PC instead of Mac. . .
cclesue
Posts: 420
This is not the usual Mac vs PC question but rather asking help in upgrading. For years I have been a dyed in the wool Mac man. The problem is that my system is now getting a bit out dated and underpowered to handle the newer demands of memory and processing power. To upgrade tot he level I think I need will cost me in excess ot a thousand dollars for the necessary memory and video card and I will still be left with a eight year old mac running 2x2.8 ghz quad core. My current video card is the stock ATI Radeon HD 2600 with only 256M of VRAM and I suspect might be my biggest problem since a lot of the things I do rely on graphics card calculations. I say this although I'm not sure. I do NO gaming but lots of Photoshop and of course Poser and Studio rendering. An other thing is I keep having trouble with my memory losing a pair of Dimms has reduced my capacity to only 4 gigs. One of the things I did do that helped a lot was to invest in a solid state drive which speeded up Hard drive calculations.
So heres my problem do I try to upgrade this machine or should I go for a cheaper but faster PC? In this market I'm looking at over $2500 for a used 4 year old Mac Pro 12 core. Something on my retirement annuity I can't afford. I'm told PC are considerably cheaper if I'm not looking at a gaming machine. Is this true and what should I look for as a good starting point, both memory and computing powerwise?
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Comments
Problem is for most things graphics related there isn't much of a difference between a 'graphics' machine and a 'gaming' machine...but it isn't that bad.
For that $2500 you could get one heck of a 'gamer'...or for about half that a decent one. No, it won't be a 12 core machine.
...I concur with moving to PC even though Windows can be a pain in the bum at times.
Paying a couple thousand for 4 year old used tech is not a very good investment. If I am not correct, that model of That Mac Pro also uses dual 6 core Xeons rather than a single 12 core CPU.
There's another thread where a person in the UK is looking at building a system and posted a the component list. IN USD it would come to about 2,600$ at the current exchange rate, however components are more expensive there due to Value Added Taxes. For example a 980 TI there is over 800$ where you can get one for around 650$ here
Howdy,
Just as an FYI, unless you are tyring to use Iray (which you can't with your AMD card) or Luxrender, you are not using your GPU, so it is not holding your back. DAZ Studio and Poser (along with Photoshop) are more limited by your CPU and RAM than your video card (GPU). Secondly, yes you can get more performance for your dollar by purchasing a Windows machine, but you don't have to go for the refurb Mac Pro. Take a look here: http://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/imac ; The middle or high-end options would be a nice upgrade form your older system, and the Retina display on the high-end is unparalleld in the PC world (for the price). Not to mention, if you up your budget, you can get the 27" with a 5K display! Don't get hung-up on clock speed, as IPC (or instructions per clock) and Hyperthreading make newer processors much faster than older ones, particualry from 8 years ago lol. Unless you are willing to build your own PC, most of the pre-built options that are less than the $2500 you mentioned, are going to be severly compromised, even compared to the iMacs above. I suggest (if you can) head into an Apple store and take a look at the new iMacs first hand. Good luck!
Rich S.
I got a new old Mac last year for a lot less than that for iray rendering and I am sre you could do something. That goes along with my other Mac (an iMac). To be honest, I couldn't ever stand to use a PC, but I do want to let you know there are other options out there.
There are certain things I have such as the SSD, HDs and the dual 24' monitors that would go with me to the new machine which ever it is so I'm not looking to the Imacs. It is my understanding that both PS and Poser do use the GPU for some actions tough I'm not sure what. I think the 3d function in PS is one of them as I've tried to use it only to have the app tell me I lack the neccessary vram.
I'm a mac user. I used to write software for Windows...back in the day, but once I began learning about Linux and Unix, I just couldn't stand using Windows any more. It just felt like using a toy piano when I wanted to play concertos.
That said, I now use a Retina iMac as my main machine and have a decent little windows computer that pretty much only runs DAZ Studio. I hate having to actually use the windows part of that computer, since it's completely foreign to me these days, and everything just seems wrong about the choices MS has made (exactly why did I have to turn off advertisements on my desktop?), but I get by. If DS supported linux, I would ditch both Apple and MS in a heartbeat. Probably, when I replace my iMac, it will be with a linux desktop...I'm getting really sick of Apple's myopathy.
If you want to take advantage of iray, you'll need to switch over to windows, because Apple wants to minimize power use and heat dispersion, which isn't Intel's focus (and not generally useful for heavy GPU performance). If your desktop is sufficient for day to day tasks, you might do like me and get a secondary machine just for 3D and keep your desktop for doing everyday tasks. Then, maybe in a year or two, you can splurge on a new iMac to replace the aged desktop. I have to say, for non-3d stuff, iMac's are just fine. They just lack the expandability for doing specialized tasks. The nice thing about the PC approach (at least, it's still true as of today) is that you can usually upgrade in a piecemeal fashion. So, if you get a decent GPU card today, you can upgrade later when your budget allows and get the boost without having to shell out for a whole new computer. With Macs, that's usually not much of an option.
Greetings,
Just a data point, I do exactly this. I have a Mac for my general use and software development (desktop, mobile and web apps), and a Windows box that is _just_ used for Iray rendering. (Okay, I do use it for testing any desktop apps I write that might happen to run on Windows via Java, but it's never my primary development platform, and I render like...a hundred times more often than I run those tests.)
-- Morgan
I used to be happy with a windows VM to test crap with. But DAZ...the evil monsters, actually convinced me to buy a computer with windows installed...I feel dirty just saying it;)
Actually, I really do feel like Windows 10 is a clumsy mess. I never really used 7 or anything between it and 10. I thought XP was an improvement over Windows ME, but still inferior to even it's contemporary linux desktops....and OS X was light years beyond those...back then. But, to be able to search for programs instead of clicking on a start button and moving the mouse a bit is OK, I guess. I don't have enough stuff on there that my program files menu would be big enough for that to actually be useful, but, I can see how it might be...maybe. The worst thing is that I actually have to type in program names to find crap, since there isn't really a "program files" menu any more...at least, not that I can see. Eventually the system learns what you use, and they start showing up on the first click. That is nice. Windows explorer (or are they actually calling it finder now?) is useless. I hated mac's finder for years, but I've gotten used to it, and now feel like windows explorer is crap, lol. I guess Steve Jobs wasn't a complete idiot.
I have an older Mac Pro that I bought for iray, just pop in a 980 video card and go. It might not be the fastest thing but it does well and I can add more to give it a boost.
So where did you get your 980 vid card and how much? I should add I have an early 2008 machine and a lot of the available cards claim they won't work in anything that old
This is exactly my position. I want to use Iray but I have an iMac - I've just had to bite the financial bullet and buy a PC - much as I hate Windows (Microsoft are selling us spyware/adware). Having said that, Apple are just as bad these days. The intention was to sell my iMac to offset the cost of the new PC but I'm so reluctant to part with it. Maybe I can do without that new TV and use my iMac 27" as a TV as well as a desktop.
What I did was get a Mac Pro (early 2009) from http://eshop.macsales.com/shop/Apple-Systems/Used/Mac-Pro and this vid card http://www.macvidcards.com/store/p42/Nvidia_GTX_980_4_GB.html. I had an old monitor from a G4 still around so that is what I am using. There was no way I could ever deal with a PC.
Remember when Bryce only ran on a Mac and Macs were the future of CGI and 3D?
After being an Apple customer since the late 90s I finally switched to PC last year.
I still suggest them for people who are less computer savvy and have the money to spend on the convenience. For me it was upgrade ability and price... Mac is a totally closed playing field now and you have to completely play by their rules and at this point (to me) it's gotten ridiculous. Windows machines are cheaper and are still available as standard configuration towers and desktop machines that don't void your warranty if you open them and change something and that is what I needed/wanted. It can sometimes seem like like you have downgraded, from a BMW to a Chevy Malibu, but when you realize you can customize, trick out and reconfigure that Malibu to drive wherever you want and not just on a factory approved track you feel a little better about your choice. To be honest I miss it, but so far it's tolerable... I still like most aspects of the Mac OS... But it's the rest of package and the direction they headed in that I can't handle anymore.
I also briefly considered buying a newer, but used (two year old) Mac Pro... But the prices that I was getting were insulting... This is a computer, not a Ferrari or fine wine... In a couple of cases the prices for four year old machines were only $200 less than original price... WTF? The prices for two years old were practically the same as new, so I tossed that idea. At this point, as far as I see it, (just my opinion) the iMac is basically a big powerful iPad on a stand, about the only thing you can still change on that is memory or hard drive (if even, I haven't looked into that in over a year or two), so for me that wasn't a good idea... The ridiculously expensive new Mac Pro used to be the better choice if you wanted to upgrade stuff as it aged... But when I got a look at a demo model at a local Mac store, my heart sank... It had a clear case/housing to show off the guts... Cool as it looks (it looks like some evil Sith droid or Darth Macintosh inside with all the black boards and components), it's so tight I wouldn't want to mess with anything in there... I've already had to take apart two iMacs and that was as much fun as working on a laptop... Now the pro has gone that route...
Then there was the issue with Apple abandoning Open GL In favor of Metal... to be honest I don't really know if that would effect most 3D stuff so much, but it appears several game makers announced there would be no upcoming Mac versions (I'm a console gamer, not PC, so I don't worry about that), it's not the same but I still worried if that would eventually cause some issues for my 3D work, especially because a couple of programs I have are very specific about what minimum version of OpenGL the will need.
If I fell into a lot of money, I'd still buy a Mac, just for regular stuff, music, photoshop, etc.. But Last week when I plugged a new lightning cable which I bought from Best Buy, into my iPad and it told me it wouldn't charge because it wasn't a Mac OEM cable (not the exact wording in the pop-up window, but somehow the devices now know if the cable is from Mac or not) I was reminded of how tightly Mac has to control everything related to their products and even though it's a bit depressing, it's not something I want to be part of at this time.
All of the above is not Mac bashing, it's mostly personal opinion so anyone reading it please just take it as such.
The cable sounds like Best Buy stiffed you. There is a standard lighting cables have to apply to fully work (They'll often work thru the error message). If the Best buy cable says "certified" on it, it's not...take it back and get a refund.
I got a pack of 3 lightnings from Amazon that I'm sure were a tenth of what you paid at Best Buy and they work perferctly with no errors.
Better wait a few months and then have a quality machine with a quality system. I won't go into the details of the - ahem - difference between Mac OS and Windows (it's not good for my blood pressure ;-)), but... well. Also when it comes to graphics, Mac still is unbeatable. The monitors alone are not matched by anything I saw on the Windows front. I work with both systems - at work with Windows, at home with Mac, and believe me, I am always happy to leave this Windows c... and go home to my Mac.
I used Windows exclusively at work and home until I retired 3 years ago. I then dumped Windows and bought an iMac and a Macbook Air and have been very happy with them. The iMac 27" screen is a beauty, I like the presentation of OSX and I also use the Unix shell commands when I need to. However, for precisely the reasons given by @McGyver above, I've reluctantly ordered a new PC. My iMac can't be user-upgraded (except for RAM) and the GPU is not up to the IRay task. A new Mac with a capable GPU would have to be a Mac Pro and the prices of those are ridiculously high. I'm tempted to hang on to my iMac for general use but I may need to sell to recoup some of the money I'm spending on the PC.
I must admit that your arguments are worth considering. Apple should be aware that the fact that not all of their machines can be upgraded could cost them a terrible lot of money...
Apple is rolling in so much money that they probably don't care. (I'd love to be rich enough that I can ignore my customers, lol)
I've just bought a Windows PC with a 980TI, solely so I can run Iray at sensible speeds. Right now I'm just using it for rendering, partly because it's attached to an old 23-inch monitor I rescued from the attic, and partly because using Windows is like trying to do everything left-handed (although I'm sure I'll get used to it). I had hoped to be able to run a Display Port cable to the back of my 27" iMac, and use it in display mode (something the Internet said was possible), but it seems that Apple in their wisdom deemed that "too useful" and closed it off so that it now only works with full thunderbolt devices. Of course the 980TI doesn't have Thunderbolt output. I could run remote desktop, but right now it seems simpler to do the work on the iMac and shunt it over to the PC for rendering (while continuing to work).
Once I've paid off the PC, I'll be looking at one of those gorgeous 21x9 34" curved monitors (I've got so used to the 1440 pixel height of the iMac, that I can't settle for anything smaller!). It'll display 2 computers at once, so I can have truly side-by side computing!
BTW, the ONLY thing you can upgrade on my iMac is the RAM. Can't even swap out the cruddy "green" hard drive, and there's no optical drive at all. I hate that about Macs!
having supported macs for years and spending the better part of my day on Apple forums for tech help my advice to you is something other than Mac for production, and to add to what Tango Alpha just mentioned you can not upgrade RAM in any Mac laptop designed after 2013. It is soldered to the logic board and can not be removed (without a pry bar and soldering iron) and there are no open slots to add more. This is how Apple QC's their laptops now, you cant introduce 3rd party RAM, you buy it at the time of purchase, they add it during assembly if it's not standard. Once you get it thats how much RAM you can put in it forever.
and to add to what MCGuyver mentioned, OpenCL is broken, Apple stated they know, Apple stated they would address it, but two years later it's still not fixed. In that time they announced Metal so it's safe to say OpenCL is carton of cracked eggs and I'm going to stand on an overpass and whip 'em at cars. Additionally some Audio developers have cited ongoing issues with OS 10.11. Apple is determined to provide you the tools they want from their store so they get a cut, unfortunately just because it's on the store is not a measure of it being good, safe or supported by anyone with a vested interest, it is a measure of a developer being who they say they are, in other words a 1/2 @$$ safety measure not quality control.
Apple was the gold standard for artists and musicians, I do both but I do most if not all on the PC now.
I've been struggling with the same issues for awhile. It appears DAZ is really encouraging us to use iRay. Some items are only available with iRay. I first switched to Macintosh computers back in 2007. Eventually I dumped all my PCs. My life has been so much simpler and rewarding since then. My biggest frustration is that Apple doesn't give us the power to upgrade our computers in the way you can with a PC desktop "tower". The "old Mac Pros" were the last models to offer such freedom. Apple hasn't always offered nVidia cards in their Macs. I got a 2013 iMac that has a 1TB nVidia card. I'm glad. But it's just not enough for iRay.
I recently talked to people at the DAZ forums, and got ideas on building a new PC. Even if I had the money, the idea of working with Windows again makes me ill. I'm currently dreaming of getting one of the "old Mac Pros" listed at OWC. You don't want anything made before 2009.
http://eshop.macsales.com/shop/Apple-Systems/Used/Mac-Pro
any Mac Pro prior to early 2008 will not be able to install OS 10.11 or later. Currently DS 64 bit requires OS 10.8 but if later versions require newer OS's the highest upgrade is dependent on the system. Conversely Macs are not down gradable to OS's earlier than what was developed at the time the computer was manufactured (not what was shipped). e.g. the iMac 2015 line of macs in production were created after the release of OS 10.10 Yosemite, they can not run Yosemite, had they come out two weeks earlier and you bought one today with 10.11 El Capitan and you owned 10.10.Yosemite you could install on that computer without voiding any warranty, but if you try not the installer will identify the system as being inelligable for the legacy OS.
I probably should have double checked, but I threw away the package... But apparently a brand new Apple cable will occasionally do it too, after I got the message I tracked down the box my iPhone came in, which still had the brand new cable... On every ten or twelfth plugging in, it too will give the message... Nothing is dirty, broken or loose. The cable still had the original vinyl packing loop on it and had never been used. Apparently my wife's iPhone was doing the same thing a few months ago but she never mentioned it, and it eventually stopped doing it on its own... That was with an OEM Apple cable too. I get trying to protect your brand and giving a warning, but making the device refuse to charge is just annoying... Especially when the device gets confused and does it with the approved cable... It's almost like they went out of their way to piss me off and then charge me extra for the privilege... Especially with something stupid like a cable.... Megh.... I've been getting the nag warnings to to upgrade the IOS, so maybe this is related to that, but it's almost besides the point.
I'm happy that I can run El Capitan on my 2013 27" iMac, the 2009 Mac Mini, and my 13' 2009 Macbook. I have an old 24" 2006 iMac that runs Lion, I think. I had to use an external hard drive to run the 24" iMac because the iMac fell off my desk. I don't really have room for the old 2006 iMac, and haven't used it in a year or so.
Yes, there is a concern that eventually a 2009 Mac Pro would be obsolete, and not supported by Apple. A PC would likely have more years before it became obsolete.
I have a 2009, it's a beast. Apple should have continued this models form factor IMHO. It was designed to be upgradable, versatile and a viable production workhorse for years (I still use it for that purpose) and it's retained a suprising amount of value for a seven year old box, but I think Apple decided a shiny black trash basket with three year old parts and a price tag that hasn't budged is a better investment to potential Apple owners or those looking to upgrade and stay loyal.
btw here's how you can change the internal HD on the 2006
StratDrgon, thanks for the info on changing the hard drive. I've seen various videos before. I've hesitated because it is a lot of work. I'm just not sure it's worth the effort.
understood. if it works for you and you can use it without the fear of 'splodin or frying a working computer there is no shame in that either.
Like the OP, I have been watching and waiting for a new Mac Book Pro for years now. I want a high-end one, however, and they're just not making them, so I will stay with PC. Windows 10 is not bad. Get Windows 10 Pro if you need to have control over automatic updates, it's worth it if that is important to you. Also consider getting Classic Shell if you're like me and you like having the old Start button and Start menu.
Gaming machines make for superb rendering machines, but if you're an Iray user, be sure you get one with a discrete Nvidia graphic card, and not an AMD card or only a combo-CPU/GPU.
If you buy a pre-built machine, that is precisely what you are getting. That is how box-makers can make PCs and PC laptops less expensive. Know this, realize it, and plan accordingly. Leverage it and make it work in your favor. Or else, just reset Windows and start fresh. Worst case, obtain a pure copy of Windows and start fresh (but that will cost some money).
I always build my own PC, so I never get any of that. But even if you can't BYO (or if you're buying a laptop, there's not realy much choice), then you just have to recognize the fact that you may need to de-install the clutter. I recommend approaching this with a "can do" attitude, not with an attitude that it's a waste of time or that it makes "all of Windows bad". That's just silly.
Because, quite frankly, a moderately powerful PC is now in a higher class than the fastest Mac computers. And graphic designers have been making the transition from Mac to PC for a few years now. It really can be worth your trouble.
In my opinion, privacy concerns in Windows 10 are overblown. And you can disable a lot of the telemmetry anyway, so I recommend we all just do that and move on. Again, it makes no sense to worry about Microsoft spying on Victoria's and Michael's antics in your runtime when it's so easy to just disable this stuff and get on with your life.
Good luck to the OP.
I don't know if this will help the Mac users going to Windows, but it might. And there are many more pages and videos if you search Google with "how to make windows like a mac"
http://www.wikihow.com/Turn-a-Windows-PC-Into-a-Mac
if CUDA is your goal get the Nvidia card, if not AMD cards generally test better and cost less and from what I'm reading on various blog Nvidia has no intention of lowering the prices on their older cards any time soon which I expect so there isn't a run on them when they try to shove Pascal at the consumer with the promise of "10x the power" CEO math.
having used and continue to use both Win 10 and El Capitan my finding are Win 10 is a total POS and step backwards from the stability and non-intrusion of Windows 7. Win 10 is de clunkiest OS's since Vista, or Windows 3.1 except now it's determined to suck up more CPU and network bandwidth then ever before. Windows 10 is "not there yet" and I cant say if it ever will be but this is MS's last OS(?) and that freaks me out a little.
My $0.02*
*actual cash value -$0.02