You've been heard. Response re: 4.9 and Encryption
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You don't have to use Connect. DIM or manual install is available on the majority of products. If Connect is the only available means, don't buy the product. Life is about choices.
I'm extremely curious what positive stories anyone could possibly have about encryption/DRM!
Please, do tell.
Encryption has many positives; I'm not aware of any benefits to the customer of DRM. What I am aware of is, that at best, DRM has no negative impact on the customer.
So please, like Tim, I would love those to be explained; just make sure when you're explaining them that it is DRM (Digital Rights Management) you are discussing and not encryption.
Now DRM restricts all user's (legimate and not) access, to ensure they are a legimate user; explain the benefits of that to a legimate user.
Licensed is the correct term I believe. It does cover the situation of content that you are given limited use of that could be potentially be revoked. The only difference with encrypted content us now you can't use it without authentication and the possibility exists for it to be made unusable if the license is revoked. Or the licensor stops maintaining the authentication system. Daz has stated they have plans for the latter situation. Though there is some point to the argument that a convoluted 'poison pill' solution wouldn't be necessary if they had not gone with this DRM. Academic though, the DRM is already in place, all anyone with DRMd product can do is trust the solution is either unneeded or works properly. Would be sad if the worst happened and the pill were released only to find out it's glitchy or won't work on some users systems.
But it's the potential revocation of the license that seems to be of concern to the group arguing 'rental'. I'd say a properly phrased EULA could help with that as it would at least be something a customer could refer to in case of improper revocation. Right now, I don't see anything that covers the subject at all but I'm not a lawyer so I could be missing something. And because I'm not a lawyer, it is somewhat unnerving that revocation isn't covered. I don't know if it means that it can't be revoked (unless the terms are violated maybe?) Or if the licensor can revoke it at any time? The DRM makes revocation a more direct concern though obviously one could not legally use content if the license was revoked, it is somewhat emotionally different than saying the content could become completely unusuable if revoked.
Another concern is that I've purchased at least one item here that was substantially altered after release. (And not for technical reaaons, but because someone on the forum started a stink about how it looked similar to a certain outfit from a video game. It was not as identical as was claimed.) While anyone who had a backup of the original could still use it, that may not be the case when an encrypted version could have it's authorization removed and the altered version forced. Admittedly this was years ago and I would hope the current management would handle a similar situation better but we should have something stated that we won't have non-technical updates forced by the system. (And I'd count it as forced if I had to keep my system offline or logged off to prevent such updates.) For fixes and technical updates it's fine but when part of a product is removed, that is a problem.
I did read Steve's post on the EULA as protecting against things like Daz switching to a subscription model as well as making the poinson pill available, though that may be wrong.
Updates are user-initiated - though I'm not sure how isntalling on a new machine would go, or having both versions available. I think if you had the offline authorisation files archived you'd have access to the pre-update version.
Licensed may be the correct term; however, we are licensed now - but in effect the licence on none DRM products means we own it; even though we don't, and we should use it within the terms of the EULA. Rent is a good way of refering to the new licence because of its restrictions; and because at some stage in the future, the right to use it can be denied. My experience of DRM suggests that will happen, although in Daz's case that may not happen.
That is the problem I have, and many others I suspect. It's the uncertainty.
People have brought both of them up before, but the first great example is Steam. Regardless of what people say, Steam is a DRM platform. It was originally done to track licenses and curb piracy on valves games, at the time of launch, half life 2, back in 2003. At the time it was largely reviled and pretty much everyone hated it because it was seen as an intrusion on privacy and way too different from normal methods of distribution which didn't have a phone home. Fast forward to 2007 and attitudes greatly changed and it finally was getting acceptance and a lot of other publishers interested in selling through them, largely because of a massive downturn in traditional methods of distribution in pc games. Now it is, generally, seen as being generally awesome because, where as it is a DRM platform, put out by people who as a while don't like DRM, so really put in lots of effort and years of work to get it the right balance of being DRM which is actually transparent or customer friendly. There are several well written articles and interviews with gaben back in the day that paint a pretty clear picture as to the actual history and motivation of the platform.
Second example is smart phones. No smart phone out there exists without DRM. It may not "benefit" the customer, but it is pretty much completely transparent and ties into a delivery mechanism where you can find, install, and use the app without having to have any technical background as to what the device is doing or where it is installing things. The DRM, especially in the case of the Apple store, could be said to be a benefit since it encourages developers to develop for it since they know their work is a little more protected and they get paid closer to what they deserve if it is successful than without it, which provides users with a wider selection of apps they might not otherwise have.
Now I'm not saying these compare exactly with this market, no two markets are alike. But it is two huge examples, in the excess of billions of dollars worth, where essentially DRM platforms were a benefit for customers. Yes, they might have been able to accomplish the same without DRM, but that is arguing hypotheticals versus what their platforms actually are.
Whenever I login with Connect it goes through a whole routine of collecting updated metadata. That's when I'm worried that a potential exists for the system to be told to lock content until the update is performed. I wouldn't expect it in most cases, but the one I'm remembering involved removing parts of the outfit and replacing a whole texture set. I'm sure it'd be a database nightmare, but an easy method would be to disable a certain SKU and remove it from accounts, and release the update under a new SKU by adding it to accounts. I've got a couple items that were pulled from being downloadable for a period of time (though in their case there was a legitimate copyright issue with the mesh that was discovered) True these all happened in the days before we had things like DIM but the principle is still valid.
(I'm gonna also toss out there that while the login updates on Connect seem to catch that products have been returned pretty much immediately, I had a day or so before a newly purchased item would show up no matter how many times I tried going on and offline.)
Is there a clear and simple way to tell DRM DAZ products from non-DRM products?
I NEED to know that. Because I DO NOT intend to BUY the DRM DAZ products.
DRM is always bad. Involving another company is another weak point. Two companies double chances for websites to go down for one reason or another (be it DDOS or servers offline, or any number of scenerios) which causes angry customers. Pirates break most encrpytion in days. Simply put it's not worth punishing customers and vendors. The flip side of DRM is bad implimintation. Remember Macrovision killing dvd players on computers? Too bad you wanted to see that dvd on your pc that you purchased. We've just bricked your dvd player, no refunds from us for our crappy DRM. As it was Macrovision had a nasty habit of screwing up other software programs it shouldn't have ever had access to... As stated in the thread Amazon, a giant company, has had trouble with it's very, very successful kindle line and items being pulled (that had been previously purchased). Mind you Amazon made good with refunds.
Totally agreed here. I'm already putting a halt to renewing my Plat Club over this.... This is already poorly implimented. I'm seeing very old products listed with Daz Connect which doesn't really say whether it's encrpyted or not. I was starting to use D/S but mostly Poser and DSON. This is another step that drives away Poser users to use content they've purchased. It also will drive away D/S users.
Check Install Types on the store page. Non encrypted has several install types,
Install Types:
encrypted has only the one
Install Types:
I routinely bypass DRM on my smartphone, there's a nice little option to allow sideloading apps which can be necessary as the google appstore will not carry competing store apps like Amazon's appstore or until recently Humble Bundle. Not to mention how many people Root or Jailbreak their phones (quite legally in many cases if I recall correctly.)
And while Steam has managed to do DRM well, the new GOG Galaxy shows that the DRM is not a necessary component to the rest of it. And GOG is apparently succeeding well enough that companies like EA (who have a reputation for loving really draconian DRM) are starting to sell through GOG. Not anything as big as some others, but the fact that part of the EA library is there at all says something. Really, Steam is not a DRM platform these days, but rather a platform that has DRM (and not for every game. I've got ones that'll run just fine without me starting up Steam.). And I rather doubt the customers would be all that upset if the DRM aspect went away. But really is there truly any customer facing feature that could not exist without DRM? (assuming the game publishers stopped demanding it as a condition of their presence on Steam)
Meanwhile the DRM here is removing a customer facing feature on content. Plaintext readable files. May not be a feature everyone uses, but they are a useful feature of the format to some.
That would be true for two companies in series, the proposed poison pill system is two companies in parallel - if Daz fails the escrow company is a fallback, if the escrow company fails Daz appoints a new one.
Ah, my bad. I thought by 'positive stories' Snow was talking about the opposite of customer stories of DRM fardling their systems.
I will point out that the positive stories provided are rather... diffuse. 'DRM was used in these other industries and the businesses didn't fail' isn't... exactly a positive so much as not a negative. Which is something, I suppose.
That is my thought also. When I brought up exporting before, DAZ Jon seemed to indicate that piracy was aimed more at the complete packages rather than what could be exported. Personally I see more meshes and textures on the web than full DAZ packages, so I would think this kind of piracy would be more common and just as important to stop which the new encryption does nothing to stop.
I do not think the Apple App Store is a great analogy compared to how it will work here. The apps themselves are not actually encrypted, but they are signed, which ties them to a particular account. Also, hardily anyone would actually want to change one of the apps in order to use it, so it differs greatly from 3D content.
Another major difference is that apps on App Stores (this is true for IOS and Google) are almost all free of charge. They make their money via advertising and in app purchases. If you lose access to your account, then you can always create another one and download all the games for nothing. Yes, some games you have to pay for, but they are a dying breed of apps. I am an App developer for both IOS and Android, and the amount of money I make through sales is a tiny percentage of my total revenue.
I'm positive I'll never use Connect ... does that count?
I remember at the press conference where Coke backed down and introduced Coke Classic alongside 'new' Coke, a reporter asked if maybe they hadn't planned this all along (to increase store shelf presence). His reply was brilliant: 'We aren't that smart; and we aren't that dumb.' Probably worth remembering as this whole DAZ thing continues to unfold.
week one since I was informed of daz connect has been in service.... its also Week 1 I have spend Zero money here. & week 1 of refusing to use a software that target me with store items.
Now I don't care if others want their content locked into ecrptions.or if they like all those new store icons in their content directory. That is none of my business for the reason you will accept those policies. or if you don't care if some scripts get broken.. It is a very big deal when it comes to creating story board animation with daz studio.
These are only a few of the very good reasons why I need complete control over my content. without having to have another work around to make something work when it use to work fine before I mean really every time daz comes out with a new software upgrade it seems like we have to have yet another work around for this or that. why not try giving us improvements like a floor pinning tool. , or Bullet Physic tool etc.
I have a much different need for using this 3d content besides making a few still pictures and like all you and I use to spend a ton of money on content. A lost of control for my animation needs means No money for the company trying to sell me encrypted content. hell no I won't go there. If you don't think encrypted products don't slow down a work flow when creating an animation, or if your trying to convince me that having a content directory completely modified to support a encrypted product does not mess with my pipeline with other software in creating animations then I want what ever your smoking,. & I suggest you try creating an animated films yourself.
"Encrypted Products" equals no money spent on it from me.
What I would want is DAZ supporting the buyer.
The PR spin should have been about protecting buyers... not DAZ protecting itself... even if it's BS... you guys need some kind of PR person. All these constant changes are handled in such a nonchalant way.
Winterblack hall was updated in DIM like 15 times after I bought it. How is encryption going to handle this? If the buyer doesn't update to the latest release of an encrypted product will they have screwy things happening? I doubt it... but DAZ just goes on to the next thing... hasa few tech folks in the forums explaining stuff... over and over and over... supreme applause for Fixmypcmike and Richard Haseltine for the incredible amount of questions they answer constantly... but you need some kind of planning. It's like no one at DAZ thought this whole encryption thing was gonna make much noise... when you have customers who are spending... literally... thousands of dollars a year on this hobby.
G2F was getting off rolling and growing steam... getting V4 folks making skin sets for both and you release G3F... killing that snowball you had growing... then this encrypotion thing. You guys haven't shot yourself in your foot... you've shot yourself in both feet and your knee caps.
This company has such incredible fantastic stuff going on but it's like you can't wait to shove it all out the door into the storefront. What vendor now is going to support 3Delight shaders and lights and advancing that? IRAY IRAY IRAY... hey look over here G3F G3F G3F... hey encryption...
Dayam... have some kind of plan and PR package... it's a damn mess
Thanks so much.
R
If we really want piracy to end then governments need to control the web... but then everyone suffers. This is really the problem area we're at in this era. Some 13 year old hacker is going to break down the DAZ encryption, share it with their friends... and move on to the next hacker challenge of the week. But the buyers... who are a lot like me and tech dumb... will have to count on the DAZ encryption working 100% all the time. But DAZ is in a constant state of upgrade and serevice release and beta state... things are constantly being fixed or updated ALL THE TIME at DAZ. For a Poser user this is very foreign ground. Maybe for DAZ users it's a comfort zone. DAZ seems to be in a continuuious neverending state of change.
At the same time... DAZ, not Poser... is pushing this market to its extreme boundaries. So, we need DAZ to thrive.
That is what fixmypc is suggesting, you can keep your current content library exactly as it is. No need to do anything at all, If you install anything via connect all you need to do is drag and drop the new files from smart content to your product library and it will create shortcuts there, which can be stuck wherever your heart desires. Connect doesn't mess with how; things are set up in the content library.
Here's an example of a hack that helps DAZ...
Can G2F skins work on G3F. No. Wait!!
A 3rd party vendor has made a hack... a work around the LIMITATIONS deliberately put forth ( in a product sold by another store ) ... so now customers can use G2F skins ( and ALSO V4 skins then ) on G3F.
This was a workaround. This was a hack. Hacking can help and hinder us.
Encryption WILL NOT stop hacking. Once you introduce a thing and its limitations are found... someone will begin finding a hack around its limitations. This is what humans do best of all.
Older products like that, with DIM files, won't be encrytped. However, huge products will benefit particularly from Daz Connect as once installed with that only the updated files need to be downloaded, not the whole .5GB or whatever it was zip - if you make sure the files are compressed (Batch Connect pane) you can switch to the Connect version by installing from a products list and unchanged files will be copied from the local version, not downloaded - I do see this as a huge benefit given the size of Iray-ready products. Of course this is separate from encryption.
OT - but I only personally updated it once.. not sure about the other 14 times...?
My understanding is that the product doesn't need to do anything to the existing, possibly encrypted (though not for G3F) files - it applies the materials preset file to a remapped G3F and to a set of GeoGrafts, neither of which would be stopped if the presets were encrypted or installed via Connect.
My FixDuplicate IDs script would be blocked if the files were encrypted, as would a script I wrote (but have not released) that lists the morphs from a particular set (or sets) by their grouping in the Paramaters pane, so I do understand the worry about workflow. For what it's worth, I am told that there is a new/modiifed script object that would let my morph-listing script work on a loaded figure instead of parsing a file hierarchy, which would be an imporvement in usability, but I don't yet have the details to do the work.