March Madness Vendor-Buyer Etiquette
ArtAngel
Posts: 1,962
Considering figures typically arrive bald ... and naked, and scenes/environments can display excluded "promo props" I think it's fairly safe to say, the real appeal of many DAZ products is oftentimes 50% attributed to the additional items used in promo images and 50% due to the vendor stand-alone product.
March Madness is luring buyers to vendors. After buying over 1700 products, I can't tell you how many times I have NOT supported vendors who appear too insecure or inconsiderate to give credit to other artists whose work they utilized in promo images to enhance the marketability of their stark product.
The cons of doing this are obvious. A newbie will probably request a refund expecting that great hair or cool outfit, a seasoned artist won't respect your lack of support and someone like me will boycott you because there are so many great, considerate artists, team players, who make my shopping experience so much smoother.
If you are an artist who on MOST or ALL products lists the additonally promo items used for God's sake, don't be shy, put your link here.
If you are a vendor who hastily forgot to mention promos items why not update your store details and then put your link here?
If you are a buyer and have questions about prop or promo items why not post them here and if someone is kind enough to point you in the right direction support them by at least browsing their store.
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Comments
I don't really agree with you. Pa's aren't obligated to cite products used in their promos and sometimes they can't. Site rules don't allow pa's to cite vendors from other stores for example. If that means losing your business I'm sure they will have to accept that.
I agree Serene Night that sometimes they can't. But when they can I would appreciate it if they would. Some artists do on a regular basis and most, who frequent the forums, will give details when they can. I don't think they are insecure or inconsiderate, ArtAngel, maybe just busy. I know that on Rendo, when they do include the promo credit, they will include items from Daz as well. I think the promos are fantastic and most times I do want to get the items that are used in them. The Daz community is very good at the "guess this item" threads so I don't worry too much when the credit is not included.
It is helpful when PAs list "items used" and sometimes disappointing when it doesn't happen, but I can't go so far as to give a kicking to those who don't list. And I'm certainly not going to hurt my interests (boycott) over it.
The forum is alive with advice on character, hair and outfit enquiries. It's almost fun.
From what I've read, even when some PAs do this, DAZ doesn't always list the products used. It's hard to tell when the omission is because of the vendor or because of DAZ. Kind wrong to boycott when you don't even know the reason the products used in promos weren't listed. Just my opinion.
While it is appreciated, I DO NOT feel a vendor is too insecure or inconsiderate to give credit when they don't.
I've put effort into providing used product lists for my store pages and I can honestly say it's not the easiest thing to do (to the point where I've had some added dread about submitting products because I didn't want to go through the trouble at times). There's been a couple instances lately where I didn't include them at submission under the intention of adding it before things cleared QA only to forget completely until the product was out. So I don't at all blame those that don't bother listing my products or others when they're used.
When your content library has 1,000s of products from over the course of nearly a decade it gets hard to keep track of and often hard to find out which products are what. A lot of products I have don't contain anything in a library context that says the name of the product in a way that makes it possible to do a search on the store for it. There's been numerous times where I've had to look at file names for textures that load for information, sometimes with the only thing to go on being an abbreviation of the vendor's name (in which case I would need to figure that vendor's name out and do a search for their store page before manually flipping through and find the exact product). Keeping track of whether or not you've used things like texture expansions for the loaded outfits can be difficult as well because there's often not much differentiating expansion products from the originals.
If there was a script which took an existing scene and spit out a list of products with URLs I would use it religiously.
The same thing happens on posts in the gallery all the time. It's certainly helpful and appreciated when people list what they used, but not mandatory. Everyone chooses to do things differently. Sometimes half the fun is guessing what someone used and how they did it.
What Dimension Theory said.
Looking at it from the other side, I am always happy if I see my stuff used in other vendor`s promos, it`s just a nice bonus if it`s listed.
From a customer`s point of view, I just don`t dig it when promos are filled with props and it remains unclear if they are part of the product.
Imo if the product is an empty city and the promos are filled with cars and deco that should always be clearly stated right on the image.
Same goes for extensive postwork, e.g. godrays.
OK. Picture this scenario. It is 3 am. You have been awake for 28 hours tying up a product to get it submitted TODAY! so that you can hopefully get paid on it by the mid part of the month so you can get food and stuff. The only thing standing between you and getting some sleep is going through 15 scene files to (optionally) list what items you used in the promos and tracking down the links so you can submit the product. Do you spend another hour, or go to bed?
The people who build the store pages have said it is huge work for trackably minimal payoff to link the credited items on the store page, but if we list them, they will do it. Mostly.
Here's the fact of the matter in a time is money scenario: listing all the products used in promos does not typically generate additional sales in the required quantity to get return on time invested. Yes, that is a lame answer. Yes, it is a fact of life.
Yes, I list everything when I can. Yes, I am grateful when others list additional items so I can shop for them. Yes, the promos should be very clear on what is included in the product, and what isn't. No, not listing additional items does not make one a coward, or not a team player. Sometimes it isn't practical. Sometimes, people need to get some sleep.
Forum PM me at any time if you need to know any uncredited items I have used in a a promo. My response time during the day hours is pretty quick, and I'm happy to answer.
@ArtAngel, I am not a PA, but I render images, and some I post in the gallery. It's not big art, but here's my take on it: When I prepare an image, I go through a lot of stuff. I use skins from different characters, sometimes the eyes are from a different set than the shape, and the skin, and the fingernails. Then, I change the nails, or the skin, or dial in another shape...
You also have 1700 items in your library, so I guess you also know how difficult it is to keep properly track of what you are using in an image. Unless, of course, all you do is render out of the box with 5 items in the scene. When I post in the gallery, I still try to share as much about what I used, but it takes half an hour, sometimes even more to track down each and everything. Some items are from other stores, some stuff is self-made. A scene can have as many as 200 or even more "sources".
That said: The store pages always list what you get when you buy a character. If hair is included, it will list the hair. If a piece of clothing is included, it will list that clothing piece.
It doesn't take much effort to read through the list of what is included.
And because I know just how difficult it is to keep track of stuff, especially if you are not doing just one, but several images, I don't think that PAs are shy or anything when they don't include extensive lists of stuff used. I certainly wouldn't dream about calling them "too insecure or inconsiderate", that would feel absolutely insulting to me. Also, like some mentioned, they aren't even allowed to list stuff that is, for example, sold at Rendo, or at he Hive - and if you follow the "What is this..." threads that pop up every now and then, you will see that many items asked about aren't even sold here. Some vendors use items that aren't even for sale bcause they are self-made (that happens often with some characters used in clothing or hair promos for certain PAs). Then, what?
You work your boycott under false assumptions, because you look at it only from what you assume to be correct/reasons. Yes, knowing what is in a promo image is cool. But if the list is not there, there are reasons. "insecurity" or "inconsideration" are rarely included in those reasons, as the above posts from several PAs also stated. The PAs I've met in the forum have tried very hard to be helpful, and to supply information in threads whenever it is possible.
So, I'm very sorry, but I can't bring myself to boycott a PA just because there's no linking in their article page, or because I didn't read the full description before purchasing something.
the whole reason we buy most this stuff is we can render stuff royalty free without credit
I avoid stuff that needs to be credited as some off site freebies do, like the plague.
I, too, try my best to include what's in the scenes- sometimes I forget due to lack of sleep as DestinysGarden mentioned, other times it's simply due to what's going on in my life. I also have a full time job during the day, so usually it's lack of sleep. The only thing I haven't listed if it's something I've made are Mariposa's earrings-but those are freebies in my art forum thread.
I do try to give shout outs to other vendors, since they were the people that helped me get better in what I do and are great people. If something works great for me, I want customers to know to pick those up, too.
I love when vendors include links for the products they used in their promos, but I'm not going to boycott them if they don't list them. I don't think they deserve that.
And of course, on occasion the PAs will use a promo artist to produce some (or even all) of their promo shots, so may not actually know themselves what has been used.
You might find it helpful to read the text description with the headers in bold that usually lists out the components of the product (and its morphs, etc). It would be just above the "additional products used" credits.
(Edited to reduce snark).
Select random DAZ Original item. Observe complete lack of third party credits. Boycott DAZ.
Cya.
+1 to all the PAs and Mods who answered.
I seriously try to post what I use, but often that list gets edited or deleted.
Secondly, I cannot go back and add that in later. I have no access to the page once it's been created. So, if I didn't do it before, I certainly can't do it now.
I can't agree with the OP where he or she has attributed reasons for why it happens. I have no idea why it happens, all I know for sure is that it does.
I think it is helpful, and personally feel Daz would benefit more from linking other store's products where appropriate; but that is my feeling and have no data to back it up.
I think, that the Oxford Dictionaries word of the year (2016): 'Post Truth' is a great way of explaining this.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/word-of-the-year/word-of-the-year-2016
... And to quote why it is suitable.
"After much discussion, debate, and research, the Oxford Dictionaries Word of the Year 2016 is post-truth – an adjective defined as ‘relating to or denoting circumstances in which objective facts are less influential in shaping public opinion than appeals to emotion and personal belief’."
Is see both sides of the argument exaggerating to make the emotions behind their arguments felt. I appreciate it.
I can dig it. As the OP said, details can be updated later.
And if they can't, a vendor has many options on how to fully describe their product. Most use something.
Here's my anecdote. Last night while cruising through older items, looking for a big discount, I came across an item called "Defender of the Temple!!!!!" or something like that.
It doesn't say whether you're buying a figure, props, a pose, a temple etc...it's just an awesome render of a figure leaping through the air.
ONLY from experience do I know that I need to STUDY that product to see exactly what it is.
Modern products include the props (usually). The gun...comes with the outfit....Look, the newest release the fencing pose product.
http://www.daz3d.com/magna-flux-sabre-poses-for-genesis-3-female-s-and-victoria-7
Comes with the sword! And it says Genesis 3 AND VICTORIA.
Look at the promo pics! Several....examples.... Oh lawd, it mentions both rendering engines...
I had to look up "Magna Flux" to see what it was...
http://www.daz3d.com/magna-flux-for-genesis-3-female-s
And it's not a REQUIRED ITEM.
And the title says POSES.
I can't imagine what more midnight_stories could do to present his product. Great, great job.
Quite possibly, that's what you expect when you shop here and the OLDER products aren't updated or the store wasn't this streamlined in the past.
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In the end there are three sides to this.
Old Buyers/Users - everything is fine, leave everything the way I'm used to it working. I adapted, you'll adapt too.
Vendors/Daz store - we work within these limitations and are doing the best we can.
New Customers - who are still falling for every pitfall imaginable.
And there are too many to name. I don't know how to fix them aside from some kind of major overhaul to EVERY part of this entire Daz system.
And it might be too late to make that big a sweeping change without building a whole new store and/or suffer a massive downtime.
I've only been here 4 months and I see the same issues/problems over and over again.
Sure, after 6 months, I'll probably know enough to navigate the vast Daz sea, but this beginning really hurt. My feelings and my wallet.
Someone just installed Daz and they are joining us during March Madness.
I envy them for the sales and discounts and the wideness of the world they will encounter.
I feel bad for them when they try to use stuff and don't know about the Genesis differences...compatibility....Install Manager...the Library system...
Their C: drive filling up. Black renders. Overnight render times.
Where's my hair? A morph and a figure...?
That figure I bought is naked and bald?! What about the business suit in the picture?
I thought a bought a place? This is only a backdrop?
Why won't these damn heels fit?
Why is his butt poking through his armor?
Wait, why do I have to buy this to use this?
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It's a learning curve for sure. Certainly worth it, but a steep curve and I don't really mean the Daz Software. (that's a whole nother can of worms)
I mean how this whole product/store/discount thing works.
So yeah, you learn to have sympathy for the vendors and also for the new customers who are probably the life blood of Daz. Who else is going to spend thousands?
Yes, respect the elders, the founding fathers who built this place through their faithful purchases and renders.
The money THEY SPENT to assure you have a place to spend yours (and get awesome products to fuel your imagination).
Honor the great moderators and users who post tirelessly- answering the same damn questions every day.
Heap attention on all the artists who share their work and inspire new people to push harder towards that perfect render.
The future user, though. That person is going to pay next month's bills.
A special nod to them.
I've gotten a handle on some things, dealt with some issues and know what to look for (pretty much).
We gotta balance these perspectives. All of us. Keep it realistic when it comes to expectations.
I am notoriously bad at listing products used in promos. I make many variations of potential renders, and I tend to mix and match different products to build the look I want. Then when I upload I go through all the renders I have made and choose which ones I think are best. So by that time I really have no clue which individual pieces I have used.
It is not a disrespect or an intential ommision, I just simply do not know.
I get that it's frustrating when you see a really cool item and you find out it's not listed in the credits. Trust me, I've had several moments like that. But you also gotta remember, people on The Other Site are pretty "bad" about this as well. Are you going to boycott those artists over at those places, too?
At the end of the day, the PAs are not obligated to disclose that information, for reasons that several have stated: whether it be because they can't link to competing sites or simply because they only have so many hours in the day and far bigger priorities than trying to source every single item, lighting, and character used in their promos. It's great when they do list things, absolutely! But to boycott a PA or content creator for not sourcing every single thing in every product they make? Boy, I wish I had your problems if that's something you wanna boycott someone over.
By DAZ?
Comments labeling vendors as appearing rude or inconsiderate when they don't link to products aren't helpful, to put it mildly. And if you look at my post count, many (most) of those are linking to products, with 2-5 links per post. I know what's involved, been doing product reviews for four years now, and I certainly wouldn't judge anyone else for not trying to figure out what product is what, or taking the time to find the links, then do them. It's time consuming too. And bottom line, there's a right and wrong way to ask someone to do something for you.
"I think it's fairly safe to say, the real appeal of many DAZ products is oftentimes 50% attributed to the additional items used in promo images and 50% due to the vendor stand-alone product."
It's not "fairly safe" to make up statistics- ever. No one is inside my head or other forum members' heads- knowing my logic or anyone else's. While I agree (obviously) that packaging is important, cross selling is not the priority of any of these vendors. It's THEIR product that they need to devote their time to- but many do have a mutual collaboration for promotion, or do it because they want to. But vendors may not want to send people off their product page and on to someone elses, each vendor has a different approach and they have a right to decide if they want to cross promote, it's not up to us nor should it be IMO. As DarwinsMishap mentioned, he doesn't mind doing it, and he should be the one deciding. This is basic marketing and networking in the business world.
Excellent point!
That would certainly be very handy!
Vendors are trying to sell their own product. Many are kind enough to provide information on other vendors products. They shouldn't be expected to do free advertizing for others.
I think withholding your support from PAs who don't list the products they use in their promo images is completely irrational and extreme. While I very much appreciate it when PAs list the items they use, and can find it a bit frustrating when they don't, all one really has to do is post a "what outfit is this" or "what hair is this", etc, type of thread here and the vast majority of the time the fabulous members of the community will have an answer for you and help you find what you're looking for. "Boycotting" a vendor or calling them "insecure or inconsiderate" simply for not listing the items they use in the promo images is going way too far, imo. The PAs often work very long hours for very little money - expecting them to go above and beyond every single time to do something that is essentially just a helpful bonus, but a completely optional thing, is just expecting too much, imo.
the name of the catalog on the featured catalogs page is so tiny, i can't read it. >.<
it's a teeny tiny print on the thumbnail. i used to be able to read them, it shrunked.
the name on the catalog more important to me than the thumbnail art on sales promo page.
?
Likewsie.