Doe anyone here really know the Shader Mixer well?
Dreamland Models
Posts: 386
Hi All,
I am new to Daz and need help with a rather complex shader for my City Block products.
I can supply the need shader from Poser and a model to work on that is mapped correctly, but have been trying for about a month to figure out the corresponding bricks in the Shader Mixer,
and so far I have gotten close, but not spot on so to speak.
If you truly know the Shader Mixer part of Daz Studio 4.9, then please respond.
I will try to make it worth your while.
Here is a render done in Poser with the Puddles materials applied. The tqarget look of the Puddles Shader.
Tom
AKA Dreamland Models
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Comments
....I am totally stymied by the Shader Mixer as well. The whole UI looks like it was designed by the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
Actually, it's based on Viktor Frankenstein's laboratory apparatus for FSM creation.
http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/25448/list-of-shader-mixer-tutorials-and-recipes-wip-please-be-patient-as-i-update-the-list-thanks
You may want to specify whether you are looking for Iray or 3Delight help. (or both....) There are people who are good in each area. If you look through the store at some of the vendors creating shaders (not just image based preset "shaders") you may be able to contact them via the PM messaging system and get some help that way....
And, in addition, are the puddles something that are actually modelled or are they some random, noise based projection?
Well starting with 3DLight and later on IRay
These are procedural materials with underlining textures that have been specifically UVW mapped to the geometry in the sets.
Here is a look at the shader so you can see if you really can help or not. As seen when loaded in Poser and then after I moved the nodes around so you can see the connections better.
The one on the right is only different because I disconnected the Diffuse Color from the image as it is only there so you can see it in the viewport.
By the way this shader is the simplified version created by Bagginsbill for my Movie Sets products.
I am really liking Daz Studio 4.9 and and keep getting surprised at how well it is built! If I can resolve this one material issue I plan to build Poser products as well as Daz Studio products both for 3DLight as well as IRay.
So please help me get over the hump.
Tom
Thanks for the link, but I am looking for direct help from those who know the (Shader Mixer) tab, as I have already spent over a month on this one shader and there are hundreds of shaders in my City Block Sets.
Tom
The shader network you posted doesn't look that complicated. The biggest issue is that not all blocks behave the same way between DS and Poser (even when they have the same names.)
Though I think it is a bit different from how I would implement the 'desired' effect of 'puddles'.....I'd want to have actual displacements applied to the road/surfaces and use a 'water plane' to 'fill' them in with. Though I know that's a bit more troublesome, as some of the geometry probably isn't connected as a single surface, so multiple displacements would be involved. Though the displacement map would be pretty simple to do.
One could even do it as a procedural displacement, or several other ways.
But as far as a 'direct' translation of the shader network to RSL or MDL in DS? Shouldn't be too difficult. Just finding someone who has the time may be tricky. I'll give it a basic shot tonight if I have time.
He posted the material room settings last month over at rendo, but I no longer use DS so can't help make the shader.
Basically the puddles will use the Fractal Sum brick with the output being used as a mask, not going to be easy to recreat the same effect and look as SM does things differently to the material room.
Oh, I noticed that. Fractal Sum is the one brick I'm not sure how I'll reproduce. But I'll give it a few tries tonight IF I have the time to. I may have to go searching through poser docs to find out exactly what that brick actually DOES, so I can try to replicate the behavior in RSL/MDL.....
I look forward to your reply.
Please keep in mind that displacement can tear apart edges and give undesired results.
That is why the bump channel is used in this shader.
Mainly looking to be as close to this shader tree as possible, even if there are grouped Bricks in the shader.
In Poser there is a Fresnel_Blend node, in Daz there is not.
I tried grouping an Edge Blend and a Fresnel brick but I am afraid that is not the way to go.
The Fresnel brick is a key element in the realism of the shader as it acts like real life in that the the longer the angle of view the less detailed the reflection is.
The closer you are to the surface the more detailed and crisp the reflection is, more like a mirror.
Thanks in advance for your help!
Regards, Tom
Once you get to Iray, it loves Normal Maps. :)
There is a Fresnel option in the Iray settings. You may find more options that will help there than you will have access to in 3delight. Iray is going to give those realistic details.
It's been a real slog trying to learn mixer for Iray. Woof.
And bah, wish there was a simple 'turn this into Normals' option. Ah well.
Timmins - have you checked out ShaderMap? I LOVE it. I drag a file (Color, Displacement etc) in and it makes me a pretty Normal Map. It can be adjusted etc... Version 3 will now also create them from the mesh. :)
Hi Kat,
Thanks for the encouragement as I am getting more excited as time goes by in Daz Studio.
With my A.D.D. I have to take things one at a time and in logical order.
Also I have to say with the correct render settings in 3DLight one can get some nice results.
Tom
Yes - 3delight can do great things when it is all set up right. :) Just handing you a few things to keep in mind for when you do decide to tackle Iray too. :) I have several of your products. Love them. But I do spend time converting things. It is totally expected when changing render engines, so I don't mind at all. :)
Try this program I have used it for years
It does Normal
Displacement
Ambient
Specularity and Diffuse Color all in one shot with many controls to modify them to the way you want.
http://www.crazybump.com/
No, the problem is that I've been working on procedurally generated stuff and I could really use something that generates normals on the fly as part of the shader.
Kat, my products will be coming with a 3DLight library of materials and well as IRay library of materials, all in one go, so no hours of conversion for you. :-)
I have seen a need to make Daz products for a while but fought it for some time but no longer.
I am very glad I started as I am truly liking the features that Daz has built in!
Tom
My bad...
I'm a little confused.....normals are a part of the geometry. Why do you need to generate them dynamically in the shader?
Normal maps. They contain information allowing the mesh to look detailed without adding polys. Like a bump map on steroids. :) But they do not physically "move" the mesh like a displacement map will. :)
Fantastic! I look forward to this very much. :) (I am a huge fan of the furniture as well as the sets) :)
Yes, I understand Normal Maps. But such maps don't change the existing normals of the geometry, only add in additional normals between vertexes so the mesh appears to have more detail.
But I don't see why this would be an issue inside the shader. The shader will interpolate between normals, but you can choose to perturb that normal however you want. That's how existing normal maps work. They modify the interpolated normals when shading. So I'm still not sure what Will is trying to do that is an issue. If it's a question of defining an algorithm to add some specific KIND of detail via normal perturbation as a procedural mapping, THAT I could understand as tricky. That's can be some very complicated math. But just calculating the normal? It's done for you.
Maybe you should PM either (or both) Mec4D or Stonemason? I think they'd be able to help you out. :)
And I can't wait to see your products in DS format!
I'm using Perlin and Worley noise bricks, they generate patterns of values. This can get piped to diffuse color, roughness, etc. Noise can be piped to bump, creating bumpy textures, or displacement.
What I can't figure out is how to do so with normals. Either there's a syntax I'm missing, a brick I'm missing, or I'm confused on basic principles and this won't work.
A while back I wrote a normal camera for 3DL. I never got into Iray, but the normal generation inside the shader was pretty easy. Once you understand exactly what the color channels mean, you can generate new normals based on whatever you want:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_mapping
- Greg
Thanks for the tip. If I can suss it out I think it will dramatically improve the shader I'm working on.
If you don't want to get knee deep in the math, I *think* there's a DS Displacement brick that will pump out a new normal for you based on the existing normal, displacement, etc. Sorry I can't be more specific at the moment, but I'm not on a box running DS at the moment. Hope this helps.
- Greg