Definitely not convinced on Genesis 8 yet.
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That's what wise men do :)
You've never done a side-by-side comparison of HDD and SSD then using your entire DAZ Studio content. 4TB will be affordable in SSD in the course of the next few years I'm sure. It's already more expensive to manufacture and source materials for HDD compared to SSDs.
Wow, flashback to Mad Men. Marketing hype really is powerful. It is possible to show all those human flaws with any of those generations. I'm guessing very few of us use G* out of the box in renders. The thing is that we still need Zev0 and others to add even more realism and versatility and some of us are not in a position to shell out for a whole replacement catalogue of morphs and additions every time a new generation is released.
PAs have to make a living and it is good that there are plenty of users with cash to spare (DAZ claim that G8 is the most successful launch to date) but it is a pity that the well dries up for G3 products so quickly. I guess that Rendo will always be an option for older generation products but their best artists often migrate to DAZ eventually.
You seem to not want to accept how technology works and changes over time - that's fine. I started here about a year and a half ago and I've worked almost exclusively with Genesis 3 since. And since the release of Genesis 8, I couldn't be happier. I've noticed quite an improvement in the areas I've repeatedly mentioned and you get all those improvements with a free base figure. You can continue to disparage G8 all you want. The truth is it IS a superior model, even if you don't want to accept it. If you want to keep using G3, that's your choice. There are people who still use V4 and are completely happy doing so. If you're happy with G3, that's awesome! Continue to use it. Others will move on to G8 and will be happy too. That's how it works to be human, not everyone is going to like the same thing. :)
This really doesn't make sense.
Let me break it down.
1. Genesis 8 certainly isn't a massive tech change from Genesis 3, and while most of what it has could have been built into G3, all of what has could not. And those things that could not are, technically, important. This means Daz had a reason of some sort to consider those things important. Otherwise, they'd have been equally served updating G3.
2. Given that Genesis 8 is not really a huge tech change over Genesis 3, something about those tech changes that could not be retrofitted into G3 had to be compelling for Daz. Something about them had to mean either zero or negative revenue growth if they did not do those things, according to their market projection. Otherwise they would not have done G8.
3. Here you go off the rails. Because, for some reason, your instinct is to consider what Daz is doing to be a personal attack. They are out to get you, as opposed to possibly having a more logical reason. Because somehow, you seem to surmise that by attack people like you, Daz will make money. This really doesn't make sense. Daz is in a position hwere, being the dominant force in its market, it need not coddle you, but it is not so huge as to actively antagonize "the average Joe." It makes no sense for them to do so, even from a dirty money grubbing point of view. In this case, exactly because G3 and G8 share so much basic structure. It has been trivial to convert between them, with vendors and hackers dropping conversion tech into the market from day one. To argue that one must be super special, while a member of this forum especially, to use the conversion items is silly. No Daz figure has worked to some extremely high degree of utility without addons. The fact that conversion can be done so easily potentially makes Genesis 8 LESS profitable for Daz, as a great many products for one will work for the other. Perhaps they do hope the new shiny will blind people to that, or they hope the converts will lead people to retrofit G8 products to G3 to keep pipe flowing, but whatever their aim here, the A pose is not a personal attack, or a means of creating difficulty for "the average Joe." The A pose is, effectively, the industry standard for 3D humans outside the world of Daz and Poser. It's far more logical to consider that, especially given Daz's other products that a meant to connect the Studio product ecology to Games and Animation, that the switch to A pose was designed to increase market share. Since people using Daze stff in those areas often have to rerig daz figures to have them work within the frame work of the game engines. This is not different from Genesis 3 abandoning Daz's pet Triax weight system for the more standard general weight map. Triax, as tech, is superior to basic weight mapping, but it takes more time to set up. A lot more. (Yes, I know it doesn't have to take more time, but if you don't, it is just a general weight map that takes up more space.) Being more complex, and being that Daz was pretty much the only vendor to implement it, Triax was of no use beyond the existing Daz/Poser world which made Daz prodcts harder to use in Games and Animation. G3 was designed to be easier for Games and Animation. Similarly, the change from morph expressions to bone controlled expressions. G8's new power pose face template and A pose are directly in line with changes from G2 to G3. G3 was more friendly to Games via lower poly count, General weights, and face bones. Beyond that, the two figures aren't very much different. G8 is more friendly to Games still via a more subdividion friendly mesh, (slightly) lower poly count, better access to the rigging, and industry conforming rest pose.
The fact that you don't need these things is irrelevant, because you dollars aren't going to keep Daz in business. Sooner or latter the bottom will drop out of the hobbist market. To continue to exist, Daz has to make it's products viable across as much to the 3D worl as possible.
It is almost sensible to view a corporate entity as parasitic. After all, they are designed in a way consistent with anti-social personality disorder. That said, they aren't all sociopathic, and you can often glean quite a bit about their motives from what they do. Daz, if it did not purse the wider market of 3D beyond posing stuff, would have no other option but roll out non-update figures as new shinies and hope to suck cash out of the unwary. If they had done this here, G8 would be no different from G3, except maybe the subd mesh, because that, alone make it harder to trans fer morphs. Instead, all of the changes to G8 suggest, strongly, that the figure is a bid to open or expand a new market.
4. Given what it seems clear that Daz is after, which is a whole new market segment, Daz can probably afford to risk losing you as customer. The thing of it is, on a long enough timeline, they can't afford to not risk it. The fact is, without expansion to new market segments, their endgame would be the same non-update release death spiral you already believe G8 to be.
5. None of this is meant to make you happy. Be as unhappy as you like with the new figure. The fact that an entity needs to do a thing to survive doesn't make that thing easier for everyone else. So by all means, be unhappy. This rebuttal is simply meant to point out that your interpretation of events is inconsitent with reality. It only holds up in a frame work where the only actors are Daz and people like yourself. I, my self, am not super impressed with Genesis 8 because so much of it is Genesis 3. But I can recognize the compelling business case behind, "G3 would be a lot more appealing to new markets if it worked like so." And I can understand that technical issues that would make retrofiting those specific things to G3 difficult, if not impossible. I can recognize enough of what makes these things work to have a fair idea of G8 would look like if it were what you believe it to be, and understand enough basic economics to know that it simply would not work the way you think it would. That, as G8 is right now, it represents a pretty big gamble on Daz's part, because so much of it can be retrofit to G3. Daz is trying to bury Victoria 4 (in part), not create a whole new version of that ecosystem by driving people to Genesis 3.
6. It probably wouldn't have been overly difficult to make a whole new mesh for Genesis 8, which would have totally killed backward compatability. More difficult, yes, but I could probably do it in a couple of weeks, all alone, and I don't have a day job doing this stuff. That would, perversely, be better evidence for your theory than mine. By completely ending all direct connection between G3 and G8 they really do make a new shiny with "hostage" type lock in. That they didn't suggest that that G3/G8's basic mesh is as nearly optimized as they can make it. They could have invented a new one, but it wouldn't provide any benefits. Which would make a compelling argument that they only did it to make life harder for the average Joe. The simple fact that they didn't suggests that making life harder for Joe was not, in fact, a priority. (I figure the complexity built into the Clone shapes and added clone data that allows G8 to interface with all of the Genesis line of wearables, if not perfectly, is at least 50% as much effort as making a new mesh. I could be over estimating that, I admit, they could have done it with a script. My thoughts of how they could fairly quickly have made a new mesh run in a similar direction, though, so I suspect it would even out. In short, they could have spent effort making things more difficult. Instead, they added tools to make things easier. They fact that it's not easy enough for you is irrelevant. Somebody was going to complain. I suppose you get to be somebody. In 2019, it'll be somebody else. If it isn't, that would be ironic.)
...but I would need to spend about 30$ just for the head/body morphs to make G8 even marginally useful (that's about 1/10th of what I have left after paying rent and bills). It would take a lot more to make her as useful as G3 currently is (which took quite a while as I had to save up to buy moph, shaping, and skin texture kits whenever I had a little extra money) as well as all the time invested in recreating and perfecting my characters.
G8 may very well be the next best thing to sliced bread, however this is as far as I go. Time to pull the cord and get off the bus to enjoy what I already have invested in (yeah, I still use G2 as well as "Genesis Classic").
Bugger, stupid spell check isn't working again (this has been hapening with more frequency as of late) so please excuse any typos.
...I'm working on a 4 year old system with a first generation i7 and use quite a few morph/shaping resource kits (except the HD ones as I only have 12 GB of system memory and render on the CPU). I notice little if any sluggishness in loading figures/characters.
Now a Genesis/G2/G3 loaded down with a bunch of legacy morphs/shapes through GenX, that is another matter entirely.
...there used to be a fellow here a few years back who still used Posette (who was supposedly "inferior" to Vicky 4) and did some really great work with her.
You wouldn't actually need to spend anything - there is a fantastic tutorial by Redz that teaches how to port over Genesis 3 morphs to Genesis 8. It's pretty easy and once you get the work flow down you can do quite a few morph transfers in a relitively short amount of time. :) You can also use G3F skins on G8F. And there is a free script to use G3F poses with G8F. You can also wear Geneis 1, G2F, G2M, G3F, and G3M clothes on Genesis 8.
Considering the improvements to the model, I'm really not seeing a down side to transfering to G8 unless the type of art you do isn't photo-realism. G8F is a step forward toward photo-realism but if you don't render for photorealism it's not woth the effort (for people who do mainly "toon" renders or NPR renders, I can see why they wouldn't want to switch).
In the end though, if you're happy with G3 and don't want to move to G8, then there's no need to. As they say "Do you, boo". lol :)
I picked up G8 and a few things for her but am otherwise shelving her for now -she hasn't nearly the product suport to make using her practical at this time. However, I did the same with G3 and now I am buying up g3 products as that library of support is decently stocked. Next year, I'll probably start moving towards g8. I am very concerned about how badly the library needs more for males, often returning barely a single page of results. I know some things sell better than others (though I can find innumerable examples of original to g3 male products that were so substandard no one should have expected them to sell) but if g8 is even sparser on male items, I may have to remain with g3 for practicality. Hopefully more and better products will arrive for M8 when he himself finally debuts. Otherwise, there is no reason for me to also take V8 and I'll stick with what is really a vast library of things I already own.
Why should I pay for V8/GF8 now, when past sales, freebies, have shown that as the build up to G9 begins, there is a strong possibility that I can get most if not all G8 characters at a seriously discounted price or possibly even FREE?
I can understand that if one is a professional there is a certain necessity that is driven by the market to stay current with the tech. But if youre a hobbiest, like myself, why bother? Honestly, I can say that I have more important things to spend my money on. Not to mention, less and less time to play with all of the stuff I have now.
I bought the head and body morphs just to see what base G8 was capable of and I thought it was cool. I wasnt blown away though. The expressions probably impressed me the most but I dont do alot of close-ups. The ability to transfer morphs was cool, too bad you cant transfer HD. There is something about the way G8 bends that reminds me of the original genesis that I dont like, thats why I used V4. I do like that you can use legacy genesis skins. New and improved autofit? Laughable! More shrink wrap that ensures that ill have to buy yet another generation of zev0's morphs (probably still will, but only at a steep discount).
So im just going to focus on the old wishlist. Plenty to be had in there. I like G3,G2,G,V4,V3... quite alot so its not like im going to run out of assets to work with. But this whole rinse and repeat with a new generation of characters every two years has become tiresome and expensive.
It will be nice, of course, to see everyones G8 renders.
...well for one I have very few skins for G3 and didn't really work much with the figure until Zev0 released SBP3 (yes I know there is an update for G8 in the works) as I was disappointed in the lack of backwards compatibility with older skin maps due to the mapping change. True, there were 3rd party "fixes" but even they were not totally foolproof so one still had to "clean up" seams, imperfections, & such in post (and I am horrible at digital painting due to the fact I do not have a steady hand anymore). I also use mostly G2 Poses through Zev0's G2 - G3 Pose Converter.
To create the characters I currently have will require (as I mentioned) more than just the base G3 body/head morphs. It will mean having to purchase all the morph resoruce kits I have all over again as well shaping utilitites like Breast/Glute Control, NPMs, and Growing Up along with whatever basic Teen 8 figure comes down the line (the latter for my younger characters).
As the creator of GenX is no longer with us, we will probably not see another update. I find this to be an indespensible tool as well.
The bottom line is I'm on Social Security which is my only source of income. My rent alone takes up 2/3 of my monthy benefit (and that is considered "low income" housing here). I am also trying to save up for upgrades to my current system (memory and W7 Pro, and hopefully someday, a high VRAM GPU like a 1080 Ti so I can finally get out of the "slow rendering lane").
I would say I have to be "content" with G3 as it is plain ol' economics that forces me to draw the line somewhere. I feel fortunate to be able to pick up a few PC+ items, Daz O's when on sale, and items on Fastgrab now and then (the freebies, special deals, and coupons alone more than make the quarterly membership well worth the price).
I don't dislike G8 and actually am rather pleased that Daz has moved away from the "fashion model" look for their females to a figure that is more "everyday" in appearance. Just that I cannot afford to keep up anymore.
(Apologies for all the edits to correct typos, but this spell check they have here seems totally borked tonight. It indicates it is working after I click on it, but it is catching nothing, yet every time I save the latest correction, I notice there is another mistake and need to go back in to make another fix - a pain when you are dyslexic)
Maybe, haven't tried SSDs yet, have never really liked them because they have a limited amount of writes which to me indicates a questionable technology (they're based on a sort of chemical process and such processes tend to become unstable which is the reason for the wear). If a sector breaks down can you be sure all data are being reallocated safely? Same problem with HDDs of course, but at least only a small percentage of them are getting bad sectors, and it's not because of too many writes.
Still too expensive with the huge amount of content I have anyway. I've also heard that they get slower the more you fill them up, whether that has been solved with the latest technologies I don't know.
G3 expressions are horrible. G8 expressions are the improvement I was hoping for. G8 has surpirior JCMs over G3. The A default stance makes shoulders look more natural. My good reasons to switch to G8 and no waste of money at all.
I still find this amusing, because the base expressions are exactly the same for both.
But I figure no one's really looking beyond the HD expressions which are really much better, after the shock wears off.
I don't see any technological improvements in G8. Actually, all of it was here since G2 if not G1 (I don't remember when DQ were first introduced). Moreover, I'm seeing this running in circles as degradation.
Contrary to you I wasn't just 'mentioned' the pitfalls of G3. I actively modified the figure using both payed addons and my own work. So with new G8 base I didn't get any improvements compared to what I have but actually I see that many of old pitfalls were not addressed. That's degradation too.
Will somebody finally name at least one damn thing that cannot be built into G3?
For example: I can tell what could not be ported back from G3 to G2(1): new mesh design principles, new skeleton structure. What about G8?
These are wild speculations.
What's that 'something'? Can you tell me? Everything what G8 is laying in front of you: .dsf files are plain text, textures are images. So just point me where is that 'something'?
When you feel someone else's hand diving deep into your wallet it's hard to not consider it personal :)
I've skipped the futher nonsense. Right now DAZ is selling Zev0's 'Shape shift' the third time in a row, now for G8. And I'm certain that majority of users will buy it because 'why bother'. That's the reason for G8 to exist and that's how it works. If it'd not make money we'd not see it.
Contrary to your logic my is based on facts, not speculations. What did we see when G8 was out? Dozens of 'poses' products. What was inside? The same poses we already seen for G3, G2 etc. Did people who bought there products bother about 'free pose converter' script or SY tutorias? No, they just bought them straight to have 3td of 4th 'crouching Vicky' pose in their libraries. That's reality.
Actually I don't care if average Joe want to buy more of the same products. It's his money, after all. The problem is in month or two all female thingies will be for G8 exclusively so I'll have to convert them to G3 wasting my time (and time is the only thing that I have in my life) or switch to G8 and still waste time and money.
And the same fate eventually awaits G3M stuff too.
TriAx is not superior. DAZ understood it themselves, that's why the promised plugins for Maya, MAX etc never seen light of the day. What sold G3 for me were:
1. new mesh design, no more weird 'long' quads like in all previous DAZ figures
2. facial rigging
3. use of spline-driven JCMs for corrections
For that I was keen to spend some money for required addons and some time to transfer and redesing of my characters. I even tolerated antique skeleton structure and dumb choice of dual quaternions for skinning (not for too long, thou :) ).
You're wrong, it's still hard for this. DAZ itself (as Morph3d) still uses G2 tech for Unity, promised UE4 plugin is silently forgotten. To use G3 mesh in games I had to make my own figure around it.
Ha-ha, encrypted so nobody could port it back to G3 :) I've made it for my characters using the hack suggested by Richard but I cannot redistribute it because it's DAZ material.
I'm making games and CG movies. You simply don't know what you're talking about.
And that's the proof of my words. You don't know what it takes to make decent base mesh for human figure.
Please everyone, remember to address your comments to the topic, not at other posters.
One thing?
Just one thing?
So all it takes it one thing and you'll agree? Okay. One thing. That A Pose. Because porting that back to G3 would make G3 effectively G8 with respect to all of the clothing and shoes and poses made for G3. Adding the A pose to G3 breaks the skeleton model that all of the G3 stuff relies on.
One of your own key complaints is the autofit is not perfect, and the only way to connect this hypothetical G3 will of G8's features back to the existing G3 library of products would be autofit. Which is not perfect. Port the A pose and suddenly G3 has no clothes.
But hey, I'll give you two things that can't be ported back. Improved, reduced poly subd mesh. First of all, because different mesh. Nothing in the authoring tool will allow you replace a geometry with a different on that has a different vertex order. But hey, it's thier program, so lets pretend they can hack around that, somehow. Great! Now all the geografts are bsted, because the vertex order has changed. V order is not something they can hack around. It needs to be stable on export, and forcing the G8 mesh to adopt g3's vertex order to preserve compatablity with little things like morphs (which will all break badly if you don't hack around), will break the ability to export the mesh to create new morphs. SInce Daz's business model relies on independent contractor artists doing just that, you aren't simply positing a figure upgrade, you are assuming a whole new file interchange function and supporting model. A new extension of the Studio API, just so one can claim this new figure is still Genesis 3.
No doubt you will respond that you don't care about those features. Again, Daz doesn't care what you care about.
Beyond those one things, you make even less sense. I'm expecting the next complaint is going to be about shoes, which makes exactly zero sense. Because G8 shoes, you would have to buy anyway. And G3 shoes can go on G3. Since G3 can look like G8, excepting the HD morphs and shoulder bending, and vice versa, you don't need to have the shoes on the other figure. Use the Match pose scripts on share CG and just hide the figure actually wearing the shoe and set any smooting mods to collide with the other figure. Shoes solved.
I'd think a 3D pro like you would have seen that.
I figure a master of mesh topoplogy like you would have figure out that you can transfer any shaping or untility morphs from g3 to g8. I figured it the day G8 was launched. I have flex helper on G8 that was made for Victoria 4. (I like it. I had it on G3. It was the very first thing I transfered, before I figureout how to do mass transfers. I transfered 500 morphs at once to G8 just be sure it would work. It does, but it's really bad idea to do it that way. Better to do it one product at a time. If one product happens to be 500 morphs, it's all good. It more a problem of folder integrity and having a sensible parameters pane at the end than it is the volume in a single transfer.) This can't be an issue for a 3D pro who knows it all. Because I am not a pro and I solved it in 2 days in my limited spare time. And I did most of the solving in a few hours on launch day, while I was doing something else.
I'll cop to being a clever guy, but I'm not that clever. I'm not an titan of 3D, like you. I'm just a guy who noticed the meshes were the same as soon as I loaded the model and considered the implications of that. Since you know so much about 3D, being a pro, and I know nothing because you said so, you should have this figured out, right?
But it's the heart of your gripe. You don't have it figured out. My guess is you can't. Which is fine. You just have to rely on the generosity of others to point the way. Just like me and everyone else when we walk into things we don't know. But knowing what I know, I do know that it would be a matter optimizing a mesh, making a clone for another Daz figure and transfering the helper morphs in studio's authoring tools to make a new figure. That's really all it would take. And yes, I could do that in a couple of weeks, and have a pretty decent figure. Maybe not Pro, but the point is, if I could (and I could) have a basic working figure built with Genesis DNA in weeks, imagine what Daz could do with 2 years since, unlike hypothetical me, they would be violating no licence agreements. They own Genesis. Canabalizing the Genesis line to make the next Genesis is what they do.
You think this would be hard for them and you can't solve the issue of transfering utility morphs. I just explained how it would be easy them, and I can transfer any morph I chose from G3 to G8. I don't think I'm right about all the things, but I still think it's safe to say Daz really doesn't care what you do with your money, and all you have to do to win your private litte war is keep you wallet closed.
I suspect we're done here. You can't see your argument is absurd. My guess is you don't want to know how to solve your complaints, and if a free product to transfer between G3 and G8, both ways was handed to you, you'd throw it in the givers face. Because you're just mad. And robbed of a justification for being mad, you'll either get more angry, or you'll pretend you didn't hear it. I'm basing this off your behavior this far.
There are plenty of valid reasons not like any product. Perfection is impossible, so nothing will measure up for all the people. But the bottom line here remains that No amount of new figure launches can give Daz the power to make you spend money, and all you have to do is wait, and you can have all the bells you have on G3 on G8 for one product price or even free. So the idea that Daz wants your money being a reason to be upset with them is odd, to say they least. I mean, your money is how they can afford to give G8 away free. Sure, it's a ploy to get more of your money, but without already having your money, they couldn't have paid to make G8. And all this time, like Dorothy in Oz, the power to stop Daz taking your money has been in you all along. You can buy your morphs from Renderosity, after all.
I mean, I could understand if you thought G3 was not improved on enough. That's sufficient reason. But this added claim that Daz is trying to rob you, personally, is bizarre. Just weird. All you gotta do is not buy. Just like me. That is, I've reached the end of logic, and I'm not buying from you any more. Not coming back. Do the same, Don't buy Daz stuff. That's the end of it. You win. If you do buy, you've no one blame but you. Especially given what you believe they are up to. Again, Rendo exists. You have a choice.
I noticed this! Or, well... while I love the HD expressions and I want that add-on someday when it's really discounted... I've found that commercial G3 expressions are, yes, bad, but also that I can make better ones on my own by ignoring the 'expressions' tab under pose and sticking with actual facial movement dials. It's why I'd like the PowerPose templates to be released for G3.
Honestly, if the base model had come with those three add-on morph packs I would be doing a lot more with g8. I know it's popular to say, "You don't have to spend a penny!" but the HD expression set, at least, seems like the entire reason to bother spending the time (instead of money) figuring out that morph transfer process so kindly documented by Redz and Singular Blues.
Load G3F, rotate her hands down 45 degrees and legs 6 degrees apart, shift hip down and fit feet to ground. G3 in A pose, skeleton intact, I'm happy :) I export all my characters for games in A pose since G1 era.
It's not complaint, it's fact. It's proven by existence of a pile of products that 'correct' this or that of autofit results. Anybody can see these imperfections by their own eyes in Studio. And that's what bring butter on the bread for PAs or everybody could make clothes easily :) (but nowadays more and more PAs begin to rely on smoothing modifier and do not bother with JCMs for clothes, which is another sign of degradation, BTW).
Cannot get what you're saying. There is no 'hypothetical' G3, there is real G3 and it already has clothes. G8 clothes may be used on G3 but it will require manual work to make them fit perfectly. Imperfect fit is not an option when you're doing movies, because they usually show the subject from different POVs, in some cases even at the same time, like when we see reflection in the mirror.
So A pose is indeed the easies thing for G3 - it's just a very basic pose :)
Load G3, switch to Geometry editor, select eyelashes, tear and nails by material, hide then remove hidden. Voila, you basically have you 'improved, reduced subd mesh' of G8. (Actually you should model new nails and then define them as geografts for corresponding areas of fingers). Eyes are even easier, just hide original and put there whatever model you want. I'm doing that to my cyborgs all the time.
I responded by how these features might be easily reproduced with G3 for those who really need them. I frequently need A pose and have no problems with it for G3 and I often remove tears and cornea when exporting to game engine.
No I have not.
That's what I'm constantly talking about - I'll have to spend time first to setup the scene, then to apply additional rigging, then on rendering because the scene will be interpreted slower. Just to be able to use G8. Time is money, who will pay for that?
Again, why should I spend my time doing this? What shall I have improved compared to my current state of things? DAZ 3D just offered me extra discount on new 'Shape Shift' for G8. Maybe I should buy it instead of wasting my time with transfer utility, maybe it will cost me less in the end?
I'm not mad, I'm MAD :)
Obviously I'm voting with my wallet and believe me DAZ hear that - I've never got as much offers and discounts for any generation as I already had for G8 and her stuff. If at some point in time there will be real benefits from move to G8, I'll move. Currently I do not see any.
Or I'll switch completely to my own figures. Ot to V4/M4. Who knows, after all, I'm madman. And yes, I've won.
Since civil discussion is apparently too much to ask the thread has been locked.