Shader Questions

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  • RenpatsuRenpatsu Posts: 828
    edited December 1969

    Did you actually check the pages Omnifreaker put up on his site? There are quite descriptive as to what which setting does and he got some video tutorials, too :)

    http://www.omnifreaker.com/index.php?title=UberSurface2

    http://www.omnifreaker.com/index.php?title=UberSurface2Tutorial

  • Joe CotterJoe Cotter Posts: 3,164
    edited December 1969

    Renpatsu said:
    Did you actually check the pages Omnifreaker put up on his site?...

    Yes, I've been through them multiple times. The point you must have missed is that UberSurface2 is supposedly an extension on HSS so that the settings should transfer over, however they aren't. I can assure you the fact that transfering settings from what is supposedly a subset to what theoretically is an identical base with expanded features doesn't work isn't covered in either the documentation or the tutorials.

    I appreciate everyone's help, and realize we're all just trying to figure this out. Being dismissive doesn't help anyone.

  • Joe CotterJoe Cotter Posts: 3,164
    edited December 1969

    Szark said:
    Here you go try this for starters Gedd...

    Thanks, will try... appreciate you taking the time to look at it :)

  • Takeo.KenseiTakeo.Kensei Posts: 1,114
    edited December 1969

    As Richard stated, applying US2 doesn't keep settings. I have the same problem applying US. I think the dsa/duf script could be modified to retain all maps and values but for now it is not done this way.

    What I usually do is selecting all the surface I want to apply the shader then right click -> copy selected surface. After that apply the US shader then right click -> paste to selected surfaces

  • RenpatsuRenpatsu Posts: 828
    edited December 1969

    Gedd said:
    Renpatsu said:
    Did you actually check the pages Omnifreaker put up on his site?...

    Yes, I've been through them multiple times. The point you must have missed is that UberSurface2 is supposedly an extension on HSS so that the settings should transfer over, however they aren't. I can assure you the fact that transfering settings from what is supposedly a subset to what theoretically is an identical base with expanded features doesn't work isn't covered in either the documentation or the tutorials.

    I appreciate everyone's help, and realize we're all just trying to figure this out. Being dismissive doesn't help anyone.

    UberSurface2 is actually at least partially a rewrite and some concepts changed, Omnifreaker explained that at least in one of his threads, so just copying the values over won't do. For that matter Omnifreaker is actually explaining some differences in the video tutorial ...

    What you need to understand is that the more extreme your values are, the more likely you push a shader over the edge and because of them being different you might see a difference how they react in extreme situations. Dismissing this thread now.

  • Joe CotterJoe Cotter Posts: 3,164
    edited December 1969

    As Richard stated, applying US2 doesn't keep settings...

    Actually, using the 'update' script seems to do a pretty good job, but I manually went through each setting, one by one.

  • Takeo.KenseiTakeo.Kensei Posts: 1,114
    edited December 1969

    Gedd said:
    As Richard stated, applying US2 doesn't keep settings...

    Actually, using the 'update' script seems to do a pretty good job, but I manually went through each setting, one by one.

    Lucky you then. There is not such an option with default US (not that I really bother but it's a cool option)

  • Joe CotterJoe Cotter Posts: 3,164
    edited December 1969

    Renpatsu said:
    ...What you need to understand is that the more extreme your values are, the more likely you push a shader over the edge and because of them being different you might see a difference how they react in extreme situations...

    Actually, I should have said thanks about this before. I also was thinking this, but after having played with a number of variations was basically feeling like I was beating my head against a wall, as there are a lot to go through. That's why I appreciate Szark's recommendations of ones to try.

  • Joe CotterJoe Cotter Posts: 3,164
    edited December 1969

    ..There is not such an option with default US...

    I forgot that wasn't available in standard US... I'm glad you mentioned the copy/paste method for anyone else who might be following this and not have US2 :)

  • Joe CotterJoe Cotter Posts: 3,164
    edited September 2012

    Well Szark, after playing with your settings I arrived at what you see below. Basically it's exactly the same as the previous spreadsheet but with the modifications you suggested. It's still not the same as the HSS but it's definatly better. I see some of the detail returning. With more playing I'm sure I could get it much better, however the question still remains as to why it's so much work to get decent results in what should be a better shader.

    There is a halo that has appeared around the lips that I'm not sure where it came from. There's also something strange going on with the scelera, but the scelara issue was there before. I wasn't really worried about that at this point as my main concern has been the loss of detail in the skin. The other thing about the skin is that it looks like she is wearing too much foundation (makeup.) I don't know if it is what is obscuring the texture but it is a side effect that in itself could be reduced if I could figure out what is causing it.

    Did I say I do love this character? I'll mention it again ;)

    Tamisis_Headshot,_UE2_US2_modified_(Szark).jpg
    800 x 865 - 51K
    Post edited by Joe Cotter on
  • Joe CotterJoe Cotter Posts: 3,164
    edited December 1969

    Thanks for the help on this, Szark, Renspatsu, and Takeo :)

  • Takeo.KenseiTakeo.Kensei Posts: 1,114
    edited December 1969

    From what I recall from an old thread about SSS in the Forum archive, the US2 is definitely better and different from US

    The US2 has some presets which use real measured values from BSSRDF found here

    With that you also have a back scatter boost option that you don't have with US which could be usefull for rendering glowing ears with SSS

    My guess is that the internal code is somewhat different from US and you must use different settings to get it better

  • SzarkSzark Posts: 10,211
    edited December 1969

    Takeo.Kensei is probably correct but only Omni can answer why it is so different from HSS and US.

    I also noticed you have SSS strength at 100% knock that down to 405 for a good starting point.

    Like I said earlier if you want to get a handle on which channel is effecting the detail then turn off SSS and Transluceny and render see if the detail comes back. Then turn on SSS render etc.

  • SyndarylSyndaryl Posts: 515
    edited December 1969

    Gedd said:
    Renpatsu said:
    Did you actually check the pages Omnifreaker put up on his site?...

    Yes, I've been through them multiple times. The point you must have missed is that UberSurface2 is supposedly an extension on HSS so that the settings should transfer over, however they aren't.

    Part of the point of US2 was the total rewrite of the way subsurface scattering worked, which, as per Omnifreaker's site, made the way artists previously had to combine translucency and the old version of subsurface not only unnecessary (ie you can use just Subsurface where before you had to use heavy translucence) but also would provide completely different results - the new US2 subsurface model is different, and produces different results.

    IE the US2 subsurface settings and translucence settings are supposed to need adjustment from a HSS or US1 setting - the old settings are badwrongdifferent with the new model.

    US2 isn't just 'adding new boxes' to HSS. Some of the existing things had to change to get the improvements omnifreaker was looking for.

  • Joe CotterJoe Cotter Posts: 3,164
    edited September 2012

    Thanks Syndaryl, so far though I'm not seeing an improvement as far as maintaining texture detail unfortunately. This at least lets me know I might be able to recover it if I can hone in on the proper conversion settings.

    I was going back through and spotted the last comment from Szark. Between that the other comments, it gives me more to play with.

    Post edited by Joe Cotter on
  • SzarkSzark Posts: 10,211
    edited December 1969

    Syndaryl said:
    Gedd said:
    Renpatsu said:
    Did you actually check the pages Omnifreaker put up on his site?...

    Yes, I've been through them multiple times. The point you must have missed is that UberSurface2 is supposedly an extension on HSS so that the settings should transfer over, however they aren't.

    Part of the point of US2 was the total rewrite of the way subsurface scattering worked, which, as per Omnifreaker's site, made the way artists previously had to combine translucency and the old version of subsurface not only unnecessary (ie you can use just Subsurface where before you had to use heavy translucence) but also would provide completely different results - the new US2 subsurface model is different, and produces different results.

    IE the US2 subsurface settings and translucence settings are supposed to need adjustment from a HSS or US1 setting - the old settings are badwrongdifferent with the new model.

    US2 isn't just 'adding new boxes' to HSS. Some of the existing things had to change to get the improvements omnifreaker was looking for.Well put Syndaryl. This is the thing a lot of folks don't grasp that US2 is not a direct update/grade to US and some adjustments are required.

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