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...I actually received some very good compliments from a group of CG artists during a presentation a couple years ago where I showed a sampling of my work. My digital portfolio (which was put up on the large wall flatscreen) was mix of toon, realistic, and illustrative styles, all done in 3DL (this was about a year year before Iray). When I mentioned afterwards that I didn't work in programmes like 3DS, Maya, C4D, Photoshop or even Blender, but the likes of Daz, Carrara, Hexagon, and GImp, they were surprised.
...ahem, I spent nearly a half century, most of my life in traditional art, primarily drawing and painting though I also dabbled a bit in sculpting and photography as well. I used to create pencil drawings that looked like B & W photos and paitnings that almost looked like they were about to come to life. As I grew older the chronic athritis I suffer from became worse unto until it finally became difficult to hold a pencil or brush steady for even a short period of time anymore. I could no longer get the depths I used to with graphite, nor the delecate layering create almost luminous effects in my paintings. When I came across Daz I thought, "wow, someone answered my wish and created a CG programme form the artist's rather than programmer's perspective".
I have been at this for nearly a decade now and still find myself having to relearn what used to come naturally to me, like creating skin tones with depth, hair with body to it, using morph utilities to fine tune and create characters I used to be able to draw with ease. It also meant becoming more savvy about the technology and staying on top of the curve. Pencils and oil paints, paper and canvas hasn't changed very much over the last century or two, but computer technology. .Crikey since I started this we went fron Gen 3 & 4 to the fourth iteration of Genesis, from 3DL and the basic Daz lights to Uberenvironment, to a photo real render engine in Iray. it's like I feel I finally am settled with one figure generation and suddenly an entirely new one gets dropped on us.
The tough part is, to keep up with all of it takes money, more money to make the new generation of figures/characters as useful as the previous on as well as to upgrade hardware to meet the higher software demands every few years. Yeah, paints run out, pencils wear down, paper and canvas gets used up, But it all tends to remain pretty much the same as it always has been. There is no "Cadmium Blue version 5.0" that is better than "Cadmium Blue 4.2". New canvas will support old paints with no conflicts. One needs not worry about a sheet of Bristol crashing.in the middle of a complex drawing because of the high amount of graphite on it..
In many ways even though I have been at this for several years I still feel like a beginner because there are so many more technical aspects involved that I never had to worry about with brush or pencil in hand.
The word 'poser' first got used to mean something 'not good' with Holden Caulfield, the protaganist in the book "The Catcher in the Rye". What do they teach kids now dazes?
It's a hundred years older than that, having frequently been used in describing Wilde, Whistler, and Shaw.
People see "Poser Art" because that's probably just what 99% of amateur renders out there looks like. Poorly posed, store bought generic figures that you see in everyone's renders with the same store bought outfits everyone else is using with gravity defying fabric because Daz can't do dynamics (except from 1 vender) with the same weird looking store bought hair that everyone else uses with poor lighting and store bought generic backgrounds that everyone else bought. Basically if your renders looks like "Poser Art" then people are going to see "Poser Art".
It doesn't matter if you're rendering with Blender, Maya, Daz, or Poser. Poser, being the first inexpensive hobbyist 3D software established the gold standard of what crappy 3D artwork looks like. "Poser Art" is just the word for bad 3D.
So it really comes down to your render. If you don't fall into the same cliched pitfalls that so many others have fallen into and don't make "Poser Art" then people won't see "Poser Art".
It's the same way that people see "Deviant Art" when they see some poorly drawn anime crap. It's not that having a Deviant Art account makes you a bad artist. It's not that there isn't fantastic art posted to Deviant Art. It's that 99% of the artists on Deviant Art are amateurs who draw poorly drawn anime. So when people see a poorly drawn anime picture they call it "Deviant Art" no matter where it is they see it.
In the end nobody really cares what program you use to create your 3D artwork (other than software fanboys who won't shut up about how all software but the software they use sucks). If you make a bad render it's going to be called "Poser Art".
There should be another thread about things to avoid to not be labeled as " bad Poser-Art" .
I look at the gallery and often like the colors and scene composition of poorly rendered or poor posed art even if it looks toally amateurish although I have no ideal what I will like or not, it defies genres or purposeful methodologies.
Some calling the DAZ and Poser renders 'Poser Art' doesn't bother me, they may not even mean it insultingly. It is 'Poser' art after all in a tecnical slang genre sort of shorthand.
I used to participate in a moderated Photoshop website that had a Cliche List. It included subject matter and stylistic issues that would have otherwise overrun the gallleries (such as Star Wars, Harry Potter, certain celebrities, etc). If you wanted to post in one of their contests, you couldn't violate that list. Every now and again, to let members blow off steam. there would be a special Cliche contest where that specific cliche would be allowed.
Serious art as an avocation requires work, patience, learning skill.
A lot of people don't care, they just want to make cool pics. Lighting, composition?? Meh
Conflict ensues.
A lot of people don't care, they just want to make cool pics. Lighting, composition?? Meh
You chime in with this thought a lot. How do you know that?
Or is it- (too) easy to SHARE people's (early) artwork?
Or are People looking in the wrong place? --- for this mastery level of art?
Like WHERE are you being assaulted by all this poor art?
In my humble opinion, I think we mix being "able to find bad art" with "A lot of art is bad".
Between all my social media sites and extensions like the Daz Gallery and Deviant Art or a Google search or....possibly...iStock and similar, where is all this bad art that's ruining reputations?
Even if you sort through the Daz Gallery, there's only one sorta-clunker for every 15 pieces. And the clunker ain't bad, you can just tell, they just installed Daz and are happy just to be rendering something.
I was around before the internet(s) and before bandwidth was hardly a thought.
I also didn't widely share my first anything - and I wouldn't truly submit it as my finished effort.
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I will admit, I have only seen 1 person. 1 person ever who has a gallery of a 100+ renders and the last one, looks just like their first one.
And I actually was curious about that. Like, how is that possible?
But even the best vendors on here, if you go backwards through their catalog have some primitive products.
The best 3D artwork I have seen on the internet is from people involved with 3D/digital/CGI work for movies and have (long) careers in film and animation.
Extensive conversations with people here and elsewhere where they have said that, avxp.
Also familiarity with people and creativity in other arenas.
Also I've talked to customers who have literally said 'not interested in cgi art because all cgi art looks like crap.'
I think they are wrong, but the attitude definitely exists.
I can't argue with you, there. I agree -- I absolutely know about that.
all cgi art looks like crap.'
But it still doesn't answer the question.
Where was the source of this art and who was making it?
I don't expect an answer, I'm just saying. I don't even have an argument for someone that feels that way.
I also don't think it's my job or responsibility to change their mind. lol
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Side story, which it too tired to tell better.....
Sometimes when I want an honest opinion about something, I say the piece is done by a friend of mine - and I even pepper the conversation by saying "I think it's just okay, what do you think?"
It was rather entertaining to hear someone explain how to create my stuff...to me.
And when I said "I don't think he does that"
He was like "No, I know how this stuff is made, all he did was.....and then......"
Very eye opening.
And the comment is always "That's really good, but anyone can...."
and I always say you can't have it both ways.
A great piece can't be easy to make, but at the same time everybody makes crappy stuff.
Despite Studio's Popularity - covfefe!
*SCNR*
The reason why there is never agreement on what's good artwork is simple: Nobody agrees on, or discusses, what "good" means.
Some people are absolutely certain that amateurish stuff is absolutely awesome. And vice versa. Im convinced most of us hobbyists rate things on how it makes us feel, rather than how it affects others and whether it tells a story, which is what really defines artwork in the real world.
When the company we keep are mostly comprised of fresh newbies or people who may never have more than a casual, hobbyist interest, you have to expect that a large portion of the art you will encounter is stereotypical "Poser Art".
..so true. I will spend a fair amount of time making minor adjustments to poses as body language is also very important to convey feeling. Then there's textures/shaders. Even with SBP3 for example, I still make minor adjustments to the various base and subsurface colours to get the result I want. Morphing? I used to spend weeks, sometimes months painstakingly working with figure morphs and morph resources to create original characters. The toughest project was my V4 teen and child. which took a lot of time, a fair amount of financial resources purchasing different characters that included custom morphs, (as there were few morph resource kits for her save for a couple breast morph and joint bend kits), individually proportioning body regions, and learning how to use DFormers.
Granted the Genesis platform along with utilities like Growing Up and and multiple morphing resource kits have made the process more efficient but not necessarily any easier.
Before I got into this I was worked in the traditional art media which required a lot of patience and dedication. For example try oil painting using the old renaissance masters technique of using "layering" of thin coats of paint to get that depth and soft warm glow, or having to paint shadows cast over uneven surfaces, simulate reflections, refraction, AO, and even SSS all with paints and brushes. Yeah, there was no "rushing" the process.
...QFT.
Before Poser and Daz we had hobbyist artists who never really took an art course past maybe high or even grade school but found they had some basic degree of aptitude and a decent eye for proportions and perspective. A good part of what I had seen back then in amateur community and convention (Sci Fi, Fantasy, Gaming) art shows, pretty much could be considered the "Poser Art" for its day though there was a wider variance of styles as one still had to start with a blank piece of paper or canvas.
In 3D we have premade meshes, settings, and figures so one doesn't have to try to visualise and translate a 3D object/scene to a 2D surface. This is why I find it a lot easier to recognise 3D work for what it is as we all have many of the same sets, figures, and props. For example, one of my gaming message boards I frequent uses a couple of Stonemason's Urban Ruins buildings for their backdrop. I've also seen digital prints at art shows which I can tell were made with Daz figures. even when a lot of attention was paid to detail, textures, lighting, and such.
This is also why I've got into kitbashing, though William beats me to it when it comes to the wild characters he creates as I pretty much keep my "bashing" to props, vehicles, and sets (though in a couple cyber apocalypse scenes I have used robot parts for cyber limbs).
For me, this is a hobby. It might be important for some people to consider themselves as artists - some clearly are - but for the rest, whatever makes them happy is all that is important. I get fun out of creating scenes from my own fantasies, be they dramatic, comedic, erotic or just plain old every-day type situations. Invariably, I look at the finished product and see what I could have done better so I move on to the next and ignore the finished one, eventually deleting it because it fell short of the goal. They always do fall short and they always get deleted evntually. I don't put them out there inviting criticism or praise, they are personal. The fun in the hobby is in the doing and I often can't wait for one to finish before starting another.
Enthusiasm for most of my past hobbies has usually burned away in short order but I've been tinkering with this one for more than 10 years. I'd love it if the technology caught up with my expectations so that the physics, dynamics and animation possibilities were sophisticated but it does improve slowly which keeps me interested.
It doesn't really matter hobbyist or former art student, 'Poser', pencil or oil paint, if one tries to improve with every work he's making then sooner or later he'll start to make art, if not - he will produce crap endlessly.
I consider this a hobby. I tried to emulate my older brother's natural artistic ability in traditional mediums when I was little and couldn't, although I got technically passable creating it with enough practice, I still wasn't an artist. The telling thing was I didn't do anything in that manual art creation world for decades and could not just start doing it again like someone riding a bike a bike again after a long hiatus. However my brother can do that. That's the difference to me, although practically speaking I will not be able to tell the difference between a good technical artist and a good natural artist.
..very true. I've seen some "pros" in teh comic book industry back when I still was into comics who's art was relatively "mediocre" (even for that genre) who never really improved yet cranked the same stuff out over and over. Game books were some of the worst though, as until WotC became involved, most of it was pretty much "small press" operations. Crikey, I remember the first edition of Champions (a Superhero RPG) which looked like it was typed up on an old electric typewriter and laid out by a couple guys in a dorm room.
I still have everything I rendered on s a storage drive and like to go back from time to time to see the change from my early works to now. Indeed there has been a progression though with Iray I feel I'm back at square one again. Ah well that's what keeps me going. Looking at my first attempts at creating the main character for my story, yeah, it's been quite a ride over the years.
Again I remember all the struggles I went through to create original characters from fashion model figures with relatively limited morphing options Egads, Vicky 4s boobs were a total pain to deal with when I wanted to create a young teen, as when I dialled them down too far, the mesh distorted and crumpled which affected clothing fits (I was so thankful for Steph 4 and the NPMs). That experience alone taught me a lot about this new media. Now with that under my belt, I need to focus on surfaces and lighting in Iray which is a whole new experience from 3DL.
When I first started using Poser in 2001 or 2002, a lot of "real" artists in both CGI and the traditional arts would look down their noses at Poser users and say we were not artists. Over the years this has improved, although there are still some who hold us in contempt. What I find interesting is that now there are Poser and DAZ Studio users who look down their noses at hobbyists and beginners and say that we are not "real" artists. Those people use a limited definition of art as "a person whose work exhibits exceptional skill." They tend to ignore the other definitions of artist:
Dictionary.com
1.a person who produces works in any of the arts that are primarily subject to aesthetic criteria.
2.a person who practices one of the fine arts, especially a painter or sculptor.
Fine Art: 1. a visual art considered to have been created primarily for aesthetic purposes and judged for its beauty and meaningfulness, specifically, painting, sculpture, drawing, watercolor, graphics, and architecture.
Merriam-Webster.com
2a : one who professes and practices an imaginative art
Oxforddictionaries.com
1.1 A person who practises or performs any of the creative arts, such as a sculptor, film-maker, actor, or dancer.
None of these definitions require any particular level of skill to be an artist, they just require that someone attempt to produce something which is creative or in an artistic field, such as CGI. It also does not require that the art be liked or approved of by anyone else. It may make some people feel good to claim they are an artist while those less skilled or gifted are not, just as bullies tend to feel good about hurting or demeaning others. I don't really have much I care to say to people with that sort of attitude. Obviously, we all have room to improve our technique and abilities, but that is part of the joy of being an artist. For the people who are being told that they are not "real" artists I say this: if you try to create something artistic, you ARE an artist.
The line between artist and not artist, in my mind, is whether you actually try to learn stuff rather than just faffing about and learning as a result.
Like, do you listen and try to remember when people give commentary on lighting and composition, or do you just go 'eh, whatever. Not important.'
I agree that it is generally a good idea to listen to and weigh suggestions, but it isn't required. If someone decides the advice is unimportant to them and produces art people don't like, they are considered a fool or not a real artist. If they ignore advice and produce art which is popular, they are considered a genius with a unique style. If making their art the way they want to makes them happy, it doesn't matter what the rest of us think of their art.
conformity isn't always a desirable trait in an artist and I don't think listening to others feedback makes you more or less an artist. Some artists have a muse that is more important to them and I respect that. The idea that there are certain attitudes or behaviors that define a true artist just isn't so.
I purposely avoid playing video games or even checking what is listing or reading how-to sites or industry sites on gaming and game making exactly because I do not want to be influenced by any of that as I inch along towards designing games that I want and find interesting. Not demeaning them via avoidance of their opinions and advice and experience, they have their interests and goals and experience and I have mine and I want to use mine to make my game. They are making their games. I don't want to know any the newest genres or monetization schemes or finding an audience or social networking and getting followers or advertising. The games will simply be I wanted to make and that's that.
DAZ & 3D art is a little different though because with games I am a programmer so I know what to do even if it still it's not easy but with 3D art I'm like well still mostly clueless though improving. I certainly know how and where to go to get the 3D art fundamentals done (done for me, LOL), even if those fundamentals have been purchased by me. I am very happy with what I've purchased even if I know practically speaking I won't use hardly any of it because it frees me from the 'I need this or I need that mentality' or the 'if only mentality'. 'If only what?' I have more than I need to do an excellent job in the art of the game and create unique situations in the games. More interesting DAZ products I can use? Buy them. That's all part of trying different art directions and styles until I find what I want. So then I buy this and I buy that and they are very excellent work and I can try those different art styles. The rest of the art direction and style equations that I know that I need to address and that I know that I can't purchase; I will have to accept that I can't purchase that art direction but instead work through the tedium of learning and doing that art for myself or it won't happen. And that's that.
I still wonder whether people are too much invested in the label, "artist"? Does someone who knows all the techniques, knows the science behind lighting and camera settings, knows about composition and colour yet has no vision or flair derserve to be called an artist? I shared an apartment in London with a commercial artist who laughed off the artist part of his job description. He told me that David Hockney is an artist, or Francis Bacon. He, himself, was a technician with certain skills with pen and brush but none of the vision of an artist. Yet when I looked at his work, I was in awe of his skill and I was someone who thought I could draw pretty well. My work was doodles compared to his. So I gave up any lingering ambitions towards a life in art and making pictures has remained a hobby ever since. I have no illusions that it is anything but.
I think the title is far less relevant than the implementation. In the real world, unless you're solely focused on yourself and pleasing yourself, art has a purpose. It tells a story or conveys an emotion. It affects others. And the best art does the best job at affecting others.
I think a lot of the looking down at others is probably pretty legitimate. If "Poser" art is just a bunch of images that does a really poor job of telling a story or affecting viewers, then of course they will look down their noses at it. And with good reason. It's not doing what art should do.
There will always be disagreement about specifics, and what affects one person might not affect another. But it's a subjective thing, so you can't expect 100% agreement. And the world class artistic masterpieces generally affect the widest audience, which is why they're world class masterpieces.
Unfortunately, in every field that requires skill and talent, only a few people have what it takes. That's life. We're all good at some stuff, and not so good at others, and really bad at others. But chances are there aren't any skills and talents that we're incredible at. Just because we might enjoy it, doesn't mean we're good at it.
So the best you can do is be honest and objective about your skills and talents, and accept that maybe you suck at some aspects, and maybe those are the areas you need to learn and improve.
Personally, most of the images I see in some of the online poser-type galleries are pretty poor. And I assume that's because people are doing it solely for their own enjoyment, and don't really care about how their work affects others. And as a result, it doesn't. But it's pretty much guaranteed that when they post it they're pretty certain it's awesome.
I personally like the artwork of artists like Albert Anker and Norman Rockwell but many professional art critics scoff at that sort of art because it's not trying to shock or titilate.