Carrara is just so unexplanably DIFFERENT ~ bizarrest thread ever (and why we should probably leave)

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Comments

  • ManStanManStan Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    True, I never go to the DAZ freepizory. The only part of this forum I use is the carrara section. If I want carrarest made freebies I go here http://carraracafe.com/downloads/

  • wetcircuitwetcircuit Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    chohole said:
    I am really not quite certain why the Carrara people are making such a fuss about the rules after 6 years of it running....

    :smirk: Strange how some people just one day get uppity when they use to accepted it....

    I do not understand the damage this will cause to the contest, indeed you have never claimed there will be damage to the contest, you just keep repeating that it's funny that we never complained before... As if that somehow responds to any of the points we have made.

    No, actually we never "accepted" it, and what is disappointing us TODAY is not another render contest where we are not welcome, but (for lack of a better term) the cold way you seem to mock us, rather than admit that yeah, there really is no justification for this bias, and it's easily corrected.... That is the "bizarre" part of the other thread (and now here too) which I felt the need to bring to my community's attention.

    This is painfully obvious to almost everyone in this thread. But I'll put it in words so we can be on the record here, and there is no mistake what we are talking about.

    You see, we need to have a certain "faith" in DAZ 3D, the owners of our program, that even though we are told again and again to wait our turn on line, that day will finally come and they will make good on our investment -- after 8 months using a beta that is riddled with flaws (but better than the last released version), we have been literally holding on to faith that our turn will come.... But what we have seen here is that apparently if some people have their way, that day might never come... Even stranger they cannot put a name to that agenda or seem to admit to it, even though they are overwhelmingly outnumbered with people who respectfully disagree.... And continue to disagree, calmly, and explaining how we see this situation as biased to our detriment.

    And that doesn't look very good for any of us continuing to invest our time or knowledge or money or faith here where we are so clearly unwelcome in your reindeer games, and this bias which is so painfully obvious to us all, continues to be dismissed as somehow Jim Crow "normal" because it has always been that way.

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  • 3dView3dView Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    yikes......hey folks ---If Daz wants to have a contest and exclude whatever ----it's their game. Is it Fair? ---I threw out that word in fifth grade ----its just a mirage anyhow . So just let it go. Its just Daz ----being .....well Daz .
    And also ----they have given us Carraracafe ---is that fair? See ......................its a daz world.

    so lets have fun ..instead of worrying about some contest.

    I knew i should have stayed over at Carraracafe.


    Rich

  • Design AcrobatDesign Acrobat Posts: 459
    edited December 1969

    I have nothing to add, but just wanted to be part of this thread in case it gets deleted.

  • ChoholeChohole Posts: 30,251
    edited March 2013

    Holly I do keep stressing that the Freebie Challenge is a fun thing, invented by and run by a bunch of forum people, it is not an official contest in the way everyone keeps thinking it is. Yes OK DAZ 3D has agreed to give us a modicum of sponsorship, after Music went on his bended knees to them and asked if maybe we could have a little something to add to the prize list, but they do not interfere in the way it is run, and they do not dictate the rules.

    So the stance that is being made by the freebie challenge team is in no way an indication of what DAZ 3D's policy towards Carrara is.

    If you read Music's post in the locked thread I think he explained it quite well. He run's the challenge,with the help of a team, and it is very obvious that he has no standing at DAZ 3D other than being just another forum member. I am the only member of the team who has any other status, and was a member of the team before I volunteered to be a mod. I have offered to leave the team in order to make it clear that this is the status quo, that the Freebie Challenge is a challenge run by members of the forum, for members of the forum, and is only that, not an official challenge at all. I would rather do that than have discussions like this, with all the extreme views being posted, end up being the death knell of a fun and friendly challenge which has run for 6 years.

    The freebie challenge team are not biased against Carrara people in any way, shape or form. However Carrara is in no way on an equal footing with DS or Poser (or even Bryce used as a render engine). Carrara does more than they do individually. I guess you could probably say that Carrara does what DS, Bryce and Hexagon do when used as a package, and then some. In this case I do not mean Bryce as the full program, but Bryce being used as an alternative render engine, which is the way it is used by the one or two people who do use it in the challenge.

    Post edited by Chohole on
  • de3ande3an Posts: 837
    edited December 1969

    Since the Freebie Team has changed the contest by adding DAZ3D provided prizes, why not also change the rules to welcome all DAZ software users. Then add extensions to the rules allowing Poser, and any other free 3D app.

    Make the contest about creatively using free content, rather than about which program was used to render it.

    There have been a few User sponsored Carrara forum contest, but it seems that not too many Carrara users participate in them. It doesn't seem likely that there would be a flood of Carrara entries in the freebie contest. And the use of Carrara does not guarantee a superior render.

    If the Freebie Team doesn't want to include the entire DAZ family, then perhaps they should drop the DAZ3D provided prizes, since I believe that is the main point of contention.

  • evilproducerevilproducer Posts: 8,964
    edited December 1969

    de3an said:
    Since the Freebie Team has changed the contest by adding DAZ3D provided prizes, why not also change the rules to welcome all DAZ software users. Then add extensions to the rules allowing Poser, and any other free 3D app.

    Make the contest about creatively using free content, rather than about which program was used to render it.

    There have been a few User sponsored Carrara forum contest, but it seems that not too many Carrara users participate in them. It doesn't seem likely that there would be a flood of Carrara entries in the freebie contest. And the use of Carrara does not guarantee a superior render.

    If the Freebie Team doesn't want to include the entire DAZ family, then perhaps they should drop the DAZ3D provided prizes, since I believe that is the main point of contention.


    Well said.


    When I first saw the contest years ago, I initially thought it was about free content in the scene. When I looked at the ridiculous rule about software I blew it off and forgot about it as not being worth the effort.


    It may sound strange, but I still don't really care to participate. So why complain? Because as de3an mentioned, it is now sponsored by DAZ. I don't care who it's run by, it's still sponsored by them. It makes no sense to punish someone for their choice of software- especially if it's been given away in the past.- and it's a DAZ title.


    BTW, DAZ Studio isn't really free either. According to the EULA from the most recent version I have (maybe 3) it's considered Tellware. See screen shot to see what that entails:

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  • de3ande3an Posts: 837
    edited December 1969

    Perhaps the Carrara community should approach DAZ3D to see if they would also provide prizes for regular Carrara render and modeling contests. (Using the precedent of the Freebie challenge.)

    Participation in Carrara contests have been somewhat weak in the past, but perhaps the promise of prizes would boost involvement. Simple theme or challenge based contests would be something that could generate interest in both Carrara and Content at the same time (in other words, good advertising).

    I know I'd like to see more contests.

  • wetcircuitwetcircuit Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    chohole said:
    Holly I do keep stressing that the Freebie Challenge is a fun thing...

    ...

    I have offered to leave the team in order to make it clear that this is the status quo, that the Freebie Challenge is a challenge run by members of the forum, for members of the forum, and is only that, not an official challenge at all. I would rather do that than have discussions like this, with all the extreme views being posted, end up being the death knell of a fun and friendly challenge which has run for 6 years.

    The freebie challenge team are not biased against Carrara people in any way, shape or form.

    Chohole... I assure you we are all "members of the forum" here posting in this forum.... That you believe we do not fit that description baffles me... How are we not members of the forum?

    An elaborate use of 3 programs is allowed to achieve an outside render - and that is allowed, but Carrara is disqualified because it does it in 1 program...? I'm sorry, this is simply not making any sort of consistent sense. I see no logical conclusion there. I see a strange inconsistent justification that defies logic.

    The "fun" does does not need to "end" just because your friends are stubborn and apparently biased. Actually, on the contrary MORE FUN could be had by EVERYONE... It would be their stubbornness and bias that killed it, since allowing us to participate would not in any way damage the contest. You have NOT explained what damage it would do, so I can only interpret it that if they are forced to "share" they would rather not play at all... Do you have children? I suddenly feel as if I do....

    Obviously there is a bias, and we all see it. You are the only one denying it. I'm sorry you believe you alone see some "good" in a biased exclusion policy while the rest of us all here disagree, ... have you noticed you are the ONLY person here of that opinion? How do you explain that if it is logical and obvious? We remain unconvinced, and I am forced to continue to point out the circular flaws in your arguments which are inconsistent with what you say about the other programs. I can continue to calmly point it out as many times as you keep using these odd excuses. We don't have to agree and I will tirelessly continue to point out this bias so long as you keep claiming it does not exist. WE ALL assure you, it does exist, and you are unfortunately proving it to us with each and every post here. No hostility, but we simply can not accept excuses that do not make sense. We will continue to call it what it is: a bias with no basis in logic or reality.

    If that brings an end to DAZ 3D's sponsorship, or an end to the contest, I am ok with that. We would all prefer the contest be opened up to all forum users since you claim it is "friendly" and "fun" (I am waiting to believe you when it finally does become fun for us at some point...), but you say your friends would rather "kill the baby" than share it -- What would King Solomon say?

    Since this is the Carrara forum, I doubt you will be converting anyone here to your point of view. We are not going away.... I'm quite baffled that you keep posting here and fueling this. No one has been convinced by your explanations. We all point out the flaws in this situation, and why the issue is not just a "fun" contest open to all members of this forum. Respectfully, I don't think you will "win" this discussion. If I do not post several others will. No one else is agreeing with you. We simply do not believe your reasons.

  • 3dOutlaw3dOutlaw Posts: 1,907
    edited December 1969

    I have nothing to add, but just wanted to be part of this thread in case it gets deleted.

    LOL! I for one don't have much to say (someones contest, someones rules, take part or not), but I do love a funny post every now and then! :lol: Well played, Design Acrobat!

  • ManStanManStan Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    de3an said:
    Since the Freebie Team has changed the contest by adding DAZ3D provided prizes, why not also change the rules to welcome all DAZ software users. Then add extensions to the rules allowing Poser, and any other free 3D app.

    Make the contest about creatively using free content, rather than about which program was used to render it.

    There have been a few User sponsored Carrara forum contest, but it seems that not too many Carrara users participate in them. It doesn't seem likely that there would be a flood of Carrara entries in the freebie contest. And the use of Carrara does not guarantee a superior render.

    If the Freebie Team doesn't want to include the entire DAZ family, then perhaps they should drop the DAZ3D provided prizes, since I believe that is the main point of contention.

    Agree. I think the time it took for this to be brought to light as an issue is proof of that ;)

    But hey, there are challenges for us carraests on the carraracafe that are really about nothing but the fun of it. Not a contest, no prizes ;)
    And guess what? Bryce, Poser, Studio, and Blender can't play :P We might let Hex play but he better behave :coolgrin:

  • evilproducerevilproducer Posts: 8,964
    edited December 1969

    ManStan said:
    de3an said:
    Since the Freebie Team has changed the contest by adding DAZ3D provided prizes, why not also change the rules to welcome all DAZ software users. Then add extensions to the rules allowing Poser, and any other free 3D app.

    Make the contest about creatively using free content, rather than about which program was used to render it.

    There have been a few User sponsored Carrara forum contest, but it seems that not too many Carrara users participate in them. It doesn't seem likely that there would be a flood of Carrara entries in the freebie contest. And the use of Carrara does not guarantee a superior render.

    If the Freebie Team doesn't want to include the entire DAZ family, then perhaps they should drop the DAZ3D provided prizes, since I believe that is the main point of contention.

    Agree. I think the time it took for this to be brought to light as an issue is proof of that ;)

    But hey, there are challenges for us carraests on the carraracafe that are really about nothing but the fun of it. Not a contest, no prizes ;)
    And guess what? Bryce, Poser, Studio, and Blender can't play :P We might let Hex play but he better behave :coolgrin:


    But I can't play in the Jellyfish challenge as I don't have C8.... :-P

  • ManStanManStan Posts: 0
    edited March 2013


    But I can't play in the Jellyfish challenge as I don't have C8.... :-P

    Don't get too worked up. That damned jelly fish doesn't want to cooperate.

    Post edited by ManStan on
  • Wendy_CarraraWendy_Carrara Posts: 20,589
    edited December 1969

    there's a jellyfish challenge?

  • DartanbeckDartanbeck Posts: 14,604
    edited December 1969

    3doutlaw said:
    I have nothing to add, but just wanted to be part of this thread in case it gets deleted.

    LOL! I for one don't have much to say (someones contest, someones rules, take part or not), but I do love a funny post every now and then! :lol: Well played, Design Acrobat!I'm right there with you, 3doutlaw.
    I truly never really wanted to post in this discussion. It's just such a squishy thing to talk about. But once the whole thing settles in and a bit of honest rationality is applied to the whole concept, it truly raises the question: Why was there ever a rule to allow Poser without allowing Carrara? Very strange. Intentions and techniques used within any such software to create a final image is exactly as challenging in one application as it is in the next. They all have their strengths and weaknesses that challenge the artist to make the best of. This is what makes a render shine - no matter the engine used.

    I consider myself to be a guy that enjoys creating art. Poser came along, but it wasn't free... and I've never seen it free. Just because it may have been given away as some other sales promotion, that does not at all resemble a freebie. But it was fun and I loved it.
    Daz|Studio beta 0.7 comes to my attention as I discovered Victoria and Michael, The Millennium people. Wow... look at all the possibilities! Yum... and it was fun!
    This excitement is what drew me into seeking out something exactly like Carrara, except Carrara came packed with a lot more than what my meager wishes were, but I couldn't yet afford it as times were tough then. By the time that whole depressive condition passed, Daz3d had taken on Carrara in their lineup of killer software - and I'm not exaggerating. Bryce, Carrara, D|S 2.3, Hexagon... what an impressive sight that software section was. I think the presentation with all of the encyclopedia - style pages and images supporting the features list vastly surpasses the "Urgency to own" factor than what we have now, which is mostly just a quick explanation. When I was shopping for Carrara, gleaming as I strolled through the mouth watering, realistic representation of some of Carrara's possibilities, as with D|S, Hex and Bryce too... I drooled every time I looked trough that advertising suite that Daz3d had for them.

    Buying Carrara, in my opinion, left me smack dab in the middle of what I really wanted to be doing in Poser and D|S, and now I even own a sort of Bryce-esqueness to boot. I never felt that I left the Poser club. That's where I came from. That's the same resemblance of items I buy, the images I create, the time I spend. Carrara is the king of the tools in this regard, but I would never let that stop me if I were using any of the others. I'll use whatever software I have to do the same thing. Not everybody's like that, I know... but I'm just saying that Carrara is part of the same circle of apps that allow people to generate GGI - period. Which would then include Vue and whatever. It would be different if it was held in a specific area of the forum as (Poser Only) or( Daz|Studio Only), etc., but to have a render off that excludes renders on a pick and choose basis really seems more like gang-related activity more tan a "Fun", "Let's see what you can do" sort of contest.
    Any of these programs require a mind to direct the output. I would personally find it more fun if it were based on that rather than what software was used.

    On the other hand, if I checked out a render off thread and found it to not accept any of the techniques or software choices that appeal to me, I would just move on. People who offer up contests that arrange for a winner to receive a prize of some sort, they should have the freedom to create whatever rules they want - so long as they are clearly presented in the opening post, and that they apply equally to everyone participating in the challenge. Whatever their thought process behind creating the rules is irrelevant and are the binding understanding of the contest - no QA necessary. It would still be nice if a clear reason, plain and simple or very well explained, precisely to all contestants in the same manner, when asked: "Why?" in a rules discussion thread. "My friend down the street has Carrara... my renders never turn out as good as his, so I figured I'd dis-allow Carrara renders from my contest" is at least something.

    The funniest thing is that, if you created an image by first creating a beautiful, picturesque 360 degree landscape and rendered that out and wrapped it around a giant sphere for use in Poser, then used Carrara to import some aniBlock and scroll through to find just that right pose, and then use Fenric's BVH/Pz2 exporter to get the pose into Poser, and then rendered it in Poser, you'd be qualified. The whole rule against using Carrara is truly a questionable move - and it would really help some folks sleep better at night if somebody would either remove that silly portion, or be entirely clear, and probably dis-allow Poser as well, since it is trying to compete for top dog on the block, has earned one incredible reputation and user following, and can turn out to be one expensive shopping cart. If the "It's not a free software so you can't use it in this contest", then that should apply to Poser as well. Unless you used a "Free" version of Poser to create the image. How do you officiate that? The whole thing is just too controversial - and should really be resolved clearly and precisely, immediately. Really. It should. Just sayin'

    I really feel for those who feel offended in any way by either side. I'm not. I would just use the allowed software to create the image, if I wanted to play a part in the contest. Really, I would. But I can se how people could really take this to the heart, and I wish them all well, and a clear, and agreeable resolution.

    Peace
    Dartanbeck

  • cdordonicdordoni Posts: 571
    edited December 1969


    I see no logical conclusion there. I see a strange inconsistent justification that defies logic.

    I feel your pain, I know this all too well from personal experience. The difficulty is that logic and emotional responses don't mix. Applying logic in similar circumstances will always fail ;)

  • Wendy_CarraraWendy_Carrara Posts: 20,589
    edited December 1969

    I expressed my disappointment to Chohole once a while back when I learnt of the rules but accepted it as people can make what rules they wish for a comp, it is your choice to enter or not.
    instead of picking on them leave them be and start our own comp instead with whatever rules we wish.
    and maybe ask Daz for a prize too!

  • ManStanManStan Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    But art isn't a competition.

  • wetcircuitwetcircuit Posts: 0
    edited March 2013

    I expressed my disappointment to Chohole once a while back when I learnt of the rules but accepted it as people can make what rules they wish for a comp, it is your choice to enter or not.
    instead of picking on them leave them be and start our own comp instead with whatever rules we wish.
    and maybe ask Daz for a prize too!

    No one is "picking on them" lol. I just keep asking what is so different about Carrara - I'd really like to know.... They seem so convinced of it but can't articulate it in a believable way that I have to assume they don't really know themselves (it's just a feeling, I guess).

    And since Chohole claimed no Carrara users had ever said anything before but now you say you had, I think they may have faulty memories as well as faulty logic...?

    Post edited by wetcircuit on
  • Wendy_CarraraWendy_Carrara Posts: 20,589
    edited December 1969

    I did not in public but yes, in private not on forum

  • wetcircuitwetcircuit Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    But to your point, it has made me think about how "activities" at Cafe might be structured to be more inclusive.... For instance I'm not too interested in a "contest" or whatever that disallows the use of other programs - but it's bound to happen that a modelling contest expects everything to be done in Carrara, or a render challenge might exclude Poser content.... How do we learn from this bad example? How do we (at least) have consistent rules..., or possibly run a similar activity that might provide some of the same goals but makes up the difference.... Like having a "content" and "non-content" activity at the same time (or alternating monthlies).

    Perhaps more importantly, when grievances arise, how do we deal with them in a way that doesn't alienate or turn everyone off...?

  • evilproducerevilproducer Posts: 8,964
    edited December 1969

    If it's a Carrara cafe contest or challenge that wanted to test the skills of individuals using a Carrara modeler, such as the Spline, Metaball or Vertex Modeler, then I would say the rules should say the object needed to be modeled in Carrara. I could care less what application it was rendered in, as it would be a Carrara modeling challenge.


    If it's a lighting challenge or shader challenge, then I would suggest the rules state that it needed to be rendered in Carrara as they wouldn't translate well (if at all) to another app. The same would probably be true of a challenge to use volumetric clouds or some other Carrara function that cannot be exported.


    If it's a Carrara render challenge, then I see no reason not to allow custom models or DAZ/Poser style content as long as it's stated it's to challenge people to get a better render out of Carrara.

    A contest using free content may be a stickier wicket. My feeling is that if it's in a general forum like DAZ's Freepository forum, with a DAZ sponsored prize, then the subject of the renders should be the freebies and not the rendering software. If it's at the Carrara Cafe and it's clearly stated, then I have no problem with requiring Carrara be the rendering software. If there was a freebie render challenge in the Bryce or DAZ Studio forums, then I wouldn't consider it exclusionary because that's the subject of the forum. The Freepository is supposed to be a general 3D forum and should be software agnostic.


    If the contest is started as it was years ago and relied on the kindness of other forum members or PAs to provide the prize, then it should be whatever rules they want.

  • wetcircuitwetcircuit Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    If it's a Carrara cafe contest or challenge that wanted to test the skills of individuals using a Carrara modeler, such as the Spline, Metaball or Vertex Modeler, then I would say the rules should say the object needed to be modeled in Carrara. I could care less what application it was rendered in, as it would be a Carrara modeling challenge.


    If it's a lighting challenge or shader challenge, then I would suggest the rules state that it needed to be rendered in Carrara as they wouldn't translate well (if at all) to another app. The same would probably be true of a challenge to use volumetric clouds or some other Carrara function that cannot be exported.


    If it's a Carrara render challenge, then I see no reason not to allow custom models or DAZ/Poser style content as long as it's stated it's to challenge people to get a better render out of Carrara.


    All excellent points, all three! Seems very reasonable.... just compartmentalize the goal.
  • evilproducerevilproducer Posts: 8,964
    edited December 1969

    OOH! OOH! Another advantage of having a contest/challenge at the Carrara Cafe is that the subject matter can be a bit looser. I might smell another, Create the next Carrara 9 Bimbo(y) challenge! If I can figure out a way to attach images in the Cafe forum that is....

  • wetcircuitwetcircuit Posts: 0
    edited March 2013

    LOL! C9 BIMBO(Y) CHALLENGE!

    Post edited by wetcircuit on
  • ManStanManStan Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    I prefer a "challenge" over a "contest". In a challenge everyone that meets the challenge is a winner. In a contest the wining is more about presenting something the judges are looking for. As in the eye of the beholder.

    Thing is I don't see why a carrara contest on a carrara site should include anything but carrara. Right now I like the two challenges going on even though the primitives one means UVmapping and texture design; which may take a while lol And the jellyfish one; which has me slammed up against carrara bugs {deleting an animation does not remove it from the scene}

    Say it is a lighting challenge with specific scene rules. Must be indoors, must have 4-5 interior lights, must present an intimate mood. In this one any app could be used to setup/build the scene as long as the scene is rendered in carrara.

  • SockrateaseSockratease Posts: 813
    edited March 2013

    I may need help getting registered at Carrara Cafe.

    I have said repeatedly that I very rarely use the email associated with my 3D efforts, and now it seems I used it too little and the email service provider deleted the account, but I only found out after trying to register with it! Now it says Sockratease is a name in use and I need to choose another.

    Is there a way to get my name associated with another email address before activating?

    I tried to join a while ago, and when I noticed the email was gone I wasn't that concerned, as I felt this forum was enough and the Cafe was just one more forum membership to bog me down - so I let it go.

    I don't want to join under another name and am about to go set up some other email and start switching my accounts to use that one. Once that is done, to whom should I speak (write?) to get this addressed?

    And as for the question at hand in this topic - throughout all my rants about the freebie contest I made clear that it's theirs to do with as they please, but I vehemently disagree with their logic. I still got jumped on for expressing a view challenging their rules.

    My first guess at their reasons was a jest, but I'm beginning to think it was spot on!

    They are afraid of Carrara!

    We scare them.

    It's OK. We really don't mean to scare them, but apparently we do.

    I think my other joke should be taken seriously then.

    DAZ should give away Carrara 5 or 6 - just so we can poke more fun at them %-P

    We've already ruined any fun we may have at their contest, and the times I did enter it I must admit were fun. But I was using Carrara (exploiting the "DAZ" Loophole) (the monthly list of rules stated DAZ was an allowed program, which I chose to interpret the only logical way - Any DAZ software was allowed) (Surely they should have known better than to state DAZ when they meant to say DAZ Studio, so of course I was obviously correct).

    If I were capable of having fun with software that gives me headaches I'd participate, as I find that particular contest to be among the best ones on this site.

    It's a shame this has caused such a rift.

    Where is The Millennium Cow when we really need her? She'd set things right, I just know it!!

    Post edited by Sockratease on
  • wetcircuitwetcircuit Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    I may need help getting registered at Carrara Cafe.

    PM me when you have the email set up.
  • SockrateaseSockratease Posts: 813
    edited December 1969

    I may need help getting registered at Carrara Cafe.

    PM me when you have the email set up.

    All set!

    PM sent too.

    Thanks for assisting.

  • wetcircuitwetcircuit Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    I may need help getting registered at Carrara Cafe.

    PM me when you have the email set up.

    All set!

    PM sent too.

    Thanks for assisting.
    ;-) see you there!

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