To all Poser users

13

Comments

  • ZaarinZaarin Posts: 356
    edited December 1969

    @Ann: I guess that's what I get for speculating where I had no business speculating. :( Also, thank you for your continued support of Gen4. It's meant a lot to me. :)

    @Surreality: Sorry for dragging you in to this! Again, I feel bad talking about things I really didn't know about. :( Thanks for your post, and for your honest discussion of what's going on. Also, I was thinking about making a purchase but I'll be waiting for your next release instead. ;) I also hear you on time management; I've been working on converting some of Marieah's products to Poser, and finding the focus to just sit down and make materials roughly equivalent to DS materials...it's a challenge. Especially when I had school claiming my time (last semester caught me completely off guard with how demanding it would be), and now getting a new computer and having to reinstall everything...Yeah. I'm a workaholic myself, but my creative energies tend to focus more on my writing and linguistic work than art, sadly.

  • DAZ_ann0314DAZ_ann0314 Posts: 2,166
    edited June 2012

    Zaarin: Don't feel bad...we all speculate from time to time and when that part of the topic isn't discussed often its easy to do I think :)


    I feel kinda badly bringing the other POV into this but it needed to be said. As this fight wages on (like with any actually war) people in the middle get swept into it and start feeling the whole "pick a side" pressure. I know I have...to such an extent that a few month back (while not public knowledge) I debated on not doing products at all anymore. The general pressure from this topic, combined with how angry folks are on both sides, combined with my own self need to "make everyone happy" has made it very hard for me to feel inspired about anything. The whole time I am working, instead of thinking about who my character "is" (yes they all have a personality that tends to come out to me at some point and tell me who they are kinda) but instead now instead of kinda hearing them I hear...why did you do this like that. Why wasn't this included...how could you not care about this or that group over and over in my head and honestly it is zapping all creativity.


    My choice (since I have other choices) was to move to doing our freebies and environment stuff since that I thought was less likely to make me feel that way but even then it's more of the same though on a smaller scale. :( This is not me saying I don't want feedback...I do. I LOVE feedback. I want to know how we can be making things better, and what we need to do to forge onward in more positive, creative directions but it's kinda the lack of general positive feedback to offset the ideas that over the months has become less and less and less.


    As I mentioned before, for me, I don't need a ticker tape parade or fan fair or anything but like any other creative person, knowing people love what you are doing (or even like it) is something that does help you want to put your butt in your seat and keep going. Some people make what they make for them and some days I so envy those people. They make what they feel and makes them happy and they don't fret about the rest. I sadly by design tend to be a people pleaser (kinda in all facets of my life actually) and tend to work in the direct opposite way :( Which is really really hard these days when everyone is so unhappy.


    Now to go off topic a little and into something larger then this issue...and please know if what I say ticks you off...this is just me...and only me saying how I feel. Not anyone at DAZ3D at all. (Matter of fact they would probably not be happy with me for defending them on any level.. but I just can't kinda keep going without saying, at least once, how I feel which may upset some and for that I greatly apologize but I hope you read it in the spirit it is said in which is more about putting things in perspective then anything)


    I get the unhappiness here and the frustration. I really do. Things have not gone smoothly for some time. People are kinda fed up with things as everything has just compounded...one issue on top of another...DS4, Genesis, no documentation, fights about who has the bigger ...erm... app (*smile*), changes to Platinum Club, a site changeover that has not went so hot (yes I very politely understated that), support and customer service getting backed up, etc.


    All these things have drained everyone here. The customers, PA's, DAZ3D itself. If one thing went right, I may fall over of a heart attack at this point. I do know DAZ3D has been working to resolve many of these things (the site changeover and the support backup currently being the two big ones) but people have lost faith in their ability to turn things around I think.


    Now to take this to a more personal level which I may regret:
    In my own life, we have struggled a LOT (and totally suffer from "our best plans or intentions never seem to pan out the way we expected") and I know what it is like for people to look at you and go yeah right you're trying your best ...yeah sure you'll have what you owe us next week (soon...yeah right I'm not betting on that). I know what it's like for people to assume the worst and least from you even after years of being faithful to them and doing your best to come through on every every promise with good results 98% of the time. They can't see how hard you are trying to make ends meet or just how hard you are working to make things better and to fix whatever it is you dropped the ball on. They just look at a piece of paper where you are another number, look over the last year or whatever and make their assumptions based on that number. With the economy the way it is, I am sure many of us have been on the receiving end of that sort of thinking. The thought that you are not the sum of all your past actions, just the sum of the last so many where you were wrong or things didn't go as you said or expected. :( I guess what I am saying here is people are more then that. We are all more then that. DAZ3D is more then that. Yes, they have dropped the ball. Had some problems. Had some things happen they didn't expect and now aren't sure how to resolve (like genesis in Poser). It kinda just rips my heart out to see them only be the sum of those things but not be the sum of all the good they have done as well :( I know the ball is in their court to fix this perception and to restore your faith, just like the ball being in mine to make the collectors I deal with see I am working in the right direction as well. I just truly hope everyone can maybe stop a moment to just think about the positives as well and give them the time they need to turn things around on all fronts. I do know they are trying or I wouldn't be standing here right now saying any of this.

    Post edited by DAZ_ann0314 on
  • ledheadledhead Posts: 1,586
    edited December 1969

    Zaarin: Don't feel bad...we all speculate from time to time and when that part of the topic isn't discussed often its easy to do I think :)


    ....snip....


    I do know they are trying or I wouldn't be standing here right now saying any of this.

    Thank you Aundrea for pouring your heart out like that, it is much appreciated.

  • ChristenChristen Posts: 240
    edited December 1969

    @surreality - Love your post, and yes I did read it all. Alllllllllll of it lol.


    Between you and Ann, I think we all have a better idea now of the situation the vendors are in. I personally have not intentionally tried to hurt anyone's feelings, or chase anyone's muse away. Maybe an idea for you and Ann (and others feeling the same) could take our wanting your creations to work in our chosen program (whatever program that may be) as a compliment rather than a constant headache? Perhaps that would make things a bit easier on you?


    I wouldn't expect anyone to choose sides, or expect anyone to have a Genesis & Poser version of everything they release (would hope for a Poser version of course lol), or boycott anyone that made a Genesis/DS only product. As I said before, if something compatible with Poser is released that I have use for I will buy it if I have the $ at the time, or try and get it when I can afford it. I wish I was rich so I could buy every shiny new toy.


    I don't like the app wars either. I've never said one was better/worse than the other because I honestly do not know. No matter what computer I've had I've never been able to get DS to run properly, if at all. So I can't compare Poser & DS.


    I wish there was an easy solution to all of this.....

  • LordHardDrivenLordHardDriven Posts: 937
    edited June 2012

    There were alot of great points made in the last two pages and I want to thank Anne and Surreality for their insight. I can't speak for everyone but perspectives from PA's on this issue carry far more weight then anyone else's as you're on the frontlines and you know, rather then assume what it's like, to do what you PA's do.


    I'd like to address a couple of points that were made or implied. Mainly the one of "I'm trying to support Gen 4 but nobody seems to notice or appreciate that fact in the forums." I'm willing to bet that the vast majority saying nobody is supporting Gen 4, even though you guys actually are supporting it, are people who are unaware of your work. Like Surreality, you've stated you go for more unconventional, less pin up like characters, which is fine, I love your work and have bought many of your items. Pin up characters are so prevelent and plentiful that they've become something of a joke to me, kind of like a NVIATWAS (Naked Vicky In A Temple With A Sword). Anyway, there are so many vendors that it's difficult for individuals to fully keep up with everything that's being done by all PA's and so when they say "Nobody is supporting Gen 4 or Poser" it i really more just their perception and they might not be aware of the efforts of those who do still support Gen 4 or Poser. I imagine some are including you guys because perhaps they are interested in things other then what certain individual PA's make. For example if someone was a consumer that wants the Pinup look then it's likely that a Surreality type figure is even on their radar and so to them it still feels like nobody is supporting Gen 4 because nothing they want is being made for Gen 4. Now I'm saying that more to illustrate the point and am not trying to say no PA is making Pinup type characters for Gen 4 figures. So I would say try not to take it personally when people make blanket statements but rather only take it personally when someone says that you specifically are or are not doing something. I'd also bet that times when people have responded in ways where they dismiss your efforts that you pointed out, it probably comes when you step into a debate like this and say "Well I for one am still making Gen 4 stuff". If they said "Nobody is making Gen 4 stuff" and you say "Well actually that's not true, I am" even though maybe you didn't mean it that way you more or less just called them a liar. Their perspective of nobody is doing something is technically wrong as they're really saying "Nobody is making stuff I personally want for Gen 4" but if you correct that in a debate they're likely to feel challenged and are likely to respond defensively. Unfortunately human nature for most is that we tend to say things we don't really mean when we get defensive.


    Another point I would like to address is the notion that this debate is an all or nothing debate. There may be some that just totally hate Studio for some reason or another but from all of the people I know on the side feeling Poser users are becoming neglected, none of them want to see Genesis dropped they just don't want to see Gen 4 stuff dropped. I personally want to see Genesis stay around because I some point I do want to use it and Studio. Not exclusively but rather in addition to Poser. I don't think any of the Poser users that are upset are wanting to force the rest of the world to use Poser, they just don't want to feel like they're being force to use Studio. Even though really and truely nobody is being forced to use anything. Perhaps a big part of the problem is that the market has grown and been directed in such a way as to leave the average customer totally dependent on others to create content for them rather then them creating it themselves. I'm not saying that necessarily bad because by going that way it opens the world up to people who are artistic but just can't grasp how to make things themselves. Unfortunately if one can't make things themselves then they lose that as an option when nobody is making things they want.


    I think what's really at issue for alot of the people on the Poser side of this debate is the history of Poser content and how companies like Daz supply them. I remember very similar debates when Daz moved away from Gen 3 to Gen 4. Although those debates weren't about Poser not being supported. What I'm trying to get at though is that historically once a new generation comes out support for the older generation dries up and virtually disappears, at least at Daz. It wasn't so bad though because in the past the new generation was still meant for Poser as Studio was in the early stages of developement. With Gen 5 though if you don't use Studio you're SOL and this whole issue might not exist if Daz made V5 and M5 as a Genesis version and a Poser Version. The thing though is this, if Daz continues true to it's history Gen 4 will die out and at that point customers loving only Poser will either have to adapt or go elsewhere. Unfortunately deep down they don't want to go elsewhere. Deep down they want to stay with Daz but not if they have to give up what they're comfortable with.

    Post edited by LordHardDriven on
  • SassyWenchSassyWench Posts: 601
    edited December 1969

    >snip

    Now to take this to a more personal level which I may regret:
    In my own life, we have struggled a LOT (and totally suffer from "our best plans or intentions never seem to pan out the way we expected") and I know what it is like for people to look at you and go yeah right you're trying your best ...yeah sure you'll have what you owe us next week (soon...yeah right I'm not betting on that). I know what it's like for people to assume the worst and least from you even after years of being faithful to them and doing your best to come through on every every promise with good results 98% of the time. They can't see how hard you are trying to make ends meet or just how hard you are working to make things better and to fix whatever it is you dropped the ball on. They just look at a piece of paper where you are another number, look over the last year or whatever and make their assumptions based on that number. With the economy the way it is, I am sure many of us have been on the receiving end of that sort of thinking. The thought that you are not the sum of all your past actions, just the sum of the last so many where you were wrong or things didn't go as you said or expected. :( I guess what I am saying here is people are more then that. We are all more then that. DAZ3D is more then that. Yes, they have dropped the ball. Had some problems. Had some things happen they didn't expect and now aren't sure how to resolve (like genesis in Poser). It kinda just rips my heart out to see them only be the sum of those things but not be the sum of all the good they have done as well :( I know the ball is in their court to fix this perception and to restore your faith, just like the ball being in mine to make the collectors I deal with see I am working in the right direction as well. I just truly hope everyone can maybe stop a moment to just think about the positives as well and give them the time they need to turn things around on all fronts. I do know they are trying or I wouldn't be standing here right now saying any of this.

    Ann, this broke my heart. :( Partly because I hate to see anyone struggling so and partly because I'm walking the same path. I was out of work for 2 years except for some on again off again demo jobs and even though I've been working full time for a year and a half now, it'll be another 2 years until we get even...maybe, possibly, if nothing else goes wrong.

    But believe this Ann and Surreality, and especially Daz- there are loads of us out here rooting for you! We're the ones just popping into a thread to say it's a lovely product without any "but" after it. We're the ones reading some of these threads lately and getting sick over the hate being spewed at Daz. We're the ones only posting to confirm a problem so it might give Daz another clue, or helping someone solve a problem with the new site that we know a work around for. And we're shopping the way we always did, and we're waiting for the PC issues to be resolved. There really are lots of us.


    We know the saying "the best laid plans.." and we'll wait til all is fixed, knowing Daz will do something spectacular and all will be right with this corner of the world. :)
    I've been here long enough to feel like Daz and lots of you all are like family, and family sometimes makes you crazy but in the end it's still family. :)

    We'll all be ok!

    Love and Light.. Sassy

  • DAZ_ann0314DAZ_ann0314 Posts: 2,166
    edited December 1969

    I've been here long enough to feel like Daz and lots of you all are like family, and family sometimes makes you crazy but in the end it's still family. :)

    I feel the same way. This is so much my home and family away from home and my solace from the chaos kinda. I've spent a blessed 8 years here surrounded by the most amazing people I've never gotten to meet but know better then my next door neighbors LOL


    My feelings on the whole Poser/DS thing:
    I do know when people say "nothing is being released" it isn't meant personally. And I daily remind myself of that and I also agree saying "but that isn't true" would be calling someone's perception or feelings wrong or a lie which is something I don't ever want to do as saying someone is wrong for their personal feelings is a complete injustice to that person. Life kicks us all in the gut enough without doing it to each other here. I did want to share how it feels for me though as I felt it was worth saying but it wasn't directed at anyone specifically...more just the topic generally. And I hope no one felt it was directed "at them". I just wanted to explain how I was feeling as I rarely do these days because I am a DAZ employee as well as a PA and I don't want what I say as a PA to reflect badly on DAZ3D because I am also an employee. Those that are on my own sites' forums know it got to a point where I thought about just walking away from being a PA. Not because anyone did anything wrong but just because the amount of pressure from all this was almost too overwhelming to deal with.


    Between the users of these two apps, sometimes it does feel like being stuck in the middle of a war zone with people on all sides pulling at you to pick a side. ( I do understand why it's like this though...creative people after all are very passionate people) Well I am stating here and now, I love Poser. BUT I also love DAZ3D so by extension I love their baby DAZ Studio. I respect those that choose it over Poser just as I hope they respect my choice as well. Watching these threads where people fight over the apps and almost seemingly try to force each other to choose theirs has just GOT...TO...STOP. If someone wants to see more Poser items, they have that right. If someone wants to see more DS items...they too have that right. Just stop, stop, stop fighting each other on who has more rights...which app is the best...which company is to "blame" All that is doing is putting those making products in the middle of WWIII and in the end everyone will lose. People will stop creating and this beautiful community full of creativity will just be a hollow shell of what it once was. Don't make me break out singing give peace a chance cuz I just may go to that as option B...just warning you all ;)


    On DAZ3D in general and their rather rocky year this year:
    DAZ3D is a company that we do business with and with that comes expectations as with any company but at least for me, they are something more personal then that. They picked me up when I was at my lowest and helped my family when we needed it most. I know the true beauty of this company and the people that work for it (Though I do understand I was fortunate to have that kind of experience with them where others have not) and while I don't expect that to make up for their mistakes and I do expect them to fix things, for me, it does change how I look at them. I don't see just another company I do business with... I see the people behind the company. Hard working, smart, caring people doing their very best to correct their wrongs, make their customers and PA's happy, and do those things with heart. Those that work behind the scenes do it with more heart and dedication and love then I have ever seen put into a company. Sometimes they are dead on and things go beautifully and smoother and other times (and lately more then not) they kinda remind me of Charlie Brown. NOTHING and I mean NOTHING seems to go right. Despite the best laid plans, intentions, or hard work. While I know some here feel that means they are lazy, not taking things seriously, not paying attention, that they don't care, that all they care about is your money...I know and can see that isn't the case. I do understand why people would think those things though. Why wouldn't they. I know in my own personal experience pretty much every company I have ever dealt with could care less about what I need or want or who I am. I'm a dollar sign and that's all (please see my last paragraph in my previous post) But DAZ3D is not your average company. They are artists who went into business for the love of their art not business people who decided to help sell art tools in the hopes of making millions. Just as we all are passionate about the tools we use and our artwork, they are equally passionate about their business and the many amazing artists they have the pleasure to be able to work with on a daily basis (artists meaning everyone here...customers, PA's...everyone). They care about what happens here. For the employees this company is there life. Their love for this company and all their customers is so infectious that even though I work only part-time for them, it has become a very big part of my life (and would continue to be even if I didn't work for them). To cut this rather long winded paragraph short, I'll just say what I should have to begin with...I <3 this company and everyone that works for and with it and feel blessed to be here with them in the thick of things everyday. It's not often someone can say that and not something I have ever said of another company.</p>


    While most of you wouldn't know me from Adam if you passed me on the street, I do hope that at the very least what you get (if you read all that..long winded creature that I am LOL) is just how much I LOVE and RESPECT this company and I hope even without knowing me that the sincerity of that shines through. Why I just rambled all that though, IDK maybe because right now I thought it important for people to kinda see them through my eyes for a moment. I think who they are has been lost to the sum of their recent problems and just like me when I make mistakes, they are far more then that. Or at least to me. :)

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 30,445
    edited December 1969

    ...Ann, Surreality, Lord Hard Driven, excellent posts.


    I may be critical of Daz's handling of situations like the way they rush a new version of their applications out as well as the current site migration fiasco but it's not because I am mad at them as it is more that I am afraid moves such as these could quite possibly kill the company.


    Daz it why I am in this in the first place.


    I have come to realise app wars are futile. You use what best suits your workflow at the time and for the specific purpose. This is why I have Daz Studio, Carrara, Bryce, and Poser all on my system. I love how intuitive the Studio UI is and how simple it is to set up lighting. I like the way Poser handles textures and dynamics, I like the way Carrara and Bryce work with terrain generation. The only shortcoming is modelling as Hexagon in it's current version is too unstable (which is why I am learning Blender).

  • DAZ_ann0314DAZ_ann0314 Posts: 2,166
    edited June 2012

    ssgbryan said:
    I will believe DAZ is serious about righting the ship when someone is shown the door for their screw-ups. That isn't harsh - it is a simple reality - decision have consequences. This a business and DAZ needs to start acting like a business instead of an emo teenager.

    Well since I was speaking for me and not DAZ3D that would make me the emo teenager and well my last post was even worse so I wouldn't read that.


    On the "people should be fired" how do we know that hasn't happened? (Speaking generally)


    If a company lets someone go for mistakes, said company would/or at least should never put in big neon letters "hey we fired this person for their mistakes" A company takes responsibility for all actions of it's employees, right or wrong and when wrong they take the responsibility to resolve whatever may have been done wrong (or try their best to). They wouldn't throw an employee under the bus to prove or show they were being proactive and asking for such a thing is like asking to put the offender on fire in front of town square so everyone can enjoy the burning. And in seeing the person burn, does it fix the problem? Does it resolve anything at all other then getting to watch that person be shamed in front of everyone? Sure, temporarily, it could make people feel more safe until tomorrow when things don't change and they need to see the next person set aflame to believe there is action taking place.


    It seems to me the better expectation is not to want to see that but rather to see things being fixed and resolved and to see action taking place. Sadly, online you can't see people frantically working to fix something...much like you can't when you call into a company. You can't see them working through their weekends and up all hours of the night. All you can see is the end results of that work once it is done. And sadly waiting for results can seem endless. Especially when you're the one waiting. I get that it's frustrating and it does feel like maybe no one is doing anything. And I get that if I said people are, it wouldn't be enough. As they say, seeing is believing. The most anyone can do is make a choice whether they have enough belief to want to wait and see. If not, that is a failing DAZ3D needs to correct but only time and action can correct that. Nothing else. My words were not about excuses for DAZ3D, they were my view of them. I don't expect it to make them less accountable for their faults or make people feel "bad" for them. I do expect people to see them for the human beings they are though. Something sorely lacking online quite often. We forget that behind the screen is real people...not robots, or magicians who can wave a wand and fix things. Just people. Honestly, I can't say anything that would change anyone's mind about how they feel about DAZ3D anymore then I can make someone love Poser or love DAZ Studio. Each person has to make up their own mind based on their experiences with this company. Your experience is that they have let you down, and for that I feel terrible and will gladly relay that feeling (and do often when people post that they feel that way). As for my own experience, they have at times let me down but they have also done far more good and right then any other company I have ever dealt with and because of that I don't know that I could or would ever stop believing in them. All I can do is hope they can prove to you that you are important to them and that they are serious about righting things that are wrong and hopefully over time (which changes take) they will.

    Post edited by DAZ_ann0314 on
  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 30,445
    edited June 2012


    On the "people should be fired" how do we know that hasn't happened? (Speaking generally)


    If a company lets someone go for mistakes, said company would/or at least should never put in big neon letters "hey we fired this person for their mistakes" A company takes responsibility for all actions of it's employees, right or wrong and when wrong they take the responsibility to resolve whatever may have been done wrong (or try their best to). They wouldn't throw an employee under the bus to prove or show they were being proactive and asking for such a thing is like asking to put the offender on fire in front of town square so everyone can enjoy the burning.


    ...unfortunately where I work that exact thing is done,within house. I have seen employees "dressed down" by management in front of the rest of the staff (and even been the subject of such treatment myself) on numerous occasions. Hopefully Daz is above this sort of thing as it is very unprofessional behaviour.
    Post edited by kyoto kid on
  • DAZ_ann0314DAZ_ann0314 Posts: 2,166
    edited June 2012

    Kyoto Kid said:

    ...unfortunately where I work that exact thing is done,within house. I have seen employees "dressed down" by management in front of the rest of the staff (and even been the subject of such treatment myself) on numerous occasions. Hopefully Daz is above this sort of thing as it is very unprofessional behaviour.

    I've worked for companies like that before as well :( I've even worked for companies that will throw a "worker bee" under the bus as a sacrifice to appease the masses for something they were told to do by upper management to cover there own tracks and save their own toosh...I work here now because they definitely NOT one of those companies :) It's also why those of us that work for them have such a dedication to them. Doing what you mentioned only demoralized that person and then demolishes the moral of the staff left behind and once that happens you won't get the best out of your employees. Fear doesn't make better employees. JMHO. Respect and treating them with integrity does..that's what gets you the 110% even when the chips are down and your employees are at their breaking points.

    Post edited by DAZ_ann0314 on
  • mrposermrposer Posts: 1,046
    edited December 1969

    Its interesting to get such insight from PA vendors and those that work for the store. My point of view is from a customer... I have heard people say Daz is the Store poser built... but I would say Daz is the Store Victoria built... it is the success of Victoria and somewhat of Michael that brought the customers to Daz. So its not that we as customers are against Genesis... I have Daz Studio 4 Pro ... I actually paid for it. The big disappointment is that the new versions of our beloved Victoria and Michael no longer work in Poser. Victoria 4 even with the weight mapping from other sources is still needing an upgrade... and Daz should be the store to do it... new base figures that work in Poser and keep supporting Genesis for your Daz customers.

  • DAZ_ann0314DAZ_ann0314 Posts: 2,166
    edited June 2012

    MrPoser said:
    Its interesting to get such insight from PA vendors and those that work for the store. My point of view is from a customer... I have heard people say Daz is the Store poser built... but I would say Daz is the Store Victoria built... it is the success of Victoria and somewhat of Michael that brought the customers to Daz. So its not that we as customers are against Genesis... I have Daz Studio 4 Pro ... I actually paid for it. The big disappointment is that the new versions of our beloved Victoria and Michael no longer work in Poser. Victoria 4 even with the weight mapping from other sources is still needing an upgrade... and Daz should be the store to do it... new base figures that work in Poser and keep supporting Genesis for your Daz customers.

    I totally agree on all of the above. I would love to see Genesis in Poser, but if I can't I really hope I see V5 there and M5 etc or at the very least a DAZ3D release of V4 WM with all the new Poser dressing. Cant say whether that will or wont happen but I know I've expressed that wish to them often though doing it would have to be done in a way that it doesnt further split the PAs in two (maybe some sort of scripting in Poser that helps so their work can carry across to everything. IDK if or how that could be done but THAT would thrill me LOL)

    Post edited by DAZ_ann0314 on
  • backgroundbackground Posts: 77
    edited June 2012

    I appreciate the position of the PAs and I sympathise with the difficulties of trying to please a diverse user base, especially when parts of that userbase are demanding diametrically opposite responses. I have no problem with people wanting to use different applications to those I choose use myself. I really don't understand the sense of entitlement some users of this site seem to have though. Just as one customer may feel they are justified in complaining about change they don't like, that doesn't and never should override the views of other customers whose more positive views are equally valid, I shop here because I like the products and the people,

    I suspect that making a special version of V5/M5 for Poser would actually create more arguments, rather than less, since you would then have some people pushing for more content for those, in additon the the existing demands for Genesis vs Gen4. I don't believe all Gen4 users would, or could, adopt a Poserised V5/M5, so demand for Gen4 would still be there. In addition I am sure there would be significant development costs, which someone would have to pick up the tab for, so the figures could be quite expensive.

    Post edited by background on
  • LordHardDrivenLordHardDriven Posts: 937
    edited December 1969


    I suspect that making a special version of V5/M5 for Poser would actually create more arguments, rather than less, since you would then have some people pushing for more content for those, in additon the the existing demands for Genesis vs Gen4. I don't believe all Gen4 users would, or could, adopt a Poserised V5/M5, so demand for Gen4 would still be there. In addition I am sure there would be significant development costs, which someone would have to pick up the tab for, so the figures could be quite expensive.

    You may be right but I'm inclined to disagree. Alot of the content for Genesis is just a rework of Gen 4 outfits to work with Genesis (MFD, Liquid Halo, ArtemisX, Future Cop, Svana, Fantasy Wrap, just to name a few) and so if it can be converted from Gen 4 to Genesis then it should be able to go the other way as well. As for Poser users not being able to adopt V5/M5 the only reason they shouldn't be able to is lack of money but if they can't afford to buy stuff then they're not going to be demanding anything. As I stated before whenever Daz switched from one generation to another there is some period where the older generation is still supported but it's usually just a few months then nothing. Any Daz customer that has been thru that once or three times like me knows and is used to that being how things go. The only thing making this any different is the fact that the latest generation is also cutting out Poser as well as the previous generation. I also doubt the developement should be all that tricky or expensive they were able to fairly easily and quickly make Genesis be able to look like all the old Gen 5 figures so again making a V5 and M5 that works in poser should not be that complicated or problematic. I'll admit though I could be wrong as I haven't clue one about the technical aspect of figure creation. I'm just going by the things I've seen which suggests that it really shouldn't be an issue. If anything is going to keep the demand strong for Gen 4 with Poser users is the fact that going forward Poser appears to be out of Daz's loop, so the only choices for Poser customers is to either keep demanding Gen 4 stuff loudly, go back to older even less supported figures or go with some other company that developes figures that are better then Gen 4.

  • DAZ_ann0314DAZ_ann0314 Posts: 2,166
    edited June 2012

    Well if Genesis worked for everyone then you would probably see the same general trend of a month or two and then nothing much for Gen 4. In this case though the PAs that use Poser (like Sur, Ignis, myself) are in the same boat of not being able to create content for the latest thing (or not wanting to depending) so because of that I don't see Gen 4 going away. Not unless somehow our minds on DS change and since Genesis and DS4 have been out quite some time now (far longer then a few months...going towards 1 year I believe) and many are still supporting Gen 4 or supporting both, I can't see that just "stopping". I can see people making this for one and that for the other depending on what it is possibly or trying out supporting things individually to see what works best for each PA but at least for now unless something change, I don't see Gen 4 phasing out to nothingness like Gen 3 did. ATM most PAs are still just trying to sort out the best workflow for their items...Genesis, Gen 4, DS, Poser, all, none etc LOL

    Post edited by DAZ_ann0314 on
  • backgroundbackground Posts: 77
    edited June 2012

    I don't think the Gen4 line will be phased out quickly.

    The previous major figures were replaced by a process of evolution. All users had the opportunity to use the new versions as they became available, so there was no real value in retaining the older versions just for their own sake. This time the process is more revolution rather than evolution, and at least for the moment there are practical reasons why some customers can't use Genesis. There is therefore good reason for DAZ to continue with Gen4 so long as there is demand, and so long as Gen4 content sells sufficienty well to justify keeping it in the store, and adding new content.

    I have no connection with DAZ other than as a customer, so the above is just my opinion, and nothing more.

    Post edited by background on
  • LordHardDrivenLordHardDriven Posts: 937
    edited December 1969

    Well I'm only suggesting Gen 4 might be phased out soon because as it stands now there are a number of addons to make legs, arms, butt, breasts etc look better. In the past the evolution of figures always seemed to be about creating a more realistic looking figure. So I'm guessing that rather then continuing on with an imperfect item that needs so many addons for enhanced realism they would just come out with a newer version for Poser, if not V5/M5 then maybe V6/M6? If demand stays high (people demanding loudly for it) and there is no better figure available then sure in that case Gen 4 will stay around a good while.

  • frank0314frank0314 Posts: 10,821
    edited December 1969

    There is sill gen3 stuff in the store so I don't see it fading out anytime soon. A lot of Poser PA's are still supporting Gen4 so that would be another reason.

  • JasmineSkunkJasmineSkunk Posts: 1,253
    edited June 2012

    Some of this is going to get a little technical, and for that I apologize. It's also going to meander a little around some interconnected points. Just getting that out of the way in advance. :) Y'all will also very quickly see why I never post: I am a shockingly long-winded person by default.


    I am also going to share a (work-safe, no worries there) link that Arien shared with me, and I've been doing my level best to spread all over the dang interwebs ever since. It's here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikAb-NYkseI -- and this is all delivered by a wiser and far more articulate soul than I could ever hope to be.

    I just had to stop back in and say thanks for sharing this. I really enjoyed it. This was my favorite quote:

    "You get work however you get work, but people keep working, in a freelance world, and more and more of today's world is freelance, because their work is good, and because they're easy to get along with and because they deliver the work on time... and you don't even need all three.
    Two out of three is fine. (audience laughter)

    People will tolerate how unpleasant you are, if your work is good and you deliever it on time.

    People will forgive the lateness of your work if it's good and they like you.

    And you don't have to be as good as everyone else if you're on time and it's always a pleasure to hear from you."

    -Neil Gaiman

    Thanks again.

    Post edited by JasmineSkunk on
  • surrealitysurreality Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    There is so, so very much in that link that I really love -- that's one of the big ones. :)

    There is also a lot of truth in it! I do think we do our best work when we're dangling our rumps out in the wind in some respect. The whole bit about 'doing it for the money' rarely resulting in something you like OR the money another big one; it's certainly been my experience.

    There's a bit more I'd love to say, but our AC is sputtering, and I'm wary of running the (one, there's only the one) comp too long until it's fixed up. (See, I burned out the AC with my long-windedness; all that hot air overpowered the poor thing! Now we know what can stop a Trane. ;) )

    One thing I DO want to say, however: I don't know a single PA who doesn't really appreciate their customers. Zaarin is one of my favorite people in the world to hear from. ;) (So NO feeling bad about mentioning me, got it? *chuckle*) There are SO many others I dare not try to make a list out of fear I'd forget someone, but y'all (hopefully) know who you are. When times are rough, sometimes it's -really- easy to forget to say one thing that is amazingly important: thank you guys for sticking through all of this with us this far, and I know that at least I really hope that when all the dust settles, we can all keep making good art. :)

  • edited December 1969

    Let me add my voice to those who feel frozen out, here. I don't want to point fingers at anyone. I can't blame DAZ for wanting to push the envelope with a new figure. I don't know enough about how software works to understand why SM didn't want to make Genesis Poser-compatible (or why DAZ simply couldn't do that in the first place) and it really doesn't matter. That's just the case. I will not switch to Studio - too much time to learn it and I'd have to download way too much stuff that I never did - I always only got the Poser files of products I bought. I am also unlikely to buy Poser 2014 or whatever the next version is unless it supports Genesis or unless SM comes out with their own figures - and by that I mean ones that are up to DAZ standards and, most importantly, include CHILD figures. That horror that is Ben is in now way acceptable.
    I am unsure if I am going to keep the PC or not. Depends on the ratio to clothes (which I can't use) or props. I like the props - I suspect I will try the PC for one more year.
    But this site has lost a lot for me. I used to come here several times a day. Now it goes days without me checking. The new forum is UGLY and unpleasant to look at. It hurts my eyes. The store is a mess. I don't get the same nice, fun feelings I used to get. I was a DAZ booster from when I first signed up, but not when I get here, I open leave in a worse mood than when I came. What's the fun in that? I really hope things change for the better - this is what I do for fun and I really enjoyed it. I will keep using the figures I have - shoot, it's not like K4 got a ton of support anyway - but I hope DAZ is at least able to right the ship. And I hope whoever had the idea for Genesis got fired - it was an extremely poor business decision to alienate half of your customer base even for a more advanced figure.

  • Satira CapriccioSatira Capriccio Posts: 523
    edited December 1969

    My eyes start watering after a few minutes of attempting to read posts. It's a bit easier to read the quotes ... apparently, the bluish grey background provides more contrast than the light grey.


    But whatever it is ... I now close the tabs after visiting the site, where in the past, I always kept the DAZ store and forums open in tabs. And ... I go days between visits now too.

    .

    But this site has lost a lot for me. I used to come here several times a day. Now it goes days without me checking. The new forum is UGLY and unpleasant to look at. It hurts my eyes.
  • DAZ_ann0314DAZ_ann0314 Posts: 2,166
    edited June 2012

    Totally OT but I don't like the color scheme either...just saying LOL With my eyes that was the first thing I said when I saw the new site...OOOOWW my eyeses hehe I tend to like the darker colors, find it easier on my eyes to read light on dark *though I know others are the exact opposite and whites etc are still somewhat seen as more professional in some circles and the automatic pick for default in some cases* Dark sites tend to make artwork and products pop off the page more as well or to me which is an additional benefit. I doubt they will get to even thinking about doing that or adding in schemes for awhile though :( In the meantime there are plugins for most of the browsers like Color It for those interested. I didn't just cuz I have had time to mess with it though I do wonder if someone made a color it theme if it is something that could possibly be shared? OK sorry back to regularly scheduled programming all ready taking place :) .....

    Post edited by DAZ_ann0314 on
  • edited December 1969

    I fully understand DAZ's business decision to primarily.support Genesis because their own software supports it and Poser doesn't. I am not angry, nor feeling personally disenfranchised, but I am sad about it. I used to spend 1000's of dollars a year here. Enough so that I was told by the marketing here that I was one of their top spenders. (They called by phone to do a survey on how I used the models I bought). Like many others here, I have stopped buying from here. I dropped my membership around the time they gave away all the pro versions of their software, which I had paid for. I think they have made some poor business decisions, and I voted my decision with my wallet.

    The thing I miss the most is the ongoing work of some of the most talented independent 3D model makers around. I hope that they don't give up on the Poser platform, to create mainly Genesis content. Of the figure based 3D software, I cannot imagine that a new product like DAZ Studio has the majority of professional 3D artist. So to all the PA's out there, please don't give up creating content for those of us, who did not choose to adopt the new Genesis platform.

    As many here have stated, I think we are going to have to choose one platform or the other. If for no other reason than cost.

  • surrealitysurreality Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Definitely look into something that can recolor the site. It takes a few minutes to set it up, but it's very worth the time. If you go from the main forum page, you should be able to get the whole forum covered that way. (The white white white was kicking me into epic eyestrain, and then full-blown migraines if I looked for long, so I genuinely empathize with the folks having issues with this.) I'm using 'Color That Site' with Firefox, and I even went the lazy route: I did a lot of 'invert these colors' and then just tweaked the few that were suddenly intensely ugly, and all was well. ;) I've got something more or less black with beige and/or white text for the time being and it's a mercy on my poor, addled brain -- I didn't aim for custom/fancy/exactly to my taste, so it didn't take too long. I look really dumb wearing sunglasses in the house. ;)


    Again, I'm probably not one of the vendors that everyone is clamoring from content from, but I can promise I'm not going to be dropping development for Poser any time soon. Heck, even if I just finish what I have started now I'd have enough releases for the rest of this year and then some. ;) Beyond that, I really, genuinely enjoy working in Poser -- so dropping the part of my work that I find fun? Not gonna happen without in intervention from the bodysnatchers. That's a promise, folks, and you are very welcome to hold me to it; in fact I quite sincerely hope you do, not just through the end of this year, but in years to come. So long as people are using Poser, I'm probably going to be using Poser, provided my hands are still attached and my eyes are working as eyes should, and when it comes down to it, I just really, really like making stuff for it.


    I'd also really like to thank the folks in this thread for keeping it very civil and respectful. I think that's given a lot of us the chance to express ourselves -- customers, DAZ staff, PAs, and even innocent baffled bystanders -- in a very genuine way that isn't always possible when people have their claws out. That, in itself, is a very positive and encouraging sign, even if not everyone agrees about everything. It's pretty much the best we can hope for: to express the reality of our situation, and hope folks out there 'get it'. I know that even if I'm not often posting, I've often been reading through the past couple of years -- not just here, but on Renderosity and RDNA's forums as well. The enormous thing I take from the various conflicts and stresses is that this market's population, in all of its forms (again, be it customers, freebie makers, vendors, brokerage staff members, moderators, and so on) continues to care greatly about its continued existence, no matter how 'small' we are in the grand scheme of things or compared to some other hobby markets out there. Someone very close to me and I fight almost as often as we get along; we argue and bicker and sometimes nit-pick each other to pieces over the tiniest of things, but in the end, it's because we actually care. It's easy to lose sight of that in the heat of any given conflict, but it is valuable to remember, whenever possible, that if nobody gave a damn, there would be nothing at all to argue about in the first place. It would all instead be met with a shrug, and we'd be moving on to something else. :)

  • Satira CapriccioSatira Capriccio Posts: 523
    edited December 1969

    I'd used Color That Site with Firefox, but I now use Chrome.

    So ... I looked in the Chrome store and found Stylebot ... which allows you to override the css on a site.

    The first thing I did was to make the text bold! As that helps a whole lot. It didn't take all that much longer to figure out how to use it than it took to figure out Color That Site, but it seems to give more control than I remember with Color That Site.

    Now to see if my eyes are happier.


    Definitely look into something that can recolor the site. It takes a few minutes to set it up, but it's very worth the time. If you go from the main forum page, you should be able to get the whole forum covered that way. (The white white white was kicking me into epic eyestrain, and then full-blown migraines if I looked for long, so I genuinely empathize with the folks having issues with this.) I'm using 'Color That Site' with Firefox, and I even went the lazy route: I did a lot of 'invert these colors' and then just tweaked the few that were suddenly intensely ugly, and all was well. ;) I've got something more or less black with beige and/or white text for the time being and it's a mercy on my poor, addled brain -- I didn't aim for custom/fancy/exactly to my taste, so it didn't take too long. I look really dumb wearing sunglasses in the house. ;)
Sign In or Register to comment.