March Madness Vendor-Buyer Etiquette
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Yes; nearly two decades worth, depending on whether or not this has been done from the beginning or not.
Brill. This post is known as a mic drop moment. Loved the whole thing.
Ok well... I can see how the lack thereof might frustrate. But I can also see the reverse, as Im a vendor.
I always list the stuff I use in my PDF's (if and when customers are inclined to read them... I guess thats one surefire way to make the end user actually read a readme lol) Its something I do coz I like to support friends and vendors I genuinely like. I, however, dont always list them on my store page. Because honestly, my store is my own.... and that should not be cluttered with a bazillion other products that Im not selling. It confuses the buyer even worse, and where marketing is concerned, you want to keep them on your page. I would never see a nike ad showing off addidas clothing, not even alongside its own shoes... it simply wouldnt happen.
I think it really ought to be up to the vendor, whether they feel comfortable to do it or not. I in no way want to feel like Im obligated to do that. Contrary, I dont want other vendors to feel like they are obligated to me, either. If I give something to someone, its no strings attached. And if they buy it, and dont credit... I honestly don't even notice. Im not keeping score. I would definitely not boycott anyone over the lack of credit.
Because the issue is simple: Im trying to sell my set - not 30493049039 other sets I may have used to make promos. As are all vendors. That is where the spotlight should be.
If you want to know whats included, thats what the product feature list is for. If they havent listed what they used in their promos, you can always drop them a line and ask, too.
It is worth mentioning that while a vendor may not list it on their store page (for various reasons I think others have covered really well), they may have posted the image in the gallery and listed/linked all the products used there (if its a more artistic rendering showing what they are selling "in use"). If you haven't checked the gallery, it may be worth looking there. I know I do it with my renders...I post the artistic ones to the gallery and then list out every single pack I used.
Greetings,
See, that would be awesome, if the product pages could include a link to Gallery images that used that product. Then the PA could post their fave promo pictures to the Gallery, potentially with a list of associated products, and everybody wins. Especially because it also lets folks see how everyday users use the products.
Feature Request: Put a link to Gallery Images that expressly use a given item, on the product pages.
-- Morgan
It may happen at some point. We will have to wait and see
In the meantime though you can search the gallery by the PAs forum name. So if you search DAZ_ann0314 for instance it will show the promo images I posted from an upcoming product which listed out all the products used: http://www.daz3d.com/gallery/#images/307346/
Sadly, like in the case of that promo, there are so many items used (and some not even in a store at all yet) that it is hard or there is not enough room to list them all on the store page. The Gallery however does have that ability so it is a great resource for PAs and for customers to be able to share or see what was used. Granted the gallery is only for "artistic renders" so any promo art that is a straight promo can't be posted (we don't want to double all the store images in the gallery) Artistic renders though you can do that with. You can also tag the images with various key words etc when you upload as well that can make it easier for people to search for xyz pack and see all the artwork with it but that takes people tagging the images that way. (Sadly it doesnt seem like linking the packs adds those packs as a tag or searchable field on its own so you would have to do it separately - or it doesn't seem to do it..I just tried doing a search to double check and it didn't seem to work)
Hopefully the gallery and store will be more of a "two way street" at some point where not only can you click a link on a gallery product to see the product but you can also go to the store page and see images by others using that product but at this time that is not the case. I'm not sure if that will or won't happen since there may be some complications to it but we may see it eventually. You never can tell
I was all set to buy that cool new ipod, but those meanies at apple were too insensitive to even ID the nifty song they used in the commercial!
well, if that's the way they're going to treat their loyal customers, i'm sticking with my walkman.
j
Sounds like a good idea, if the listed product is clearly seen in the image. But...
I'm not the only one who likes to "kitbash". I have gallery images where I've listed products that I've only used one tiny thing from, and it might even barely be seen. For example, using ear rings from a complete outfit product, but you can barely see them because the hair on the character covers most of them. If I'm looking at that product in the store and it has a link to that render, it would most likely just be confusing looking at the render.
As for the topic of vendors listing items used or not in the promos, I do appreciate when they do, but I don't get upset when they don't. Even if they do a list, it might not always be all that helpful if there's several different promos, as you won't know anyway which products are used in which promos. As already has been said, if in doubt, ask here at the forum!
After 30 years in graphic arts etc. I am lucky enough to have a beast renderer with 2 Titan x 12 GB Pascals, 64 Gb ram, intel 7i-6850K 6 cores, EVGA SuperNova G3 1000 watt, Aus x99 Deluxe II and 2x2TB 960 pro ssd M.2 internal drives not to mention multiple external storage units, so I don't have to wait for overnight renders or sluggish loads. Autofit takes care of most poke through issues so I dont consider them an issue, and obviously I, like some others here, have invested in technology that saves me time ... which is why I hate wasting it.
I think this holds some important points to make in relation to other forms of visual advertisement. I'm not aware of any other forms of advertisements that specifically mention other products used in visual media made to represent the product they're selling.
Doing a search on Amazon for "computer desk" will give you 100s of results for desks which are shown with computer, mice, keyboards, speakers, phones, headphones, printers, game controllers etc sitting on top. Often they'll be shown in an image next to office chairs on top of area rugs with the desk next to a filing cabinet in a room with a window covered with curtains by paintings on the wall. You'll never see them say what these other items are, you'll most likely not see them even say they're not included.
In searches for bedding sets you'll find images of complete beds in fully furnished rooms. I've never known a bedding set to include pillows (pillow cases yes but not pillows) but every image shows them. In many cases they'll even show matching throw pillows that the pillow cases and other covers don't even apply to. They won't say these pillows aren't included or link to them in the description, most they normally do is provide a list of what's included with the product that they're selling (4pc Sheet Set, 1 Comforter, 1 Bed Skirt, 2 Shams).
Every pair of pants gets shown with matching shoes, tops are often shown on models wearing jewelry and holding bags. Books and picture frames you see won't come with the bookcase they're being shown in, entertainment centers won't come with the TVs or DVD players. The reason they do this is to provide customers with a "complete look" that they can achieve with their product in conjunction with others which I don't see as any different than what we're doing with our products. To ask for these additional items to be mentioned I see absolutely no problem with, but to expect or require them to me kind of seems like we're being held to higher standards than other forms of advertisement.
Excellent point.
All this talk comparing other Sold Items and how they are marketed is silly.
Bottom Line : Amazon/ITunes/wherever you shop for digital goods doesn't have this many people confused or complaining about how items are listed/advertised/marketed. You don't say something isn't a problem for your product/store because it isn't a problem for someone else's product/store. That's a plainly ridiculous exercise in being silly for argument's sake..
The amount of grief over this clearly proves there is a problem. That's a scientific understanding, not an opinion.
Either it will be addressed or it won't.
Everything else is an opinion on how big a problem, whose responsibility and why it can or can't be looked into.
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But if we want to continue in circles over this, why not?
If Daz made a guiding rule tomorrow that products with:
VENDOR'S RESPONSIBILITY
'other vendor's items prominently displayed in their promo art needed mention and or links.
No outside products may be used....etc.....
You'd all grumble, get over it and keep cranking out your products
Because it'd be true - if your product SALE is impacted by NOT being able to include someone else's exact product as art - you need to rethink your product.
(Don't be silly, I don't mean textures, add ons or required items - those ARE listed)
- there'd obviously be exceptions for events outside of your control, but that would impact availability.
DAZ'S RESPONSIBILITY
They could, without your help or input place a disclaimer on all figures. FIGURE sold without hair and featured accessories. Check the list below for included items and props.
They could say "Promo art may contain additional items not included with your purchase. Check the list below for included items and props."
CUSTOMER RESPONSIBILITY
Aside from read the fine print (which there isn't at the moment) would be what?
Stick around and figure (no pun intended) it out?
Before you buy, check the forums for threads like these?
Never assume 'what you see is what you get'.
Yeah because I like funny analogies too. So I go in Burger King and order a burger looking at the BIG DISPLAY WITH PICTURES USED TO ADVERTISE THEIR FOOD.[ I think that's a promo pic]. I order a burger and it comes with just the meat and the bun. I say what about all the toppings in the picture? They explain that there's this online store called Daz that sells products and they don't have to include most of the stuff in the artwork in the promotional material. And Burger King deserves a break because they are held to a higher standard.\
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I honestly don't care what the vendor's do. I say leave them out of this. It's nice if they include the names and fantasy level if they include links. Hell, I can type the name in the search bar myself. But Daz SHOULD have some kind of statement. All this round-a-bout over this is foolish. Batteries included, Batteries Not included. Solved.
We list exactly what's included with the product, we don't list what's not included. My point in mentioning other markets is that it's nothing new to be done this way, that new customers coming to the store for the first time have no reason to expect anything different here than what's done in other markets. There is really no reason to assume that something not included in the "What's Included and Features" list is included with the product. Anyone familiar with DAZ would understand this from experience if from nothing else, new customers should understand this because most if not all other markets are based on the same practices. I can't think of a legitimate reason why a new customer would ever expect to recieve something that's not listed as included when it's not something that other markets do.
If I'm buying a burger and the picture is literally just a burger I expect to get that burger. If it's a commercial of a person enjoying said burger I don't expect the burger to come with the shirt and pants that person is wearing. Promos here are the latter example, we don't have a store filled with images of swords sitting on empty white backgrounds. I can't see any sort of artistic community working with cut and dry "product on isolated white" promotions, it will either bore the artist out of the business or fail to inspire the target audience.
Very well put! I think Thornton should hire you. If not for here, for over at Morph 3D.
So PAs could use images as advertising - cool - will they be paying the artists for this.
That would be the best solution, IMO. It doesn't cost anyone any additional time, and still brings across the Information to the new buyers that they should read further down the text to the list. It would be fair to all parties involved.You mean the things already listed in the "What's Included and Features" on every existing store page?
So PAs could use images as advertising - cool - will they be paying the artists for this.
They make the art for free now and um,upload/ add it to their free gallery. So now that the creator links to it, money has to exchange hands?
You could do many things. Offer a discount (or free) for established artists to get your product and render a promo pic.
Could be a simple barter. Get my product x for free and in turn make a promo set for my next release.
- works both forward and backward. Artists can add links to their renders/galleries for discounts back to the creator.
There are so many ways for all of us to work together, it's simple.
--- And I think Beekay is right. Daz doesn't need to involve the vendors, they can do this all on their own.
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There is really no reason to assume that something not included in the "What's Included and Features" list is included with the product. Anyone familiar with DAZ would understand this from experience if from nothing else, new customers should understand this because most if not all other markets are based on the same practices.
May I quote myself: "Stick around and figure (no pun intended) it out?
Before you buy, check the forums for threads like these?
Never assume 'what you see is what you get'.
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You're missing my thread and the post(s) above that specifically talking about models coming without hair, ie bald.
Not -"minus the hair" but BALD. B.A.L.D.
Why would anyone assume that when you buy a figure, it's going to show up BALD. Naked is arguable, maybe. But Hairless?
Especially when the figure is shown in every promo pic with the same hair doo. (it happens)
Sorry, but no one who just installed Daz knows exactly how it all works and better yet how the store works.
I bought this up a few weeks ago and many thought it too difficult a bridge to cross to bundle
Now, on the home page are tons of bundles (figure + hair + clothes) and also a figure and a morph for a figure. All cost the same, but I'm supposed to just instinctively know, as a new user - what comes with what.
Someone is going to buy all those products and wonder why some don't have hair. lol
http://www.daz3d.com/irisa-for-genesis-3-female
This lovely items does not say anything about hair.
And if you analyze the differences between photos. Compare these two.
What's different AS AN INCLUDED FEATURE are the makeup and eyes.
That's the POINT of including these two images.
What jumped out, to me, first was the different haircut. I would have normally assumed those were pics advertising the different haircuts she comes with.
I can't see what the argument is against this. I really don't.
Yes Daz does need to involve the vendors they can't just give away vendor products without talking to the vendors, and no you can't just use peoples images without their consent, most wouldn't mind but some might for numerous reasons.
I'm sorry but I really am having a problem understanding why you find the Whats Included and Features difficult to understand. Take the Irisa product page it doesn't mention hair or outfit so why would you think that they might be included, it tells you that there are makeup options and how many - the same with the eyes.
What? Where did you...what in the ---
Oh I see you misread that. lol
No, sir. DAZ doesn't need the vendor's input or agreement to add a blurb to EVERY PRODUCT LISTING that says "Not all items shown in promo images....check included...ya ya ya listed below"
The FREE part is between Vendors and the artists or general users that create promo worthy art or enlisted to create art for Promotional reasons.
the Irisa product page it doesn't mention hair or outfit so why would you think that they might be included
This thread is going in circles and generating a lot of friction so it is being locked.