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Doe anyone here really know the Shader Mixer well?

2

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  • Oso3DOso3D Posts: 15,085

    Even being aware that there might be such a thing is helpful, thanks.

     

  • hphoenixhphoenix Posts: 1,335

    Well, I've given it a couple of hours, and it definitely looks doable.  There are a few issues:

    DS doesn't have an RSL 'blend' brick.....we can emulate it using some color multiplies, though.

    DS DOES have a Fractal_Sum brick, but the parameters work a little differently.  Same with Granite and Clay.

    DS has a 'Reflect' brick, but it works a bit differently than Posers.  Still trying to suss it out.

    DS doesn't appear to have a simple 'bump map' brick.  There is a normal map brick, but not sure how to use it to emulate a bump yet.

     

    I'm not as up on RSL as I am MDL, so doing it for 3Delight is harder than it would be for Iray.  May see if I can work on it some more tomorrow night.

    Any chance you could send me the some test geometry/textures so I can make sure it matches up as I go?

     

  • Oso3DOso3D Posts: 15,085

    There is a Blend brick for MDL in DS, at least.

     

  • mjc1016mjc1016 Posts: 15,001
    edited June 2016

    The bricks you need for adding Bump in RSL...

    And this is Displacement...

    And both...

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  • Dreamland ModelsDreamland Models Posts: 386
    hphoenix said:

    Well, I've given it a couple of hours, and it definitely looks doable.  There are a few issues:

    DS doesn't have an RSL 'blend' brick.....we can emulate it using some color multiplies, though.

    DS DOES have a Fractal_Sum brick, but the parameters work a little differently.  Same with Granite and Clay.

    DS has a 'Reflect' brick, but it works a bit differently than Posers.  Still trying to suss it out.

    DS doesn't appear to have a simple 'bump map' brick.  There is a normal map brick, but not sure how to use it to emulate a bump yet.

     

    I'm not as up on RSL as I am MDL, so doing it for 3Delight is harder than it would be for Iray.  May see if I can work on it some more tomorrow night.

    Any chance you could send me the some test geometry/textures so I can make sure it matches up as I go?

     

    I sent you a PM with a link for the test files.

    Thanks a lot for your time and efforts on this issue.

    Tom

  • Dreamland ModelsDreamland Models Posts: 386
    Dreamland Models said:
    hphoenix said:

    Well, I've given it a couple of hours, and it definitely looks doable.  There are a few issues:

    DS doesn't have an RSL 'blend' brick.....we can emulate it using some color multiplies, though.

    DS DOES have a Fractal_Sum brick, but the parameters work a little differently.  Same with Granite and Clay.

    DS has a 'Reflect' brick, but it works a bit differently than Posers.  Still trying to suss it out.

    DS doesn't appear to have a simple 'bump map' brick.  There is a normal map brick, but not sure how to use it to emulate a bump yet.

     

    I'm not as up on RSL as I am MDL, so doing it for 3Delight is harder than it would be for Iray.  May see if I can work on it some more tomorrow night.

    Any chance you could send me the some test geometry/textures so I can make sure it matches up as I go?

     

    I sent you a PM with a link for the test files.

    Thanks a lot for your time and efforts on this issue.

    Tom

    Would the Mix brick be the same as a blend node?

    Tom

  • Dreamland ModelsDreamland Models Posts: 386

    Who ever reads this that is involved with the Beta for Daz Studio 4.9?  would you please request a [Bump] Brick as well as a [Fresnel_Blend] Brick and an [Image Map with built in Tile controls]?

    I would actually like to be involved with the beta as well. Depending on the reporting system, as I do not have a lot of time to jump through hoops, because of working as many hours as I do...

    Direct contact with programmers would be ideal. Not an every 5 minutes thing but maybe a once a week thing would be more like it, unless there is a thread or forum that the programmers read, then that would be all I need.

    Mostly for program possible changes or modifications, as I have about two pages of suggestions for Daz Studio 4.9 so far.

    Tom

  • Eustace ScrubbEustace Scrubb Posts: 2,720

    For raytracing reflections in 3Delight, you want to use the "Trace" brick and a "Reflect and Refract", both under Lighting/Raytracing in the Brickyard.  For best results I'd plug them into each other and the DS Default Material base node as shown below.

    Basic RSL Raytrace Set.png
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  • Dreamland ModelsDreamland Models Posts: 386
    Eustace Scrubb said:

    For raytracing reflections in 3Delight, you want to use the "Trace" brick and a "Reflect and Refract", both under Lighting/Raytracing in the Brickyard.  For best results I'd plug them into each other and the DS Default Material base node as shown below.

    Thanks for the help, as that makes sense to me. Was not able to get a strong enough reflection in the Shaders I was building.

    Tom

  • Eustace ScrubbEustace Scrubb Posts: 2,720

    You're welcome.  One of the tricks I've used is to apply some Daz Default Shader preset that does what I need---mine or another guy's--- to a primitive and then import the shader tree into Shader Mixer.  Then I look at the node tree and adjust as needed with the fewest possible bricks.

    That's actually the entire Raytrace setup for both my Mephistopolis and Skunkville shaders.

  • hphoenixhphoenix Posts: 1,335
    Dreamland Models said:

    Who ever reads this that is involved with the Beta for Daz Studio 4.9?  would you please request a [Bump] Brick as well as a [Fresnel_Blend] Brick and an [Image Map with built in Tile controls]?

    I would actually like to be involved with the beta as well. Depending on the reporting system, as I do not have a lot of time to jump through hoops, because of working as many hours as I do...

    Direct contact with programmers would be ideal. Not an every 5 minutes thing but maybe a once a week thing would be more like it, unless there is a thread or forum that the programmers read, then that would be all I need.

    Mostly for program possible changes or modifications, as I have about two pages of suggestions for Daz Studio 4.9 so far.

    Tom

    Participating in the Beta builds is just a matter of downloading and installing them.  They are only available through DIM.  They install alongside of any release version of DAZ Studio.  There is no 'bug tracking' we have access to....all you can do is submit bugs to Customer Service here, and the same goes for Feature Requests (like the new RSL bricks you mentioned.)

    I should note that if you know straight RSL, you can make your own custom bricks.   Then submit them to DAZ to be included with the next build/release.

     

  • algovincianalgovincian Posts: 2,664
    Eustace Scrubb said:

    You're welcome.  One of the tricks I've used is to apply some Daz Default Shader preset that does what I need---mine or another guy's--- to a primitive and then import the shader tree into Shader Mixer.  Then I look at the node tree and adjust as needed with the fewest possible bricks.

    That's actually the entire Raytrace setup for both my Mephistopolis and Skunkville shaders.

    It should be noted that when importing a material from the scene, the networks that are created in Shader Mixer will not necessarily render the same as the original. This thread goes into more detail and includes a solution as far as displacement/bump goes:

    http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/57525/shader-mixer-displacement-weirdness

    It has been a while, but if memory serves, there are similar issues for reflect/refract. Again, this example is for 3DL, but the info may be of use. Hope this helps.

    - Greg

     

  • Dreamland ModelsDreamland Models Posts: 386
    edited June 2016

    I would like to steal back this thread and ask if anyone has made any progress on the puddles shader. It is really important to me.

    Thanks in advance for your help and for all the constructive help and tips I have gotten so far.

    Tom

    Here is another image that shows the puddles in Poser. The intersection shader is show here.

     

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  • Oso3DOso3D Posts: 15,085

    My new shader should be able to generate puddles like that, for Iray.

    (Heck, the free version in my sig should do it, and you can try it without, you know, paying anything)

     

  • Dreamland ModelsDreamland Models Posts: 386
    timmins.william said:

    My new shader should be able to generate puddles like that, for Iray.

    (Heck, the free version in my sig should do it, and you can try it without, you know, paying anything)

     

    Hi Will,

    Should be able to do it?

    What do you mean by that?

    Is it a puddles shader that will work in 3DLight?

    The same as my Poser version?

    Are you selling shaders here at Daz 3D?

    Would like to see your store if you do.

    Can you give me a link to the puddles shader as well as your store?

    Tom

  • Dreamland ModelsDreamland Models Posts: 386
    Eustace Scrubb said:

    For raytracing reflections in 3Delight, you want to use the "Trace" brick and a "Reflect and Refract", both under Lighting/Raytracing in the Brickyard.  For best results I'd plug them into each other and the DS Default Material base node as shown below.

    Hi Eustace,

    Can you tell me a little more about why you recommend using both bricks together for reflection?

    Does it have something to do with the amount of reflection I can get from the puddles?

    Thanks for your constructive and kind advice.

    Tom

  • Eustace ScrubbEustace Scrubb Posts: 2,720
    edited June 2016
    Dreamland Models said:
    Eustace Scrubb said:

    For raytracing reflections in 3Delight, you want to use the "Trace" brick and a "Reflect and Refract", both under Lighting/Raytracing in the Brickyard.  For best results I'd plug them into each other and the DS Default Material base node as shown below.

    Hi Eustace,

    Can you tell me a little more about why you recommend using both bricks together for reflection?

    Does it have something to do with the amount of reflection I can get from the puddles?

    Thanks for your constructive and kind advice.

    Tom

    You're welcome!  I could do this all night if I was single and the Lady of the House wasn't waiting on me!wink

    "Trace" does the mirroring.  I don't know absolutely how much the "Reflect & Refract" can handle, but "Trace" doesn't do refractions.  Used on its own, it doesn't (or didn't when I worked out the parameters in DS 4.5 or so) mirror things well.  So I pipe my "Trace" reflections on through, so that their contribution to the Refraction equation (if any:  I don't know how to dissect these bricks themselves) is available to the system.  Refractions are given at least as much coverage in their brick as the "Trace" brick gives to reflections, and you get a nice surface mirroring and internal refraction effect, though the fresnel as such could probably use some work.  I haven't been able to decipher the "Fresnel" brick's use yet, but my plate's been full on- and off-line and I try to keep things simple.  So a two-brick set works pretty well for me.  Be sure to attach image maps to the Reflect Tint & Refract Tint values (or any other values you think might need 'em) if you don't want to always refract / reflect the scene.

    Post edited by Eustace Scrubb on
  • Oso3DOso3D Posts: 15,085
    Dreamland Models said:
    Is it a puddles shader that will work in 3DLight?

     Oh, sorry, lost track of the conversation, my thing is for Iray.

     

  • Dreamland ModelsDreamland Models Posts: 386
    Eustace Scrubb said:
    Dreamland Models said:
     

    You're welcome!  I could do this all night if I was single and the Lady of the House wasn't waiting on me!wink

    "Trace" does the mirroring.  I don't know absolutely how much the "Reflect & Refract" can handle, but "Trace" doesn't do refractions.  Used on its own, it doesn't (or didn't when I worked out the parameters in DS 4.5 or so) mirror things well.  So I pipe my "Trace" reflections on through, so that their contribution to the Refraction equation (if any:  I don't know how to dissect these bricks themselves) is available to the system.  Refractions are given at least as much coverage in their brick as the "Trace" brick gives to reflections, and you get a nice surface mirroring and internal refraction effect, though the fresnel as such could probably use some work.  I haven't been able to decipher the "Fresnel" brick's use yet, but my plate's been full on- and off-line and I try to keep things simple.  So a two-brick set works pretty well for me.  Be sure to attach image maps to the Reflect Tint & Refract Tint values (or any other values you think might need 'em) if you don't want to always refract / reflect the scene.

    Hi Eustace,

    Once again thanks for the help. I am saving the helpful posts into a folder in my favorites and your are in there for sure.

    Your name makes me ask, what part of this world are you from?

    I am in Michigan USA

    Tom

  • hphoenixhphoenix Posts: 1,335

    Rats, had some stuff come up this evening, now it's after 2am.  Can't do any work on the shader tonight.  Got the sample maps so I'll hopefully be able to get the 3DL shader worked out tomorrow evening.  With the block groups others have posted for some of the equivalent functionality, I think I can get it done in one night.  Will be a lot of trial-and-error to get the various parameters to match up the appearance, though.  Will keep you posted, Dreamland!

     

  • xyer0xyer0 Posts: 6,333

    Dreamland Models is coming to Daz! Hooray! This is great news! Welcome, Tom!

    Mec4D (Cath) is extremely knowledgeable about shaders, and she even helped Stonemason tweak his shaders for his Fern Lake Bundle. She visits the forums often. Look her up. Or message her at her site mec4d dot com.

  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 108,067
    Eustace Scrubb said:
    Dreamland Models said:
    Eustace Scrubb said:

    For raytracing reflections in 3Delight, you want to use the "Trace" brick and a "Reflect and Refract", both under Lighting/Raytracing in the Brickyard.  For best results I'd plug them into each other and the DS Default Material base node as shown below.

    Hi Eustace,

    Can you tell me a little more about why you recommend using both bricks together for reflection?

    Does it have something to do with the amount of reflection I can get from the puddles?

    Thanks for your constructive and kind advice.

    Tom

    You're welcome!  I could do this all night if I was single and the Lady of the House wasn't waiting on me!wink

    "Trace" does the mirroring.  I don't know absolutely how much the "Reflect & Refract" can handle, but "Trace" doesn't do refractions.  Used on its own, it doesn't (or didn't when I worked out the parameters in DS 4.5 or so) mirror things well.  So I pipe my "Trace" reflections on through, so that their contribution to the Refraction equation (if any:  I don't know how to dissect these bricks themselves) is available to the system.  Refractions are given at least as much coverage in their brick as the "Trace" brick gives to reflections, and you get a nice surface mirroring and internal refraction effect, though the fresnel as such could probably use some work.  I haven't been able to decipher the "Fresnel" brick's use yet, but my plate's been full on- and off-line and I try to keep things simple.  So a two-brick set works pretty well for me.  Be sure to attach image maps to the Reflect Tint & Refract Tint values (or any other values you think might need 'em) if you don't want to always refract / reflect the scene.

    I did some testing a while back and I think the Fresnel brick is a strength controller, so you'd use it to modulate the output from Trace/Reflect and Refract.

  • Eustace ScrubbEustace Scrubb Posts: 2,720
    Dreamland Models said:
    Hi Eustace,

    Once again thanks for the help. I am saving the helpful posts into a folder in my favorites and your are in there for sure.

    Your name makes me ask, what part of this world are you from?

    I am in Michigan USA

    Tom

    I'm a timezone east of you, but the name's from Narnia.  wink 

  • Dreamland ModelsDreamland Models Posts: 386
    Eustace Scrubb said:
    Dreamland Models said:
    Hi Eustace,

    Once again thanks for the help. I am saving the helpful posts into a folder in my favorites and your are in there for sure.

    Your name makes me ask, what part of this world are you from?

    I am in Michigan USA

    Tom

    I'm a timezone east of you, but the name's from Narnia.  wink 

    Give my regards to the snow queen...  cheeky

  • Dreamland ModelsDreamland Models Posts: 386
    hphoenix said:

    Rats, had some stuff come up this evening, now it's after 2am.  Can't do any work on the shader tonight.  Got the sample maps so I'll hopefully be able to get the 3DL shader worked out tomorrow evening.  With the block groups others have posted for some of the equivalent functionality, I think I can get it done in one night.  Will be a lot of trial-and-error to get the various parameters to match up the appearance, though.  Will keep you posted, Dreamland!

     

    I look forward to your help!

    Thanks a lot!

    Tom

  • Dreamland ModelsDreamland Models Posts: 386
    maxamillion said:

    Dreamland Models is coming to Daz! Hooray! This is great news! Welcome, Tom!

     

    That is yet to be determined. Do you know something I don't know? cool

    Tom

  • jdavison67jdavison67 Posts: 689

    Shader Mixer?????

    I don't believe it exists.

     

    :P

  • Dreamland ModelsDreamland Models Posts: 386

    Believe it!

    I did...

    cool

     

  • McGyverMcGyver Posts: 7,085

    Shader Mixeruppper?... It's like they looked at Poser's Material Room and said "Nooo, that makes it way too much sense... We want to be as vague as possible, but still allow people with degree in CGI to figure it out". Considering how many people came over from Poser, you would think that maybe giving some sort of live material preview would simplify things... But then again... Ah, never mind.  Even Filter Forge's node system is easier to wrap your head around.

  • Dreamland ModelsDreamland Models Posts: 386
    McGyver said:

    Shader Mixeruppper?... It's like they looked at Poser's Material Room and said "Nooo, that makes it way too much sense... We want to be as vague as possible, but still allow people with degree in CGI to figure it out". Considering how many people came over from Poser, you would think that maybe giving some sort of live material preview would simplify things... But then again... Ah, never mind.  Even Filter Forge's node system is easier to wrap your head around.

    I have found it is harder to learn, but that is because I learned on Poser. I have spend about a month every day working in the Shader Mixer and even though it is lacking in a few one to one bricks from Poser to Daz,  I find it is not really that much harder of a material room. It is a matter of learning the terms and what goes where. Best way is just be prepared to spend a lot of time in there, just the way I did with Poser. Trial and error.

    I figure in a few months I will be up to speed. Also I love the fact that the programmers here at Daz actually listen and are always finding ways to make things better, not worse, which in my opinion is the case with Poser. After using Poser for years, I have to say, Daz is sweet! I am actually excite to open the program and look forward to learning something new every day. :-)

    Thanks again to all the kind hearts here that make me feel welcome, and are willing to take time to help me out!

    Here is another view of how the puddles shader needs to end up looking like. Poser version here...

    Tom

    174.jpg
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