Definitely not convinced on Genesis 8 yet.
vrba79
Posts: 1,483
in The Commons
Same reason it took me so long to head towards G3. Lack of parity. There's no male counterpart yet for G8. Heck there's still no male counterpart for many of G3's female characters.
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Kenji has replaced Hiro as Aiko's counterpart.
Laurie
Amd even with the original Genesis figure, Michael 5 didn't come out for several months after the release of Victoria 5, so it's not really significantly different.
At least it's not 2 years later, like Michael 4 was.
Kenji, huh? I wonder why the name change.
There wasn't either a Hiro 6 or a Kenji 6 so Kenji 7 just showed up for 1 generation. I hope they go back to Hiro 8 and bring back David too.. I'm also holding my wallet until the Genesis 8 Male appears. Not interested in another cascade of female products and why buy G3M when G8M is on the way and the G3M products will discount soon enough.
It all goes back to Genesis 1 Aiko 5, Hitomi and Hiro 5 debacle. Hitomi was a new anime girl made by ML, he also made a male counterpart for her. DAZ made ML an offer he couldn't refuse for the male figure and they relased it as Hiro 5. The problem was Aiko 5 had a less anime/manga appearance than either Hitomi or Hiro 5 so Hiro 5 wasn't seen as a proper counterpart to Aiko 5 and didn't sell well. DAZ used the poor sales to justify why there was no Hiro 6 and there wouldn't be any future Hiros. DAZ wouldn't swallow there pride and admit they made a mistake when they did make a Hiro 7 they instead just gave him a new name.
The low sales go back to past that. Hiro has always sold poorly as did David.
The same characters cannot look better or worse - the must look the same. If they don't then artist is doing something wrong, intentionally or not.
They might mean the bends and the improved muscle follow with poses as well as expressions - those are things that have been improved since G3. :)
I spoke about characters as they're sold at DAZ: base morph+HD details+custom JCMs+materials in default pose and neutral expression. In this state the same characters from the same author for G3 and G8 must look the same.
And I'm always saying that if you want better bends, muscles and HD expressions you can find solutions in this very store that will be much more versatile and at the same time easier to your wallet than G8/V8 :)
1) Looking at the store here are very few characters sold as V7/V8. Those are at other stores. Also those products aren't using HD, as that doesn't easily transfer.
2) There were no HD expressions product for V7. None. Those only used facial bones, so G8/V8 would be the improvement. Same with builtin flexions for bends. I think my products from G2 on was one of the few that consistently added JCMs for some flexes and bends (aa they were custom zbrush body shapes), otherwise you had to pay for a separate bending product, which was maybe 3 or 4.
That is so bizarre, one buys a professional DAZ Originals model to pose and render and yet one is told that the model doesn't work, that one must buy separate 'bend products' so that the product will work. What?
For me, Gen 8 only question is: What for? The few things it SEEMS add aren't worth and, worse, aren't there. The Gen 8 is way too young for me and there are so much I can do with previous Gen that I simply CANT/WONT do in gen 8.
So, my strategy for now:
- take all I need in previous GEN, at (super) cheap price. (gen 2 & genesis)
- wait big sales on gen 7
render.
With this, I can pretty much do all what I need. By the time I'm complete, Gen 8 will be more mature and lot cheaper.
If artist made character for G8 (using HD or not) I don't see anything that would prevent him from doing the same for G3 especially taking into consideration the similarities in meshes. (aside from laziness and commercial considerations of course :) )
Looky-looky: https://www.daz3d.com/xtreme-expressions-hd-for-genesis-3-female
https://www.daz3d.com/musculature-hd-morphs-for-genesis-3-bundle - much better than stock "muscles" in G8. And those in G8 are not HD, at all :)
Nothing personal - just business: https://www.daz3d.com/easy-flex-muscularity-morphs-and-merchant-resource :) And I wholeheartedly believe here will be HD version in the future too :)
For me G3 is the best trade off between accuracy and simplicity (when is comes to the base mesh) on the market. G8 is G3 in different default pose, no more.
And yes, sales on G3 stuff will come very handy :)
A couple of things come to mind:
A) They have no further interest in making G3F characters.
B) The product you mentioned is for the base figure, not V7 specifically.
C) Not everyone wants to buy products to add something that happens naturally when a human bends a joint.
Ok ONE HD expression product, still not a bunch. (let's not even discuss the G3M) Every G8 has them, even the base. Transfer the g3 morph over and your converted G8 has them. For free even.
I also don't understand the logic with "this product i bought for G8 gives musculature and G8 doesn't have them by default." A better comparison is the base G3 doens't have body flexes, but the base G8 does, and the only cost was the download. From there you can use the same skins and with some work, the head morphs.
That's not to say that there is a radical difference between G8 and G3, but there are improvements that G3 didn't have that you definitely had to pay for. Some of the content development behind the scenes definitely got better with G8.
I was skeptical as well, but the vast improvement in facial expressions sold me. However, I don't have any desire to spend a ton more money on new stuff. Well, it turns out, I don't have to. Skins for G3F transfer pretty much perfectly. There is thread that explains exactly how to transfer G3F morphs to G38 AND includes the free clone that you need to do it. I have converted 118 G3F characters to G8F in about 6 hours. They look exactly the same on G8F as they do as the original character. Cost to me? $0 in money and about 6 hours of my time. Hair and clothing are interchangeable for the most part and its not very hard to save them in a way that saves all of the movement morphs etc in the clothing. Another free tutorial for that by Sickleyield I believe. The only thing I invested money wise was the extra morphs, but that was a drop in the bucket for what I've spent on previous generations. And, with the purchase of a small number of utilities I can now move every generation from V4 up, to the G8F base, and will be able to take advantage of the much more realistic expressions etc. that the G8F provides. Again, since I can move all of the clothing and hair from V4 on up as well, I really only needed to make a small investment in some basics and some utilities and I could go the rest of my life without spending a dime on new content for G8F. Doesn't mean I won't, but I don't HAVE to.
I'm not working well with G8 at all. I've been working on a character since the release of G8F, and she still looks like a man (broad shoulders, square hips, and a manly-shaped face).
I did use V8 in a render, but my computer is having a really difficult time in producing the initial image (that gets refined). It can be anywhere from 10-20 mins before the initial image is produced.
I'm sticking with G2, although there are some nice outfits out there for G8F. It's a pity that G8F clothing can't be used on G2F, but I'm not sure if I'm the only person who feels that way (I probably am :P)
He-he, I have 3 of them (not ONE) and I'm not desperate buyer as you can see :) These 3 products provide me with everything I need in regards to HD expressions. Why should I diminish the range by switching to new empty base? And then spend more for the same stuff?
What do you mean by 'G3 doesn't have body flexes'? It has JCMs just like G8. In the legs/pelvis area the bends are the same, shoulders changed but it can be done for G3 too. Neigther G3 nor G8 has HD bends, flexes of JCMs. G8 has some muscle flexes (all low res) and some of them (like bicep) are set up wrong.
Why not compare bases? Because after two years I have not a base but the system I have invested both my money and my time into. If someone wants me to scrap it and start to invest more he should convince me that move worths it. Now I see no benefits in new base compared to what I already have.
Next, for new user it also might be cheaper to get some addons to G3 at lower prices and build the same or more advanced figure than G8 is now. Because he inevitably will have to buy full-priced addons for G8 too to make her bends decent (see the new muscularity product as proof, and there will be more).
If they'd want to aid content development it would be better to upgrage Transfer utility to work from any pose (like it was AFAIR, for TriAx), not only default.
I've heard from a friend who worked with it that the morph transfer process leaves the eyes looking pretty wrong. I haven't tried it myself yet. Not having picked up any of the add-on DO morph/expression packages, it's really hard to even justify using g8. And I still haven't been convinced that clothing will work as well, since my experience with using G2 garb on G3 without translation addons was dismal and even with those I still can't use the sit-pose dials that come on most skirts.
How about 'shape shift', 'aging morphs', 'kid morphs', 'natural bends for...' (legs, arms, torso etc) etc etc ?
I haven't seen any issues with eyes on my transfers.... I can't speak for all the clothing as I haven't had time to really work at it but most of my transfers of other generations moving up (v4 to G2f, G2f to G3f, work pretty well.
You missed the word 'financial' before 'interest' :)
So what? V7 is just the morph.
Bad news: G8 doen't do it naturally too :), so addons imminent.
1) G3 doesn't have jcms for body flexes as a default. It has them for bends. G8 has jcms for bends and flexes.
2) That's not how the transfer utility works. It projects from similar items best. Even then smaller and hidden polys will have issues, but with the eyelashes removed, that's fixed a lot of issues in transfer and morph creation.
3) Again you're trying to convince me that the 3 products you bought for expression is better than the default built-in for G8 that every single character benefits from, including transferred ones? I'm still not convinced that a valid comparison.
The bottom line becomes "is a figure going to please everyone?" and the answer is no.
Are you going to convince vendors to stay at G3? Has it worked for **any** previous generation? No it hasn't.
That's what I'm talking about :)
Go over to the Morphs for G3 to G8 thread and look for any post by Singular Blues. In his/(her?) signature, you'll see two links to Redz tutorials. Click on and download the Redz Tutorial for Adding Clones to G8. He uses G2F as his example, and walks you through making a G2F clone for G8F and a G8F clone for G2F. Once you have the G8F clone saved, per his instructions, G8F will show up in your auto-fit dialog, allowing you to auto-fit G8F clothing to G2F... as with all auto-fit, some things will work much better than others. But it's something. And it's free. You can test it on some of the free clothing items for G8F popping up at sites like Rendo, ShareCG, and Wilmap.
To clarify, the instructions walk you through creating the clones you need. It's my understanding they couldn't just give us the clone... something about DAZ and IP, (intellectual property.)
I'll bet some of those are DAZ "7" base figures, like Victoria 7. Their materials won't work on G8F directly, but you can convert them via the Map Transfer utility. For anyone who needs help with that, I've put together a tutorial. I'm still adding images and such, but the instructions are all there: From Map Transfer to Material Presets.
Yes, "my hero," Sickleyield: Convert Clothing G3 to G8, G8 to G3.
The eyes can do really weird things with the extreme, toon or stylized, shapes, but for more realistic shapes there shouldn't be much issue. Using the Development figure to import the morphs, I've noticed what looks to be the inner eye mesh intersecting with the outer mesh, around the edges. But that outer mesh is the EyeMoisture, so it shouldn't be noticable. And if it is, you can always, set both Refraction Weight and Cutout Opacity to zero and hide it altogether, (in Iray. I assume you can do something similar in 3Delight.)