Doe anyone here really know the Shader Mixer well?

Dreamland Models

Richard Haseltine said:

Eustace Scrubb said:

Dreamland Models said:

Eustace Scrubb said:

For raytracing reflections in 3Delight, you want to use the "Trace" brick and a "Reflect and Refract", both under Lighting/Raytracing in the Brickyard.  For best results I'd plug them into each other and the DS Default Material base node as shown below.

Hi Eustace,

Can you tell me a little more about why you recommend using both bricks together for reflection?

Does it have something to do with the amount of reflection I can get from the puddles?

Thanks for your constructive and kind advice.

Tom

You're welcome!  I could do this all night if I was single and the Lady of the House wasn't waiting on me!

"Trace" does the mirroring.  I don't know absolutely how much the "Reflect & Refract" can handle, but "Trace" doesn't do refractions.  Used on its own, it doesn't (or didn't when I worked out the parameters in DS 4.5 or so) mirror things well.  So I pipe my "Trace" reflections on through, so that their contribution to the Refraction equation (if any:  I don't know how to dissect these bricks themselves) is available to the system.  Refractions are given at least as much coverage in their brick as the "Trace" brick gives to reflections, and you get a nice surface mirroring and internal refraction effect, though the fresnel as such could probably use some work.  I haven't been able to decipher the "Fresnel" brick's use yet, but my plate's been full on- and off-line and I try to keep things simple.  So a two-brick set works pretty well for me.  Be sure to attach image maps to the Reflect Tint & Refract Tint values (or any other values you think might need 'em) if you don't want to always refract / reflect the scene.

I did some testing a while back and I think the Fresnel brick is a strength controller, so you'd use it to modulate the output from Trace/Reflect and Refract.

Thanks you! Will experiment with that as well.

Tom

Eustace Scrubb

The main thing I'm seeing (and likely others are as well) is that this needs to be a street shader, with a porcedural "water plane" layer calculated into it.  All of the water in the puddles needs to be at one flat level, and the road needs to swell and sink around and under them.  From what I've seen of the Iray MDL shader trees, it might actually be easier to whip up for that render engine.  A stumper, to be sure!

Dreamland Models

Eustace Scrubb said:

The main thing I'm seeing (and likely others are as well) is that this needs to be a street shader, with a procedural "water plane" layer calculated into it.  All of the water in the puddles needs to be at one flat level, and the road needs to swell and sink around and under them.  From what I've seen of the Iray MDL shader trees, it might actually be easier to whip up for that render engine.  A stumper, to be sure!

That can not be the approach as the roads are just one of the materials that can have puddles on them and the puddles need to run smoothly through several material zones.

This shader has to be procedural with a channel for the texture to be inserted.

Tom

Eustace Scrubb

Dreamland Models said:

The roads are just one of the materials that can have puddles on them and the puddles need to run smoothly through several material zones.

This shader has to be procedural with a channel for the texture to be inserted.

Tom

Hmmn!

What I'd do, then, is to apply a mapless water texture to a geometry shell (offset of 0.00), and use displacement maps on the ground and rooftop surfaces that have puddles.  Displacement mapping will lift your base geometry "out of the water" and sink it "into" the same, while the GeoShell acts as both a "water plane" and a "wet layer" across the whole mesh.  But the shell has the same basic geometry as its source mesh, and the water (to which no displacement would be applied unless ripples are needed) must be level and smooth.  If you have Decimator, you might try decreasing the shell's polygon count as well (not having Decimator, I can't say whether or not this works but it seems like it should).

Dreamland Models

Hi All,

I have spent years building models that are as low polygon count as possible, so when people buy my products, they have plenty of room to add their characters to the scene.

So the idea of using shells is not sounding too appropriate for my stuff.

I originally asked if anyone here knows how to convert this Poser Puddles shader to Shader Mixer and so far have had a lot of good ideas but no one showing me a shader mixer version.

I ask again.

Can someone please help me with this shader mixer conversion?

It is the one thing holding me back from producing products for Daz Studio.

I also do not want to go another route than the shader mixer, as I have some models with many many material zones with the puddles shader applied and they need to flow from one to the next seamlessly on my UVW mapping.

Regards, Tom

mjc1016

Your best bet is something like this...

http://www.sharecg.com/v/66637/gallery/21/DAZ-Studio/DAZ-Studio-Shader-For-S.E.Asian-Shields

Are the material zones on a separate UV map or are they all part of the same map? 

Dreamland Models

mjc1016 said:

Your best bet is something like this...

http://www.sharecg.com/v/66637/gallery/21/DAZ-Studio/DAZ-Studio-Shader-For-S.E.Asian-Shields

Are the material zones on a separate UV map or are they all part of the same map? 

Some of my models have over 400 separate material zones all mapped at different sizes so a one to one match is what I am going for.

Thanks any way for the link though.

Really have to hold to making the shader mixer version of my Poser shader.

Tom

Dreamland Models

Here is the shader in Poser once again.

Thanks for any help I can get on making a shader mixer version of this Poser Shader.

Tom

 

WendyLuvsCatz

Have you tried Fisty's water shaders?

mjc1016

Dreamland Models said:

Some of my models have over 400 separate material zones all mapped at different sizes so a one to one match is what I am going for.

Dreamland Models said:

Here is the shader in Poser once again.

Can't be done...at least easily, without making some custom bricks.  For a couple of those Poser nodes there is nothing in Shader Mixer that will substitute. 

Yes, 3Delight can do it...but with a full custom, RSL compiled shader.  Like the Fractal Sum...that would have to be done from scratch in RSL and then made into a Shader Mixer brick...but at that point, it would probably be a faster rendering shader to do the whole thing as a compiled shader.

Dreamland Models

Thanks but no I have not because, I am not looking to make water, I am looking to make puddles, which is a different scenario.

Tom

Dreamland Models

Thanks all, so there is no hope then?

Custom bricks are not hard to make, I just need someone here that actually truly knows the Shader Mixer and is able to construct the bricks for me because as I have said before,

I am very new to Shader Mixer and do not understand the math yet.

I know it has to be possible. I do not want to bother the programmers at Daz 3D unless absolutely necessary.

Tom

Dreamland Models

mjc1016 said:

Dreamland Models said:

Some of my models have over 400 separate material zones all mapped at different sizes so a one to one match is what I am going for.

Dreamland Models said:

Here is the shader in Poser once again.

Can't be done...at least easily, without making some custom bricks.  For a couple of those Poser nodes there is nothing in Shader Mixer that will substitute. 

Yes, 3Delight can do it...but with a full custom, RSL compiled shader.  Like the Fractal Sum...that would have to be done from scratch in RSL and then made into a Shader Mixer brick...but at that point, it would probably be a faster rendering shader to do the whole thing as a compiled shader.

So do you know how to make a custom shader  in shader mixer that will fit the bill?

Tom

Dreamland Models

Under the Textures category there is a Fractal Sum brick.

Tom

Dreamland Models

As for the Fresnel_Blend brick I thought maybe the Fresnel brick and the Mix brick grouped would suffice. Like this.

Tom

 

mjc1016

Dreamland Models said:

Under the Textures category there is a Fractal Sum brick.

Tom

It doesn't work the same as Poser's...I can't remember the diffrences, but it's too different.  The Cloud brick makes better 'pools', especially when run through Clamp and Step brick to drive it more towards black and white.

Without seeing the actual code, I'd say the Fresnel Blend is another dead end. 

So far, anything I've come up with looks more like mercury poured out than puddles of water.

Dreamland Models

mjc1016 said:

Dreamland Models said:

Under the Textures category there is a Fractal Sum brick.

Tom

It doesn't work the same as Poser's...I can't remember the diffrences, but it's too different.  The Cloud brick makes better 'pools', especially when run through Clamp and Step brick to drive it more towards black and white.

Without seeing the actual code, I'd say the Fresnel Blend is another dead end. 

So far, anything I've come up with looks more like mercury poured out than puddles of water.

Thank you very much for trying.

I guess it is time to bug the guys at Daz...

Tom

mjc1016

Here's a slightly different netowrk...

Dreamland Models

Is that a photo?

Looks real!

Time to get some shut eye as it is 5:00 A.M. here...

Tom

mjc1016

That's a 3Delight render...simple plane, with wood texture applied, a skydome and HDR lighting...and the 15th attempt at a puddle shader.  That's the first one that doesn't look like mercury or worse.

Dreamland Models

mjc1016 said:

That's a 3Delight render...simple plane, with wood texture applied, a skydome and HDR lighting...and the 15th attempt at a puddle shader.  That's the first one that doesn't look like mercury or worse.

I am impressed. Are you using displacement on the shader?

I ask because the edges of the puddles look beveled or even rounded over.

By the way, what is your name?

I think the Fresnel_Blend is what was getting me my creamy edges on my puddles shader.

Tom

mjc1016

It's another Mike.

It's Bump, but on that one it is set pretty high.  I usually go to extreme/high values when setting up things to get an idea of how far to push it.  I've got some tweaking and more tests to do, but I think, finally I'm on the right track.

The clouds brick turns out to be much easier to control than the fractal sum and the fresnel is done completely differently.  Now to work on the rest of the surface properties, renaming/categorizing things (that's something Shader Mixer often likes to mess up) and lots more test renders.

Dreamland Models

Hi Mike,

Nice to met you.

Here is my latest attempt at the Puddles shader in Daz Studio.

Tom

Digital Lite Design

Tom,

Sent you a PM.  :)

Dreamland Models

Digital Lite Design said:

Tom,

Sent you a PM.  :)

Hi Kat,

Got it.

Thanks

Tom

Eustace Scrubb

This is looking really good, but I still don't see Mike's puddles on the slick-surfaced cutting board (scale is everything sometimes!) working for large puddles on a street.  The puddles on the board are more nearly the size of the water's meniscus.  They're more like single drops than rain puddles.

I still contend that however one does it, the water "should" occupy a single plane (whether virtual or geometric) through which the pavement portrudes via displacement.  The only other suggestion I have is to ignore geometry-shape altogether (which would look bizzare on anything but a near-level surface) and simply pool and puddle areas of increased reflectiveity, specularity, and thin-layer refraction at IOR=[take your pick based on what you're puddling].  Now that shouldn't be too hard in ShaderMixer (for 3DL at least) at all:  just run a water shader tree into a Mix brick as {Layer} with your base shader plugged in at the {Base} point with a cloud node or puddles map (you might even allow the user to switch between them) as your {Alpha} input.  The Mix output should look fairly like what you have in your Poser render (there seems to be no actual change in surface elevation between the street and its puddles).

Then just make sure that the puddles side of the node tree gives you plausible puddles of your selected liquid.

Dreamland Models

Eustace Scrubb said:

This is looking really good, but I still don't see Mike's puddles on the slick-surfaced cutting board (scale is everything sometimes!) working for large puddles on a street.  The puddles on the board are more nearly the size of the water's meniscus.  They're more like single drops than rain puddles.

I still contend that however one does it, the water "should" occupy a single plane (whether virtual or geometric) through which the pavement portrudes via displacement.  The only other suggestion I have is to ignore geometry-shape altogether (which would look bizzare on anything but a near-level surface) and simply pool and puddle areas of increased reflectiveity, specularity, and thin-layer refraction at IOR=[take your pick based on what you're puddling].  Now that shouldn't be too hard in ShaderMixer (for 3DL at least) at all:  just run a water shader tree into a Mix brick as {Layer} with your base shader plugged in at the {Base} point with a cloud node or puddles map (you might even allow the user to switch between them) as your {Alpha} input.  The Mix output should look fairly like what you have in your Poser render (there seems to be no actual change in surface elevation between the street and its puddles).

Then just make sure that the puddles side of the node tree gives you plausible puddles of your selected liquid.

Thanks a lot I will try your suggestions.