conform to that set out by DAZ.
These products are still capable of being handled by the DIM.

Poser (at least through Poser 7) uses the following folder structure for content (by default, as the program installs it):
C:\Program Files (x86)\e frontier\Poser 7\Runtime
C:\Program Files (x86)\e frontier\Poser 7\Runtime\Geometries -- for obj files
C:\Program Files (x86)\e frontier\Poser 7\Runtime\Libraries\Camera -- for cm2, cmz files
C:\Program Files (x86)\e frontier\Poser 7\Runtime\Libraries\Character -- for cr2, crz files
C:\Program Files (x86)\e frontier\Poser 7\Runtime\Libraries\Face -- for fc2, fcz files
C:\Program Files (x86)\e frontier\Poser 7\Runtime\Libraries\Hair -- for hr2, hrz files
C:\Program Files (x86)\e frontier\Poser 7\Runtime\Libraries\Hand -- for hd2, hdz files
C:\Program Files (x86)\e frontier\Poser 7\Runtime\Libraries\Light -- for lt2, ltz files
C:\Program Files (x86)\e frontier\Poser 7\Runtime\Libraries\Materials -- for mc6, mcz files
C:\Program Files (x86)\e frontier\Poser 7\Runtime\Libraries\Pose -- for pz2, p2z files
C:\Program Files (x86)\e frontier\Poser 7\Runtime\Libraries\Props -- for pp2, ppz files

etc, etc, la di da, blah, blah, blah, yadda, yadda, so on and so forth.

In DAZ Studio 4.5 the following structures exist:
C:\Users\static\Documents\DAZ 3D\Studio\My Library\ -- within this folder are many of the folders seen above in Libraries
C:\Users\static\Documents\DAZ 3D\Studio\My Library\Runtime\ (for Poser/Poser-like files and structures)
C:\Users\static\Documents\DAZ 3D\Studio\My Library\Data -- for D|S files such as maps, morphs, geometries, etc
C:\Users\static\Documents\DAZ 3D\Studio\My Library\Content -- for D|S files following similar structure as above in Libraries (um, can you say redundant?
C:\Users\static\Documents\DAZ 3D\Studio\My Library\Presets -- for D|S files following similar structure as above in Libraries (whoa, deja vu)

Thus, you end up with a Library that has, for example:
C:\Users\static\Documents\DAZ 3D\Studio\My Library\Poses
C:\Users\static\Documents\DAZ 3D\Studio\My Library\Presets\Poses
C:\Users\static\Documents\DAZ 3D\Studio\My Library\Content\Poses
C:\Users\static\Documents\DAZ 3D\Studio\My Library\Content\Presets\Poses
C:\Users\static\Documents\DAZ 3D\Studio\My Library\Data
C:\Users\static\Documents\DAZ 3D\Studio\My Library\Content\Data

Where was that V4 pose I wanted to use?

Now, take all this and put DIM to work. What do you get?:
C:\Users\Public\Documents\My DAZ 3D Library\Poses
C:\Users\Public\Documents\My DAZ 3D Library\Presets\Poses
C:\Users\Public\Documents\My DAZ 3D Library\Content\Poses
C:\Users\Public\Documents\My DAZ 3D Library\Content\Presets\Poses

This is getting boring...

And ReadMe files and folders are the most abused of all. They can, literally, be found "anywhere".

DIM has the potential to end this, but as of yet, makes no such effort. It simply does what it is told and gives us the illusion of control. That is why ManStan unzips to temp folders first, then straightens out somebody's mess and places the result into a neatly organized and structured set of folders.

To "Organize your content" does not mean manually rearranging files. (which usually breaks links between the product files)
You can organize your main Runtime or Library folders, the way you want,. and have as many as you want,.. and use dim to install products into those locations.

Yes, if, and only if, you can get them to design a function that reads the archive and installs only items with proper folder structure.

As far as organising the "visual display" of content,,. you can use Daz Studio (category view) to create "virtual" categories,. then place content (Virtually) into those categories,..
All without moving a single file,. and all without breaking the links between any product files.

You select which folder which DIM installs products to,. and you can set up as many "Install locations" as you want,.
as long as you use DIM to install a product,., two things will happen.

1,/ DIM creates an entry for that product,. so that it can be updated,.. or uninstalled.
2./ DIM will add the products metadata to the CMS database.

That CMS Database info, supplies the "Smart content" tab's in DS and Carrara 8.5 BETA,. with the product thumbnails.

So in Carrara, or DS,. ..after installing a product,. it will either show up in the Smart content tab, or the Content Tab

Yes, if, and only if, you can get them to design a function that reads the archive and installs only items with proper folder structure.

You lost me completely when you asked about installing products to a custom folder layout for your runtime.

Products are created using a "FIXED" folder structure,. if you deviate in a folder name,. then that product will be rejected by Daz3D, because it wont work for the user.

So the folder structure isn't something that developers can ignore,.

I think we've already covered this

they need to work to the existing Runtime / Libraries structure

See the structure lists above. Those are existing structures.

To install third party "Zip" files,. those Zip files would need to be made to work in DIM, in the same way that Daz3D have been converting all of the products in the store into ZIP.
It's not some new "feature" which needs to be added to DIM,. it's the Zips.

That's exactly the feature that it needs, the ability to convert incorrect zips. At the very least, DIM needs to be able to recognize a file structure that will 'gum up the works', warn the user, and copy the archive to a temp folder so that the user can straighten them out if they so desire.

Lastly,. DIM is a first release,. it's a "beta" and it's being updated to allow it to install products for Bryce, Carrara, and other software.
so,. it's by no means a finished product.
I'm glad you're seeing some potential in using it.

:)

Well, as I said, I realize it's a Beta, that's why I'm not discarding it. It has potential and it has time. All it needs is for it's dev's to see that potential, in time, and exploit it to the advantage of us all.

:coolgrin:

static · March 2013

Just for the record, I like the DIM and I have no problems using it, but until they work out the bugs, I have to use it one item at a time to work out the bugs myself.

That is why 'knowing how' is so very important. I can do all the work myself, as ManStan does, or I can use the loaders. It makes less difference to me than it does to him, apparently, but I see nothing wrong with his viewpoint on this. There's a lot to be said for the do-it-yourself style.

I believe the biggest problem with new users not understanding how the file structure works is the lack of what some call the 'dumbed-down' instructions. I can say from personal experience, that 3D modelling is appealing to users at all levels of experience. The problem is that the most experienced users give a lot of the answers to the new users. While this is a good thing, and keep in mind I am NOT speaking of anyone in this thread, I have seen many threads where the 'help' given, is given at such high levels of tech-speak, or interspersed with so much program-specific jargon, that a new-level user is completely lost by what two experienced users consider 'absolutely understandable' terms.

If a team of people could get together and write basic, step by step tutorials in plain english, instead of technical jargon, They would have less dazed DAZ users. ;-P

ManStan · March 2013

So far

exe zip

357Magnum 6.91m 7.25m

dave 3 3piece suit 40.14m 39.8

Dave head morphs 18.1 20.7

David body morphs 10.2 11.6

Note: the 3 piece suit went from 2 installers to 1 zip.

fixmypcmike · March 2013

ManStan said:
So far
exe zip

357Magnum 6.91m 7.25m

dave 3 3piece suit 40.14m 39.8

Dave head morphs 18.1 20.7

David body morphs 10.2 11.6

Note: the 3 piece suit went from 2 installers to 1 zip.

Interesting. I lost all my backups, so I can't compare those. Did you check what was different about the content?

fixmypcmike · March 2013

Having a Content folder under My Library is definitely wrong -- I've found a few zips which have that error.

Dartanbeck · March 2013

I have to agree that hte D|S library structure is just horrible. Being very new to actually installing to D|S (since Genesis), I had no clue that it was so borked. I've been playing around with D|S since beta version 0.7, but always used my runtimes structure. But when I bought a Genesis product that installed to the wrong location, and contacted support regarding the problem, they literally fixed it in the store downloads the very next day. What gets me is how incredibly simply these folder tructures are to follow, once you get used to them. Seeing a folder out of place on a single product at a time is really simple. So why is it so incredibly wrong? The instructions for product submission demand that you follow the structure - and like I just said, a structure that's really simple to follow if you want your content to work. This whole thing just messes with my brain. Perhaps it's due to changes in library structures over many years or something? I hope so - because the best resolution I can find right now is to try and keep the My Daz3d Library strictly for Genesis products, and use Poser Runtimes for the rest. At least until a solid structure is tried and proven.

The problems that I've dislike about Poser runtimes getting out of hand isn't from Daz3d. They were the one's who had the most organized structure that I've seen - along with several others. Sure you can fix it on an individual basis, instead of simply dragging the runtime folder to where it belongs, but it was a while before I realized what was going on - because I was using the content more than looking at the folder structures. I guess I'm just bummed that the content creators themselves cannot at the very least stick with the structure. When there's already a common place within the structure where everybody's supposed to put this type of file, put your files in that place - not a brand new one. Brand new one's suck!

I'm still going to strive to include D|S into my work flow, but I guess D|S only content will not be part of that - with the exception of Genesis and it's related product, which all seem to have been pretty good at behaving the structure laid before them.

static · March 2013

Allowing DIM to load everything still leaves many files in the wrong place
Can you elaborate in that,..
DIM will only install files to the location you direct it to, whether that’s a Content Library or a Runtime folder

This is what I mean by "Allowing DIM to load everything still leaves many files in the wrong place"

Follow closely:

Opening C:\Users\Public\Documents\My DAZ 3D Library, the first folder here is:
C:\Users\Public\Documents\My DAZ 3D Library\Aiko 3\Clothing\Materials\Elea Outfit
Just one outfit and nothing more to do with Aiko 3

The next likely poorly placed folder is:
C:\Users\Public\Documents\My DAZ 3D Library\Camera Presets\Alchemy Chasm
Once again, the only thing here is a camera preset for Alchemy Chasm

C:\Users\Public\Documents\My DAZ 3D Library\Architecture\Opus Magnum
I know I have more Architecture...somewhere

C:\Users\Public\Documents\My DAZ 3D Library\Dystopia\City Blocks
A good place for this would be Architecture

C:\Users\Public\Documents\My DAZ 3D Library\Environment\CheyenneAcc
C:\Users\Public\Documents\My DAZ 3D Library\Environment\Nerd3D\Cave System

now watch this...

C:\Users\Public\Documents\My DAZ 3D Library\Environments\Architecture -- notice the 's'
This folder has 48 different items in it.

C:\Users\Public\Documents\My DAZ 3D Library\Environments\DAZ Environment\Millenium Environment\Lands_of_the_Sun
This one is a bit lonely

C:\Users\Public\Documents\My DAZ 3D Library\Environments\Nature\Lisa'sBotanicals\Dahlia
C:\Users\Public\Documents\My DAZ 3D Library\Environments\Nature\Lisa'sBotanicals\GlobeThistle

C:\Users\Public\Documents\My DAZ 3D Library\Environments\The Core\Space Relic

Hair!
C:\Users\Public\Documents\My DAZ 3D Library\Hair\AprilYSH
wait, what, that's it?

This is fun...
C:\Users\Public\Documents\My DAZ 3D Library\Light Presets
I have 5 items in here...
C:\Users\Public\Documents\My DAZ 3D Library\Lights
and 4 in here...why aren't these in presets?. Or, why aren't the presets in here?

All those Materials! We are spirits...
C:\Users\Public\Documents\My DAZ 3D Library\Materials
All five of us?

Merlin gets his own folder on the top level... Important guy, I guess
C:\Users\Public\Documents\My DAZ 3D Library\Merlin\Saxon

I guess Merlin isn't the only one who rates top billing
C:\Users\Public\Documents\My DAZ 3D Library\P3DA\P3DA_Troglodyte

People!
C:\Users\Public\Documents\My DAZ 3D Library\People
C:\Users\Public\Documents\My DAZ 3D Library\People\Aiko\Aiko 3\Clothing\Sacred Luna\deeana
but that's just clothes
C:\Users\Public\Documents\My DAZ 3D Library\People\Aiko 3
This has 4 clothing outfits and a Hair
This begs the question, does Aiko 3 belong here or up one level with Aiko 3
C:\Users\Public\Documents\My DAZ 3D Library\People\Aiko 4\Textures\Anime
Nothing here but Anime Textures
C:\Users\Public\Documents\My DAZ 3D Library\People\David\Clothing\David Morphing Clothes\Travelor\Buckled
Wow, all those sub-folders for one clothing texture
C:\Users\Public\Documents\My DAZ 3D Library\People\David\Clothing\TheTravalor
Ok, is it TheTravalor or Travelor?
C:\Users\Public\Documents\My DAZ 3D Library\People\David 3\Clothing\David Morphing Clothes\Travalor\HMGWatchers
Another long way down for one clothing Texture, and look! a third spelling!
C:\Users\Public\Documents\My DAZ 3D Library\People\David 3\MAT Century Suit
Well at least there's MATs in here for an outfit I can't find in here...

This is cute...
C:\Users\Public\Documents\My DAZ 3D Library\Content
This contains Architecture, data, Materials, People, Props, and Runtime
C:\Users\Public\Documents\My DAZ 3D Library\Content\Runtime
this contains textures and a Content
C:\Users\Public\Documents\My DAZ 3D Library\Content\Runtime\Content
this contains an empty readme folder

Hey, here's another Runtime
C:\Users\Public\Documents\My DAZ 3D Library\Runtime

Had enough? Cause really, I could go on all night. Well, I couldn't, but these misplaced folders do.
All of these were placed by DIM, by default location.

I have provided some screens, but I'm getting tired so this should be enough to get my point across.

That's what I, and I'm sure ManStan as well, mean when we talk about bad file and folder placement.

All of this has to be redone in one form or another. Either by having DIM uninstall, then reinstall for each specific messed up item, or by manually cutting and pasting these files to their proper place, or even using D|S cataloging to virtual locations (which still consumes time).

If they were done right in the first place, we wouldn't have to spend that extra time doing it ourselves. no matter what method you prefer.
But they weren't done right in the first place, and that's the whole point, right there.

ManStan · March 2013

fixmypcmike said:
ManStan said:
So far
exe zip

357Magnum 6.91m 7.25m

dave 3 3piece suit 40.14m 39.8

Dave head morphs 18.1 20.7

David body morphs 10.2 11.6

Note: the 3 piece suit went from 2 installers to 1 zip.

Interesting. I lost all my backups, so I can't compare those. Did you check what was different about the content?

David's tunic exe is 3.83m, the zip is 4.09. They both create a 14.9 folder with identical files.

staticdrifter that is because DAZ has 5-6 different type EXEs out, that want to install to 4 different places One of the bonuses to installing to a dummy folder before drag and dropping to the "my library" folder is avoiding imbedded runtime/content folders.
It's been my experience when installing older content; like before the content folder went to my library, if it can't find a content folder to install to it will create one.

3DAGE · March 2013

Hi Static drifter,.

Now I see what you mean,.. The internal organisation of the folders within the main "Library" folder is not to your liking. and you want to spend time reorganising it,. that's fair enough, and you're right to point out that some products are installed to Environment, and some to Environments, and there are other folder inconsistencies.

Fortunately,. the most important fact is that the product is within the main "Library", and that the files for those products are in their correct respective locations,. which means that whether the product is installed to environment or environments, that the product installs and works as expected.

Now,. one other thing to bear in mind,..

Over the past couple of months,. Daz3D have built DIM, and converted most of the products in the store, by adding meta-data and tag's to each of those products,. so that two things can happen,.. the database can organise the products based on tags / meta-data,. and the physical product can be updated more easily.

In the process of changing those products to ZIP,. some issues may have been missed with folder names,. ( it's a beta),. and it's hoped that anyone finding issues like these would report them in the Bug tracker,. so that they can be resolved.

I don't have every product,. so I can't check your Aiko3 / Clothing, but, I think that one should be reported
(My DAZ 3D Library\Aiko 3\) does not seem correct.

ultimately it makes no difference when using the product, whether it's located in clothing / aiko3, or in aiko3 /clothing,. as long as the structure of the installed files,.. retains the structure of original product,. then the product will work as the developer intended.

Dartanbeck · March 2013

ManStan said:
So far
exe zip

357Magnum 6.91m 7.25m

dave 3 3piece suit 40.14m 39.8

Dave head morphs 18.1 20.7

David body morphs 10.2 11.6

I just went to download Blender, and you can get an installer at 42 MB, or the Zip for 60 MB or a 7zip for 41 MB.

static · March 2013

Dartanbeck said:
I just went to download Blender, and you can get an installer at 42 MB, or the Zip for 60 MB or a 7zip for 41 MB.

7-zip Rules!

static · March 2013

ManStan said:
staticdrifter that is because DAZ has 5-6 different type EXEs out, that want to install to 4 different places One of the bonuses to installing to a dummy folder before drag and dropping to the "my library" folder is avoiding imbedded runtime/content folders.
It's been my experience when installing older content; like before the content folder went to my library, if it can't find a content folder to install to it will create one.

Yeah, that's what I was trying to get across, but I wasn't being clear, I guess. Thanks for bringing it up concisely.
I have been doing it individually, like you do, for a while, but I wanted to give DIM a try. I always give the 'new kid' a try. Then I was trying to point out the good points and bad, in comparison. I am with you in sentiment, I just try to go with the new 'innovations' because, all told, I have much less content to deal with than you do, so I keep hoping DAZ will make something that will manage my stuff without screwing it up. (I'm a 'vote for the underdog' guy).

I just hope that when they do get the bugs worked out of the system, they consider working with more than just DAZ content, because, as I am sure you well know, that while they may be the source of a majority of excellent works, there is a much, much larger percentage of upgrades and improvements than there are originals.

Fight the good fight!

static · March 2013

3DAGE said:
ultimately it makes no difference when using the product, whether it's located in clothing / aiko3, or in aiko3 /clothing,. as long as the structure of the installed files,.. retains the structure of original product,. then the product will work as the developer intended.

I understand that the product ultimately works, but if you can't find it, or if you lose track of why you desire it while your trying to locate it, then penultimately, it degrades the use and value of the product.

And in "Art", that is not a good thing.

That's what I have been trying to get across about this. The product works, but it does not work well. Not that the product can't be used, but that it is a nuisance to use. Sometimes.

Dartanbeck · March 2013

3DAGE said:

ultimately it makes no difference when using the product, whether it's located in clothing / aiko3, or in aiko3 /clothing,. as long as the structure of the installed files,.. retains the structure of original product,. then the product will work as the developer intended.

Unless you get the dreaded: "Please locate this file: "V7ockIsdEad.jpg" and you have to try and dig through that? I thought they just rebuilt all this stuff? Sorry. Not trying to be nasty. But it makes for a slop archive, and those of us who like to further edit textures and so fourth shouldn't have this to deal with. It's crazy - and it all comes from the same store.
There. I'm done griping :)

Your right though, 3dage. When I freaked about the folders and such, it still has it's place in the file system and works properly. Now I just have to learn where to go for the stuff, since 8.5 shows all of those folders.

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