ANIMATING THE GENESIS 8 FEMALE?? ... WHY BOTHER??
wolf359
Posts: 3,931
Hi
As I prefer to speak from Actual experience when discussing
matters regarding character animation, I decided to install the free
Genesis8 female start bundle to examine the figure for myself.
First I dont have DS 4.9.4x installed
I remain on 4.8
The figure will load in DS 4.8 with a version warning
so I immediately tried her canned,included poses
and they worked perfectly.
This assured me that her DS version mismatch would,at a minimum,
not affect basic body limb positions.
I Know that my fellow animators Brian Steagel and 3Digit
have successfully tested the figure in Autodesk Motionbuilder and Iclone Pro
respectively, so I decided to restrict my examination Daz studio internal
for those who only have access to Daz Studio,aniMate GraphMate& keymate
and the two main motion retargeting scripts.
FIRST : The animated pose converter from G2 to G3 by the late PA "DraagonStorm"
Result, complete fail, will only run if it detects a G2 female and G3 female loaded in the scene.
SECOND: The Free animation retargeting script by zaz777
Result,Complete fail ,as it requires a G3 figure to be loaded as well.
THIRD: Previously saved G3F aniblocks or animated pose files
Result,partial "success" but G8 Arms are folded into the torso due to the default
being an "A" pose instead of the usual "T" pose
and thighs are forced too close together due to wider "A" pose foot stance
this appears to result in some jerkyness in the leg motion not seen inthe original
G3 version used on G3
SOLUTION :One Must own the graphMate plugin and marquee select the arms and Move ALL
of the keys up or down until the arms resurface from the torso.
The same must be done with the "side to side " parameter of the thighs.
Or one can optionally manually animate every motion you create for Genesis 8
CONCLUSIONS: From a workflow efficiency perspective
the new G8 Does NOT represent an improvement over Genesis 3
and is certainly not backwards compatible with animation Data from G2 or previous.
And for those with access to Daz studio tools only,G8 involves even one more layer
of manual correction( with graphMate) after you have retargeted from G2 ,V4 to G3 and saved DS native
motion Data to apply to G8.
Therefore I find ZERO Advantage for Daz studio animators
to use Genesis 8 For Character Animation.
(G8 Pictured with Custom dynamic Cloth robe)
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Comments
i'se suspecting backwards compat only refers to autofit clothes,hair
havent checked her uv templates yet? if she can wear vick4 skins, would be awesome.
would be awesomer if the future michael 8 could wear m4 skins.
Skins& UV's are less important to me as I
Do sci fi based renders & animations
I dont do nudie /semi-nudie close up, pin up girls and obsess over
"photorealism" which is IMPOSSIBLE in a program that still
uses late 1990's "Kozboro"technology hair peices.
DAZ 3D workers have stated that the animation retargeting will be fixed for both G3F/G3M and G8F/G8M (when G8M comes around).
How much they improve theanimation past that is anybody's guess though.
There is a script made by the OP of this thread
https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/176126/g3f-pose-to-g8f-correction-fix-adjust-script#latest
that corrects the Genesis 3 poses for use on Genesis 8 Female.
well, the g8f starter essentials only comes with 1 base uvs
Thanks however the only thing I have read in the forums is Daz claiming
to be "fixing" is the broken BVH import of G3 Data into studio.
Great!! but this only helps those us who have access to external
professional motion creation tools Like Iclone or Autodesk Motionbuilder
and desire to import Motion data back to Daz studio.
Lovely..Bloody good for us!!
But what about those who can only afford Daz studio and perhaps Keymate
aniMate an GraphMate??
"Gofigure" is MIA
So animating G8 in DS alone leaves one with the options
I have already listed.
Ths is becoming like going to a fine dining establishment
and ordering one full perfectly edible plate of food... and two empty plates.
Now imagine taking your utensils and forking all of the food
over to the second empty plate.
repeat process transferring the same food to the third empty plate
and clean up the bits that fell to the side during the transfer.
Does this sound rational to anyone??
when you could just eat from the first plate(ie Genesis 2 M/F).
i luv my Genesis 2 M/F but no face rigging.
You do not need face bones for facial expression or lipsync animation
Amen to the need for better animation capabilities in Daz. No disrespect to their creators, but even with Graphmate/Keymate I find animating in Daz excruciating. This is a real shame, since the Daz figures are so great, and keep getting better. I've never been able to progress beyond V4/M4, since I have never gotten DSON to work, and V4/M4 are the last figures I can get to work in Poser--whose figures still are can't hold a candle to Daz figures--but whose animation capababilities are far better. And it's not exactly like the animation interface in Poser is all that complex: it's just simple, and it works, with no plugins. And let's not even mention that Mimic has never been updated--I am still using the version from over a decade ago! So, please, Daz, instead of Genesis 9, give us some real animation capability!
--Tim
Daz figures, custom mocap, Mimic mouth movements, Poser animation, rendered in Cinema 4D:
Hi Tim there is a new 64 bit version mimic
https://www.daz3d.com/mimic-live
I am using it in my current project
it appears to only work with Genesis 2 or earlier
but I only use genesis 2 anyway as it is superior for animation
because it accepts my BVH Data from Iclone Pro.
Genesis 3& 8 does not accept imported BVH Data from any source.
Thank you wolf for your review. I have been playing with v8 too. and found other issues .
first I have issues with hand grasping when I hand keyframe the fingers hands, which seem to reset back to default, if I also use a poser mocap walk cycle ani-blocks at the same time, then custom hand movements are lost back to the default aniblocks location , which I never had that issue with genesis 2 because I edit the hand grap's all the time and to make sure it was not the g2 aniblock I tested it using genesis3 aniblocks( which I never use, they just came in the set i bought) just to make sure it was not the aniblock causing i.
the second issue I found using the is the Genesis 3 poser mocap walk cycle aniblock preset for v8 a amusing if nothing else.(a funny gate or walk) but not what I had hoped for when daz said best backwards compatibility figure,
So i can not accept it in my work flow at this time . I just don't have that kind of patients going back correcting things ( maybe for still art folks V8 is the best backwards compatible figure yet. ) So. I'll hold off on my final judgment and see what kind of tools are developed for animation in the future before i invest in v8. But so far I see nothing to make me excited .I'm like you wolf. photo real is not what I am looking for in my animation. mostly because with my limited animations skills its not achievable.
Of course these issues I have been having maybe on my end too, because I have not updated to 4.9.4. I am still on 4.9.3.166 and really at this point I have no intentions of upgrading until i see something worth all the work that is involved.. the last time I upgraded it took me a months to fix the things the upgrade broke within my work flow. So all I will say is so far I'm very disappointed at what I have been able to do when testing v8 in animations with what I have for Daz animations tools .
I should mention that for the record all I use for animation software is Daz Studio and Adobe premiere pro cs5 for film editing to make animations with. that is it . I have no other pipeline into other software for father editing to worry about.. .But like I said V8 is new and I will keep a wait and see attitude to see if anything comes out to help with the animation work flow.. anyway that is just my 2 cents worth.
Well as part of that I am thinking they will also fix all those aniblocks which are quite extensive, quite good, but need two versions and both versions need be included with the original products.
It's been stated things are coming to DAZ in the 2nd half of the year that will address some long standing complaints - and I've read enough in the forums to know those are:
1) animation in DAZ
2) hair in DAZ
3) dynamics - at the very least hair & clothing dynamics
Of course I am guessing so well...at any rate I am tired of doing still renders with DAZ and am moving on to Blender. I am confident by the time I finish the Blender sets of tutorials DAZ will have some big improvement to help me make fun animations and still scenes that don't look naturally dynamically composed.
Hi Ivy, Good to hear from you.
Yeah G8 ....more of the same plus a few more
impediments.
I remember you saying that if the next figure after G3 will accept
all of G3 Motion data options you might invest in both figures
and build from there.
well we have our answer ..most of the scripts that we used to
target motion to G3 do not work with G8 without manual fixing
likely due to the new "A pose Default so its a pass for me.
Staying with G2 M/F
An "aniblock" is a baked motion clip container .
I dont think they can "fix"an aniblock to work with G3/8
because that container has no references to the extra bones
in G3/8.
Daz also cannot update the aniMate 2 plugin fo G3 compatibility
due to it being licensed"as is"
Daz has stated publicly that "GOfigure" would have to
update the aniMate plugin.
Hi Wolf, I'll keep a open mind and will wait a bit to see what is developed before i say I won't invest in v8 at all. she just came out this week. I want to see what new changes are coming with daz Studio this summer and see what tools for animation will be developed. before I make any dramatic changes to how I'm working with daz now. The big thing is I was very excited at the androgynous look that v8 has. I was like wow female warrior out of the box... it has a lot of potential for some great character creations if we can get her to work for animation .So I am really hoping daz gives us animator people something new to work with to make thing work easier.. Also last night i was trying lipsync with v8 & I noticed that v8 does not work is there no dmc lipsnyc data for v8? If not I hope someone makes some DMC data for her so we can use lipsync if they don't have it out already. other wise that is going to make v8 talking all the much harder too,. or maybe Daz wants her as the tall, deadly silent mute type..lol
Everything on a computer is static until computer programs alter it so well the bigger problem then is GoFigure is apparently content and capable of earning a living off new sales of old content or the income the derived from the sales of their items on the DAZ Store was never sufficient to warrent the amount of work they did in creating the original works.
At any rate, most of the aniblocks can by recreated with a mocap system. I guess I should research which are affordable for someone like my. AuroraTrek posted an excellant StarTrek fan animation using mocap.
This is what I was afraid of. I too was hoping that G8 will be easier to animate than G3. But seeing as how it still has separate bend and twist bones for the arms and legs, as well as the new A-pose, it doesn't seem like this is the case.
Perhaps there is not a big enough demand for animation yet. I'm not sure.
But at least we can still hope for scripts and other future products from smart people to aid in this (especially BVH retargeting/conversion to G8).
-P
You sir are a highly sucessful PA, Dont you have some pull with the CEO?
Thanks for the heads up on Mimic Live, Wolf, but unfortunately (as I understand it) it doesn't work with prerecorded dialog, and all of my dialog is recorded and edited extensively before I bring it into Mimic 3.
As for demand for animation, PA, perhaps it's a bit of chicken-and-egg--it's possible that if Daz came out with decent animation capabilities, that would create interest by demonstrating that it was possible.
And thanks, Nonesuch! I have my own mocap setup from Optitrack, which does a pretty good job, and it keeps getting better.
Hi Tim my audio is heavily edited as well
as I am using the Morphvox pro suite to radically morph
my own voice for the various characters male& female
indeed if you have the mimic 3 pro app you still have the best
stand alone solution for editing your lipsinc for daz figures
I still use my mimic3 pro as well since it supports the genesis 2 figures
that I use exclusively.
Just FYI it is possible to use pre recorded Audio with mimic live
https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/115371/for-my-fellow-animators-using-mimic-live#latest ;
I tried baking an A pose in G2F to run the script with no success but rotating the arms of genesis up 45.5 degrees and legs in 6 degrees in 3DXchange in the retargetting room gives me a BVH that loads onto G2F that should after conversion to G3F work correctly on Genesis 8
I shall keep you posted after the conversion.
The reason I dumped poser for Iclone, completely
(other than the old Mil 4 or useless native figures),
is the broken IK system and no ability to Mix motion
from different sources.
this animation was made from four different sources
and DS automaticly reorients the feet to the beginning of the next motion source.
It is posssible to do this manually in poser by moving all of the hip frames
to line up with each BVH but I dont recommend trying it
Poser cannot toggle of & on it IK without ruining
the entire animation
even in the latest versions.
At least these feature are present in Daz studio without pulgins
with free base AniMate2 plugin and the Ik pins that at least can toggle of/on.
Also if you do invest in Graphmate you get auto clamping
that prevents spline graph over shoot.
as opposed to poser where I had to judiciously place spline breaks
or holder frames to prevent spline over shoot.
Finally "Mcasual" has mutiple free scripts that extends
Daz studio's animation toolset.
Such as this key reducer to thin out Mocap keyframe data
to make it realisticly managable for further editing.
So from an initial cost/ benefit perspective.
Daz Studio is the better value before one even begins investing
in human Mocap systems or external motion creation suites like IclonePro
or Motion builder.
I had attempted to work with animate2 quite some time back but had so many issues I gave up. I went to GoFigure's forums to try to get some answers to questions (which didn't help) and at the time were asking for feedback on their software, so I gave some suggestions and reasoning behind the suggestion. They blew it all off and basically told me that their software was perfect and I just needed to learn to use it.
Hopefully Daz will either find someone else to make an animation plugin or do it themselves
Out of pure curiosity, what problems were you having with the
aniMate 2 motion clip system??
I actually can't remember it's been such a long time. But I've had problems with tweening where it shouldn't have on the timeframe, Things changing Y value in the middle of an animation (and when I would fix it, it would change elsewhere when I added more frames), Re-opening a saved animation would suddenly add a whole lot more frames and spread the old animation over the entirety of the new frame count. I remember suggestiong subtle changes on the way some things worked because as a beginner, they just didn't make sense to me why they worked the way they do, such as when you set a frame as a keyframe, tweening should no longer affect that frame from that point on (it should be an end-point/start-point of a tween)
Are you referring to the aniMate 2 aniblock system or the graphMate plugin?
Animate2 (both the aniblock system and the regular timeline) since I don't have graphmate or keymate.
Years ago before I had even heard of Daz, I was trying to animate a model I had extracted from a game as I wanted to try coding my own game based off the original (Just for fun and to see if I could)
Anyways, I tried out MilkShape as one of the softwares for the animation and I picked up a small tutorial and within just a couple hours, had the extracted model rigged and animated doing a few kicking moves. And this is from someone who had never touched anything 3d before.
I'm definately no pro or even really an experienced animator, but all the little quirks in animate2 just make animating in Daz too frustrating for me to deal with.
Man, I really, really hope this is true. DAZ has the best figures and a great renderer, but no dynamics and the animation system is archaic. I love DAZ, and I've been able to get a lot of mileage out of it, but this lack of support for animation is a terrible pity.
P.S. Wolf, where did @3Digit say he successfully tested V8 in iClone?
Hi
in this thread:
https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/175731/genesis-8
Does anybody know of examples of Genesis character animation in Daz? I've seen a lot of motions/walk cycles and tests of various characters in Daz, but I can't say I've seen a lot of full character animation with Genesis (characters talking, interacting in an environment.)
Ivy and SpearCarrier aka in the DAZ forums seem to be the only ones I have seen that have done scenes 100% animated in DAZ Studio and I'm not 100% that is true either but I think it is.
Hi some examples
Animated completely with lip sinc in Daz studio 4.8 with Genesis 1 & 2
but exported as.obj/MDD to Maxon C4D for rendering:
Space flight and cosmic effects
created with C4D & Adobe after effects
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2TYEp536iB8WWNCRjd4TDd2NkE/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2TYEp536iB8THNhYzV3c3VXN0k/view