A request for general guidelines on commercial products and Studio in general
dikatin
Posts: 33
DAZ serves high quality 3D content with a lot of effort put into it by its respective creators. However, over the years of my customership, some things began to rub me in the wrong ways.
I would like to request more in depth quality guidelines towards the presentation of the models on the marketplace and a few regarding the model quality in general.
- All models, if applicable, should have a bone-overview, probably attached as a simple "before you buy"-readme. If I buy a model for a cool looking tail, and I can't really use it because it has no bones but only some weird morphs, that's a major letdown.
- Interiors should always provide perspectives from all (in-)sides in order to see if they're closed or leave one or more sides open. That's by now, I think, a non-issue, but I would still like to stress its importance in context of this post.
- Models should provide a "No texture" and "No extra stuff" (normal maps, HD morphs, etc.) view, also from all sides, being it interiors or characters, to give me the opportunity to figure out how hard the model will go on the hardware.
- In general, it would be nice to have some sort of "performance measurement". As in "We have rendered a full image of this scene, as seen here in the screenshot, at a resolution of a, and it took x hours to render in IRay and y hours in 3Delight, as seen in the following screenshot".
- Please always include what other stuff you've used to render the promo images. That's sometimes the case, but not as often as I'd prefer. Some time I've seen some cool environment or prop or anything in a promo image for a character and I couldn't the hell figure out where it came from. Can it be acquired on DAZ? Or on another site? I know DAZ is a for profit company, but you'd do customers like me a big favor if you'd take this into consideration, even if it means you'd have to link off-site. This will make me come back because you're going to be the go-to-resource for all stuff 3D. I cannot stress this point enough.
- Do correct anatomy. I'm not talking about genitals, but the next time I see an animal's lower part that looks like a pear with legs attached to it (and an equally awful weight-painting job), I'm going to be seriously disappointed. Creatures of all sorts have butts, better get used to it.
- Do DAZ 5.0. Studio needs a ton of improvements, the path is even partially given by in-house Carrara (Hair and Fur-Simulation), and by end-at-all-means concurrent Poser (Clothing-Simulation, and by everything that's holy, a proper animation environment with actual inverse kinematics). Right now, the software's stagnating. You can only do that much against that with a constant content flow. The software begins to annoy me with its severe limitations.
That's it for now. Just an overview of my constantly growing frustration lately.
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Comments
Most of these are not issues for me, but I couldn't agree more on the "performance measurement" part! I have a couple of IRAY scenes that are unusable once I add figures and props
Too many variables to give a meaningful render time measurement, for the simple reason that the PA may have a better video card than you do. Not to mention they may not render the entire provided scene preloads, but break them down as some of us have to do to keep them from dropping to CPU (for Iray).
Stuff used in renders; ongoing complaint that has biweekly (or so it sometimes seems) threads crop up. Won't go into all the arguments, as folks on both sides have beaten the poor equine to a pulp already.
Food for thought on performance. I rendered my - https://www.daz3d.com/llamaghini-amenazador-version-2 - yesterday in iray with nothing else in the scene and the 400,000+ polygon mesh took up 30MB of vram while the 7 600x600 textures took up 15MB of vram. So textures will always eat up far more vram then the mesh will.
I want wire shaded views of models in the promos.
"On the following hardware: CPU at clock speed, GPU + VRAM, RAM amount + bandwidth it took this amout of time to render this promo image in IRay and this promo image in 3Delight. Maximum RAM usage during rendering in IRay was x GB, in 3Delight y GB". Of course, I don't expect a standard rig of some sort, but I can at least translate this sort of info onto my own configuration. To sort out all the variables, especially those pesky and highly optimizable render and everything settings, with an info like this is impossible without a doubt, but a rule-of-thumb would still be nice to have.
Some type of guidelines about minimal (or recommended) hardware requirements would be nice to see in more product blurbs as they may exceed the minimal requirements to run Studio. Many newer sets seem to not only feature more complex meshes than in the past but higher-resolution textures as well. That, to me, is as essential as mentioning which base figure a given clothing set is compatible with.
Clothing should do this for each individual piece, not just for the whole assembled outfit.
I'd actually like a listing of matzones, which is important for customization. There's quite a few products I've purchased that comprises of a single (!) surface.
Greetings,
...
And what multiple over current prices would you pay for that laundry list? 3x? 4x?
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
No, don't answer that, really...it doesn't matter, because even if one or two people ARE willing to pay the extra cost, the majority of people aren't...which leaves it a list of demands that result in no better circumstances for the artists.
To be clear, that list does not represent my interests at all; I'd much prefer the PA's spent time on the products, not on the promos. Time is not free.
-- Morgan
Couldn't have put it better.
There is bunch of stuff that I'd love to see on the promo pages (many listed above) but mostly I want more content to choose from at the same type of pricing.
If a product doesn't do as hoped for there's the 30 day return.
A picture is worth a thousand words. I personally agree with doing better promos that show off what the product is. I personally will look over all the promos before I bother to read a product description. And many times i dont bother with reading, I just drop it into my cart after looking at awsome promos
I have a feeling that if they published benchmarks using a CPU or low-end GPU it would negatively impact sales. Some vendors are better at designing their products to work across a wide variety of systems, while others don't put much consideration into optimization.
I agree we need more info to make better purchase decisions, but after all these years, I think the return guarantee is what they rely on to match product with customer. Vendors who, on their own, go the extra distance with detailed examples and screenshots (e.g. Zev0/Draagonstorm utilities, Mec4D shaders, and several others) are better deserving of our business. Those vendors who simply slap up a couple of renders and call it adequate really shouldn't expect a lot in return.
How many folks new to DAZ Studio and not extremely familiar with computer specifications, especially related to video card and system RAM would even understand what those things mean? I've been.building my own computers off and on for over 20 years, so I understand them.
+1
These are things I like when included (some of which are currently expected):
Warnings about heavy system impact. I don't need specifics, just "Robust system reccomended" or something like that
Texture map sizes and types (Gives me a better sense on how easily I can use the product in both render engines, especially if it's optimized for Iray and I want to use it in 3DL)
Clay renders
Promotional pictures of each component separated, so I know what can be used separately/removed if not needed in the shot
Material zone renders, so I know how easy it will be to kitbash
For 360 room environments: Notes in the description on if walls can be hidden for ease of camera placement
Lists of other things used in the Promo Pictures
I don't need any of these, of course, but including them (especially the individual components and the material zones) will bump a given product over a similar product that does not include those things.
Thats listed in the "What's Included and Features" section of the product page along with a listing of all presets included in the product and if they are Iray and or 3Delight
If you look at my product here - https://www.daz3d.com/llamaghini-amenazador-version-2 - you will see that it lists that some are both Iray and 3Delight while others are Iray only.
Well, I can guarantee that a bad, or lackluster promo has cost a PA more than a few sales. Time is a factor for everyone, and from an artists perspective, one of the main advantages of Daz is that buying content saves the time of having to do EVERYTHING yourself. If I'm under the impression that a purchase is going to be too much work because of a bad promo, than I'll do it myself or look elsewhere. Marketing IS an important part of business.
Bad/Lackluster by whose definition, as the one used by DAZ obviously differs from what some buyers use. And if DAZ gets promo images that don't fit what they are looking for, but still like the general idea of the product, they will request that new images be submitted.
PA's obviously choose their own promos to some extent. The definition of a bad/lackluster promo is the opinion of the person who decides not to buy an item based on that promo. Doesn't mean that Daz is going to request anything, because it'll only register to them as a lack of sales. Most people aren't going to comment, they just aren't going to buy. How much business a bad promo can cost a PA is really a figure you can't measure, unless someone wants to do a detailed study. If you go the standard statistical route of saying that one customer equals a particular number of potential customers the fact the two or three people on the comment threads that have admitted to not buying products due to promos means that a certain number of sales have been lost. It's simple math.
I agree that it's an opinion; I've put off buying some things because of promo images myself, but understand that DAZ has certain expectations when it come to promo images that are submitted for products. And yes, some percentage of potential buyers will simply not like the presentation and either not buy at all or only do so after seeing someone else post an image of the item in a manner that is more in line with what they feel the presentation should be. DAZ probably follows the "you can't please all the customers all the time" line of product presentation reasoning.
Which demands do you mean? That can't be met without multiplying the price? It needs render time, and I'd rather not put that on the content creators themselves. DAZ could provide that. Along with the scripts or the template scene that allows them to do it quickly and without pain. Studio is highly scriptable. This will be work, no doubt, but every task of optimization is a pain in the ass in the first place. In the long run however, it'll work out and make the product better. Trust me, I'm as high as mighty an engineer as you're a fox with your cool shades.
Or something else? Provide information about what was included in rendering a promo image? Heck, the software could do that, especially in a suspected "promo image mode". Studio already knows when a file is missing and asks me to download the product containing it. The base info is there and can be built upon.
Better butts? I agree on this. Anatomy is a freak ton of work, and in these regards I'd be willing to pay double the price than it is right now.
This was a very particular example, but thanks for pointing the flaw in it out. My point in these regards is, that people should have a measure they can work with. Not everyone has an idea how to interpret a measure like this, but if possible it should be given at least as a footnote. Over all, DAZ gloats about being used in Hollywood productions, and at the current state I can only imagine how hard the real and proper technicians at Hollywood are facepalming about the ... stuff.
Sure, but DAZ does not want to send people away from their site, so they do not allow listing of content found elsewhere, be it at another store site, or a freebie site. This is a big part of why you don't see a list of every item used in promo images. Other reasons they may not all be listed include that a vendor is using an item that is not yet available for sale here, so there is no link for people to follow to buy it.
Just make it clear. Say how it is. Don't let your customers guess why this or that may be. It might be a shock, but your customers are clever to the extend that they understand when something goes awry. We're, at all, just people.
I think it is less that the software can't show it and more that the people who do the promo renders don't keep track of that info since the promos are often farmed out and, like most of us, the artists don't keep a running list of what they used in every render. It all gets even more complicated if the product is no longer available or not available to the public (many artists have their own "house" models that they use exclusively for their own products and do not sell) so Daz3d has to deal with those endlss demands of "i want thatr character...it is not available commercially... but I want it". i don't think there is any 3d store that lists eveything used in a promotional render.
The Published Artists HAVE BEEN saying this, for probably almost as long as I've been on these forums. I suspect they would be the ones that know best what is and isn't allowed.
Considering my rank on these forums, I might not have got everything that was going on. At least I now know that "PA" means "Published Artists", as of now ~ I'll be attentively watching in the future. Particularly Stonemason (awesome anyways) and Josh Crockett (damn ...), and hoping that RawArt - the person that got me captured onto Daz in the first place with his models - find his perfection once again.
Two recent threads on why not everything is or can be listed in the prooduct description.
https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/comment/2299986/#Comment_2299986
https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/comment/2159566/#Comment_2159566
I am probably a "thread-killer" but what i would like is for the SKU to be a link to the Product Read-Me which lists everything contained in the product. I would add a littl text below it telling people that it leads to the Read-Me which would have one added bit of lanquage telling people that only products listed in the Read-Me are included. Showing what Daz3d products are used is difficult; I believe that the artists who create their promos don't necesarily have a list of what they used or kitbashed so it would require a lot of extra documentation, surveying, and linking probably with little payoff. I would prefer that the store continue making new products rather than niche pursuits like identifying everything in a promo. However, I think that the documentation Center is an underutilized resource that could be used to expand on what is in a product. I use it every time I want to know what specifically is in a product, whether there are user-facing files, whether the product is installed properly i.e... the file and folder names match the Read-Me, and when the vendor includes a pdf (a link is always there).
Well, if you use DIM, you already have access to the readme page in the documentation center; that's what the icon next to the download button is for. And the store page already lists what's included, and states that pretty plainly.