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I had one person flat-out state that he just doesn't like CGI art for his books.
I can dig that. It's a style or stylized thing.
There's also a tradition for how books (covers/illustrations) usually look.
And for many things, resources or budget decide the medium. And it can look low-budget when you use digital work in place of...analogue - for lack of better wording.
Some things that do not exist, sure, but if it's a murder mystery, maybe a real (or photoreal) picture of a knife nails it and 'how close does this image look like the real thing?" becomes a distraction.
CGI then, should be about the creative composition and maybe the blade reflects something - and then you sorta have the point of much of the CGI decision.
Expense and Ease -usually linked and then the circle starts all over again. Why "Fake it" and what was the benefit?
Well, what frustrates me is that my 'cgi' runs a lot of ground in terms of style.
I mean, check out my portfolio: http://willbear.deviantart.com/gallery/57434107/Portfolio
But people have a preconception of what CGI must look like.
I had another author get snotty to me about 3D art last fall. She was whining about not being able to find the stock photos she wanted for a book cover. I suggested DAZ, since I'd had the same issue a year ago and that's what led me here. She told me she didn't like stuff that looked "posed" and "fake." Whatever.
Then a few weeks later, I came out with my first book cover, using only DAZ and Photoshop, and blew her away. Ha. Sometimes seeing is believing. People make assumptions until they realize what can actually be done.
I never think of Poser any more. Most people I know never understand what I do with 3D art. It doesn't matter if it's Poser or DAZ Studio. So I never bother. The thing that gripes me most is just how many people still refer to DAZ Studio as "DAZ." How many people refer to Adobe Photoshop, Adobe Premiere, etc as "Adobe?!"
It's Daz's (see what I did there?) fault for picking a genric non-name/description for their product.
If Adobe Photoshop was called Adobe Photo Editor.....
People make assumptions until they realize what can actually be done.
You basically have to prove your merit as an artist.
Willbear makes great art, BUT it doesn't 'look like poser'.
That filter finish changes the medium to a degree. Or at least fools the eye. It's line art. It's something like watercolor or oil or ...or....
That's going beyond expectations.
They expect the worst of 3-d art.
It's called DAZ Studio, but a lot of users may reference it as DAZ (which is actually an acronym for Digital Art Zone). Yeah, I've been around it long enough to remember the old Digital Art Zone image galleries and wiki site. I usually reference the entire name and version as keywords when I post an image elsewhere so folks know what I used, as do others I know that use it.
In the hands of an artist, these tools create Art. Simple as that. Learn your craft, experiment, practice, develop your talent. Put in the countless hours and anything is possible. There is exceptional CGI art all over the net. The tools don't matter, it is the talent using the tools that makes it great.
I'm pretty much in "hobbyists" section i have much to learn yet, still...
Sometimes i disregard using backgrounds with my daz renders not because i can't/don't know how, but because i purposedly not very like idea of it... i mean, in my eyes nearly always backgrounds doesnt fit with main figure at all - perhaps because of questionable contrast between high-tech Victoria/Michael etc. figure and 3d background which have less details and everything.
Also i'm personally no really into "making scenes" though i respect those who can and do them amazingly, but for me more fitting would be some nearly abstract backdrop which is neutral so you use it for your "virtual photo studio" purposes.
Keep in mind, though, that Non-Photorealistic Rendering is it's own subculture/community/enthusiasm boat etc. It's not always "faking" but often "doing for fun/because i like this exact technology". You know, when i was graduating from school i made a short animation movie, where i used videogame engine modding tools, blender, Poser and videoediting software; I created scenery using level creating software for that game engine (it was basically more primitive version of 3d modelling), then i used in-game effects for post-processing (fog, bloom, etc); in blender i did some object whcih then in poser i mixed up with character (like having pyramid instead of head etc); then i used Poser for animating some characters movement while also having screenshots of in-game pics of created by me scenery, and on top of that i used that sketch shader or how it is called. Then i had final cut in moviemaker or smth. Since then i got interested in NPR, so when i returned to this hobby in form of DAZ i gladly bought MangaShader etc. Yet before that i had some IRL experience with traditional drawing... In my head they are not rivals (unless you use some really crazy simulation but high-end advanced simulations of watercolours which imitate every physical process involved etc are hard to get and much more expensive then your typical daz/poser plugins).
Why does it have to be called "Art"? It's fan labor. It's what fan of those games do for fun and enjoyment* - silly crossover pics, comics, stupid/pretentious poses etc. The problem in putting results on DeviantArt? Well, perhaps. In my take, it's just DA comfortable enough file hosting for both galleries and communities themself, where enthusiasts unite.
*though i must note that "craft of beautiful screenshotting" also exists on it's own (check DeadEndThrills etc.) and has nothing to do with your typical xnalara fanfiction mentioned above, no (well, obviosly they serve different purposes).
**and modding/creating custom content is it's own tier, which often leads to actual game development from scratch.
At some point i thought about temporary retiring from DAZ3D to Sims 3 custom content/modding community for some reasons... Character editing possibilities are improved there if you use custom made dials so it's not as primitive as in vanilla version + (no offense, but) i got kind of tired from mainstream of what daz content makers suggest in products while i found refreshing and interesting things among Sims user made content regarding clothing etc. Mostly korean/japanese-inspired fashion etc. etc.
I would say it's pretty difficult to make good nude-related "art" in general, whether it's photography or 3D (or drawing?), so most of it is just, well, "pretty naked people omg" and nothing more :) I don't feel like having right to discuss it seriously, but it's not good how it impacts overall poser/daz/etc perception in eyes of others, and sometimes people won't care if it's some fetish quick picture or something with more work spent.
Also this... DAZ/Poser has so many different uses for so wide categoried of people, with so different end results.
Bad reputation problem again, like with DAZ/Poser content; now some fire: you may know that actually good dramatic movie/anime can also have bits of ultraviolence or orgy in it, yet... It's complicated. Twin Peaks is pure gold for A or nonsense trash for B.
For a long time, I stayed away from Daz and Poser because of the majority of the art I saw created with these programs. I used to refer to Poser as "soft porn creation tool" because when I visited the company websites and other fan websites, I was practically overwhelmed by the number of Victorias in sexy clothing and poses with her boobs hanging out. It found it a little creepy, so I decided this software wasn't for me. Even now, I see wonderful creations by artists like Dreamlight marred by scantily clad women strolling along his beautiful Italian streets. I mean, how often in real life do you see a woman in a string bikini (outside a beach) or cutoff t-shirt? In the Daz / Poser world, this is how women always dress. Poser art has become equivilent, in my eyes, to art that looks like it was created by a teenage pubescent boy.
It wasn't until I moved to China and filmmaking became so difficult (talent and language gap), that I considered Daz figures as a replacement for real actors. Daz figure technology is a dream. In my opinion, they are mostly underutilized as a fetish doll Disneyland for people who like to create their own special kind of porn. Am I being too harsh here? Well, when I visit the Daz marketplace and see that the underwear, lingerie, hyper-mini skirts, and other skimpy clothing far outnumber the types of clothes I normally see women wear in real life, I have to call a spade a spade. PA's design clothing that will sell. Apparently, clothing that doesn't reveal the naughty bits of Victoria isn't very popular. I get it, the nude body is beautiful. I agree. But the art that is generated from Daz/Poser seems to be disproportionate to what I see created in other software. Thus, there is a stigma attached to "Poser art". Just my observation.
to drzap's post
^yeah, most of clothing products in pos-daz'er sphere is either "very sexy" or "too generic", it's harder to find something more unique and/or "normal". That's what i meant when i talked about Sims 3 modding scene where, despite having similar fetish "problems" too (then again i m not 100% against, just tired of too much) they also have great and original content being made by enthusiasts which sometimes outshines what i usually see in market for DAZ in terms of creativity? style? i don't know. (and you may disagree with me about those korean fashion/hipster youth/whatever being beautiful :) )
Maybe because daz vendors make what sells more while TS3/4 modders do it as passionate hobbie. I also don't know gender ratio though.
p.s. or if we go away with comparison to videogame content -> is it me or i can't find clothing in style of what IRL they sell in Pull&Bear, Mango etc. etc. etc. for DAZ?
p.s.s
and don't have us started on significant smaller content for male characters :D
I dunno, I've always found the derogatory attitude towards people because they don't meet some "ideal" of how people are supposed to be kind of sad. Apparently we should always listen to classical music, we should all be talented artists, men should somehow ignore the fact that the vast majority think that sexy, scantily clad women are awesome, we should only use Poser to make images of what somebody else thinks is appropriate....
People, in general, aren't that way. Did you ever notice who the most popular Youtubers are? Hundreds of millions of people around the world watch youtubers who just sit there playing video games. A good portion of the top 20 youtubers do that...play video games while people watch. They enjoy it. So should we be derogatory against them because they're not making world class artwork instead? Well, you can, but it's not going to change anything. Just like it's not going to change the fact that the vast majority of men love sexy, scantily clad women. And most people on this planet just aren't world class artists and never will be.
It's sad that people need to knock others like that. Maybe it's just to feel better about themselves, I dunno. But I've learned that the best response is to ignore them. Because it doesn't matter what they say. And they're probably the same people who go home and watch Pewdiepie playing video games.
I don't think it's nudity that puts people off Daz/Poser, it's the incredible narrowness of subject matter. Go to other galleries of painters, photographers, sculpters, or even Blender, Maya, or Max users and what do you see? Scantily clad women yes, but also children, men, old people, toons, funny animals, landscapes, historical scenes, low poly, nonwestern cultures, abstracts, still lifes, and etc. Some of those kinds of images are created by Daz users but relatively few.
The skimp wear created by vendors is a lowest common denominator that crosses boundaries and is easy to understand, so the vendors profit. But in profiting they've/we've created a "look" that's the art equivalent of the Spice Girls or Pussycat dolls, popular but short lived and forgettable. To the OPs original statement, the Daz look is no different than the Poser look, it's just a bit more polished.
On second thought, what other engine is there? Either it looks like Poser or a video game engine.
Unity or Unreal (I think those two are basically....it.)
I'm not sure what other product someone COULD name.
Every other tool that *might get mentioned, I never even heard of until I started using Daz.
Let's be honest. Most people don't really care about that stuff. What do people do for hobbies, or in their time off? They play video games or get on FB with their friends and watch videos of cats playing the piano. How often do we say to ourselves "wow, I'd love to see a nice landscape foto, or some National Geographic fotos of nonwestern cultures, or some wonderful still lifes"?
We can wish everyone was this ideal scholarly intellectual, but it's just not the case.
Again, you can refer to "skimp wear" as the "lowest common denominator", and wish people didn't think it's awesome, but that won't change things. Obviously many zillions of people love the "art equivalent of Spice Girls or Pussycat Dolls" whoever they are.
Also keep in mind there are a couple other factors that come into play: Cost, Functionality, and Ease.
Professionals who make a living at this stuff can generally afford expensive software, and also NEED highly functional software to do their work. Which is why they might gravitate to Maya, etc. And they also generally have to do highly customizable stuff from scratch, not just drag and drop and hit render. They have to build hugely complex characters and special rigging and so on. There's no way a Pixar is going to base it's next main character on a G3, or anything close.That's NOT what D|S or Poser are for. That's probably why folks who use "professional" software tend to be professionals who need it and can afford it, and are highly skilled and talented and therefore the post more artistic and talented stuff.
D|S and Poser attract people who don't need highly customizable stuff, don't want to build complex stuff from scratch, and who want inexpensive stuff. They want to relax, drag and drop some characters, add some clothes, hit render, and have fun. It's relatively easy, it's quick, and it's fun.
So yeah, almost by definition, D|S users are those who want something quick and easy and doesn't require a lot of work, you can get great results in a short time, but it's not really customizable stuff. Heck, you can't even make a simple model in D|S.
Of course there are exceptions, professionals who use D|S and whatever else. But anyone who expects to see world class works of art coming out of Poser or D|S might be disappointed. Just like anyone who expects the vast majority of people on the planet to use youtube for lofty educational or artistic purposes might be very disappointed.
In other words, DAZ and Poser artists are the Beverly Hillbillies of the fine art world.
Don't troll me, basically those are his words, not mine!
I wasn't aware that the majority of DAZ and Poser users are even IN the "fine art world". I'm a hobbyist, and I'm not even close to the "fine art world". I don't have the talent, I don't have the desire, and I do stuff for my own enjoyment. I assume most other DAZ users are in the same, or similar boat. If someone thinks it's bad that I'm not trying to be DaVinci, then I'm sorry, but I really don't care.
It is possible to do, if you visit the right websites. As much as I like deviantArt, I find that it's not always the site to go to for really good stuff unless you know which groups to search for. And I suggest visiting the Dreamslayer Artworks site this month...
Taking a look at work from Stonemason, MEC4D, and this: https://www.daz3d.com/iyo-matsuyama-castle-new-version , just to name a few of the great models produced by this community, and I can think of no other word than fine art. But I get your concept and mostly agree. Daz has made 3d figure rendering so easy, that most people here are just like kids playing in a sandbox. So Daz Studio isn't respected (in the digital art world) as much as other softwares.
Feel free to produce some world class fine art with D|S, present it to the fine art community, and prove them wrong.
DeviantArt has some of the finest Daz art I have seen. Granted, most of it is low brow cheescake stuff, but the artistry is often top notch and have served as inspiration for me.
The CryEngine or what it's known as at Amazom licensed free version, Lumberjack. Those are game engines too. That's actually supposed to be the prettiest renders but the most difficult to set up & use.
I don't know what DAZ 3D has planned for their SW's future but rendering-wise they have very serious, well funded, and popular competition.
Keep in mind that it's not "just easy". Surely 3d modellers who do from scratch do hard work. But making custom dial characters morph, especially imitating somebody like actor, isn't "easy" either, even if both cases are on different levels of complexity.
And, finally, "dude if you just use bought morph with bought light with bought pose" etc., it's still laughable to see hate it gets because... This content is sold for that, lol. So other users use it.
Some of the artistic gems in the the Gallery section here are simply great Art. Tools do not define artistry. Talent does.
https://www.daz3d.com/gallery/#?sort=likes
This, or something like it.
I thoroughly enjoy the creative process especially when I discover something I didn't know along the way, but somewhere in all of it for me the end goal is to turn the efforts into money, whether I'm practising something I already know, learning something new or just re-vamping an old 3D product to save on future expenses. Admittedly, I see myself as an illustrator rather than an artist (but the idea of myself as a 'fine artist' does at least give me a good laugh :) ) - the people I sell to just need good images from me, not the second coming of the Mona Lisa, and anyone who does had better be thinking of paying accordingly (and waiting for a very long time!).
Those crying 'Poser!' aren't the people who were ever going to buy from me, either because they're doing what I do with something else anyway or have no need of what I'm offering because they're just making their own images for personal use. Most of the people I sell to have probably never heard of Poser or Daz Studio - they just need a decent image. In short, I'm not the least bit interested in the opinion of anyone who thinks I should be sitting here with a pencil and a bit of paper or whatever. The only views I'm bothered with are those of people who do what I what I do and can help me get better at it, which I think is pretty much what most of us do on here. If the 'Oh, but it's Poser!' crowd have nothing constructive to say then they can go and whistle into their paint boxes.
Great stuff! If that's not fine art, I don't know what is.
No question there are talented people associated with D|S and Poser. No question.
Just keep in mind, in the cold hard light of day, if you can totally forget about the awesome technology that allows you to make renders that look like photorealistic humans and architecture and landscapes...
Nobody cares about the technology. Nobody even knows what Iray is. Nobody cares about those awesome reflections and shadows. Images have to impact them emotionally and tell a story.
Ask yourself, if you showed your favorite awesome renders to a fine art critic, or even anyone on the street, would they say "Okay, it's a photograph of a woman. So what?". Or "It's a foto of a living room. Should I be impressed?".
And I think that now that anyone with a computer and internet connection can download free 2D and 3D software, and post their results on the internet for the world to see, the bar has gotten much, much higher. And impressing people is hugely more difficult.
Just one more reason not to expect the D|S and Poser community as a whole to stand above the crowd. I'm not saying it can't be done, but for the average user who may not even want to be in the race, I think assuming they should be top tier artists might lead to disappointment.
Either you didn't take a look at the link to the gallery or you are not an artist. Most of the "art" produced by users of Daz Studio I would categorize as "practicing". But the top 1% are producing art of the finest quality. True art is a form of communication. It has a message or a story and an artist can condence that story to a single image. I don't get the indication you are an artist because you don't speak like one, so maybe you can read these words, but you won't get the real feeling. Several people wrote in this forum that Daz studio saved their lives. What they mean is if they couldn't express what was inside of them, they would die. For such people, producing art isn't even a conscious choice, it is an imperitive, like eating and sleeping. This may seem melodramatic, but it is a feeling only an artist and enthusiasts can understand. For such artists, Daz Studio is their saviour. For the rest of you, it's just a cool, shiny toy.
The topic of the thread was the belief that Poser/D|S people are treated with some condescension in the art community. I gave some reasons why. Whether D|S means a lot to some users is somewhat irrelevant isn't it? I love it too, it's great fun. You can treat us like children who play in a sandbox and love our shiny toys, and that's the point of the article. People looking down their noses at others. I merely gave some reasons why people do that.
@ebergerly
"D|S and Poser attract people who don't need highly customizable stuff, don't want to build complex stuff from scratch, and who want inexpensive stuff. They want to relax, drag and drop some characters, add some clothes, hit render, and have fun. It's relatively easy, it's quick, and it's fun. "
Are these not your words? I merely summed up what you said. We are in agreement: Most Daz users don't care about making real art.
I've still read nothing insulting about Poser and DAZ art except in these forums. Even in the notoriously catty game engine forums the worse I hear about DAZ and Poser are the models are far too high poly to use in game engines. The one time I did hear of Poser/DAZ models as being said to be inferior in such a forum that claim was quickly debunked by a poster showing examples of AAA games from huge game studios that used Poser/DAZ models in their game; LOL, and managed to make them look awful but still better than the game studio's bespoke models! LOLOLOLOL
Sure some of the DAZ/Poser art is good and some is mediocre and some is bad but it's almost always down to lighting and textures and posing not working for the most part and hardly ever do to bad geometry.