My G9 characters' heights are all WRONG - what content is making G9 bigger?
DavidGB
Posts: 628
There's something very wrong with the heights given in the store pages for all the DAZ Original Genesis 9 characters I've checked. They are nothing like the supposedly Measuremetric heights given on the store pages (we mere plebs don't have access to the figuremetric set for Genesis 9 like we do for the older figures, but we can certainly measure the figure's heights within DS as it uses real world units).
Preamble - what leads me to this, which you can skip if you're bored and just scroll down until you see measurements.
Right from when I started with Poser 4 in early 2004, then DS 0.9 Public Beta from the day that was released, I've been obsessive about my character's heights, as I start from being a writer, and I was trying to do, in Poser then DS, characters I already kew, and knew how tall each was supposed to be. Very early on, pre the first DS release, I had a problem in that the only unit of measurement within Poser was the PNU - the Poser Native Unit, with no official statement as to what that was in real world units. That led to much argument within the Poser community, various 'sides' and some major flame wars! It also meant that content made by different PAs that comprised objects with known fixed real world lengths - like an M16, or a coke can, or the normal heights of tables and doors - were often quite out of scale with each other where the different artists subscribed to different theories of how long a PNU was. I picked a side that seemed the most sensible to me, and before DS came out downloaded a measuring prop I've been using every since - it has a horizontal and vertical scale marked in feet and inches within Poser and DS, and moveable vertical and horizontal sliding bars. When the first 0.9 Public Beta DS was released, DAZ pickedd the same scale I had for PNUs, and as DS uses real world units, x y and z translations measured in cm, I checked and found my Poser prop still worked exactly in DS, a height it showed in the scene in ft and in matched exactly the ytrans of the sliding bar converting ft and in to cm. So I've used it since March 2004 in Poser 4 and it still works exactly in DS6 now. And I became obseesive about the measurements of the DAZ human figures, and their proportions. Victoria 3, the then state-of-the-art DAZ female figure is well out of proportion - for the torso size the legs are way too long and the head too small, and back then in both Poser and DS, altering proportions of body parts didn't work properly, with hideous effects on any conformed clothes. My quest for realism meant I actually downloaded a lot of the Peter Levius reference material, photos of real women and men, for whom actual body measuremetns were given, photographed in standard poses, and then added some photos off the internet of assorted actresses, sportswoem and the odd singer who ahppened to eb in the same poses. I found that if I took images of a selection of the women who had a range of real world heights from 5' 1" to 5' 11" and scaled them (x and y same amoount) so they were all matched in height, side by side, body landmarks lined up almost exactly - top of head, chin, collarbones, nipples and base of sternum, elbows, navels, hips, crotch, knees, ankles etc. So basically the body proportions of a random sample of real women remained the same irrespective of whether they were below average 5' 1", average height for (white) women in both the UK and US 5' 4", or towering 99th percentile 5' 11". Victoria 3 was way out. But Stephanie 3 'Petite' (which ws ironic, because she was actually 5' 6" at 100% scale as DS loaded her, which is 2" taller than the UK and US average and the 75th percxentiel for women in the US and UK) actually matched the real world bodypart proportions. (And when I had those real world pictures as textures on planes in DS, scaling each on its plane to be their real world height within DS, and was moving the SP3 figure amongst them to compare, I'm pretty sure I found who the DAZ modeller based SP3 on, as while the face was a bit different, the SP3 body EXACTLY matched one of the Peter Levius models .. who also made some porn films, I believe). I still have the text files I drew up then that give the percentage scales to use to give each height, inch by inch, to SP3, D3, M3 and V3, and V4.
Of course by the Generation 4 figures DS had fixed the issue so one could now change the proportions of body parts, even clothed, which made life easier for me, as little content was made for SP3, who I used for the correct body proportions, and I'd had had to learn how to convert V3, M3 and D3 clothing to SP3 the hard way, with a lot of work in CR2 files with a text editor and a lot of DFormers. But I have continued taking great care to have my main characters their actual heights - already known by me - within DS trhough scaling, especially as DS uses real world units so DAZ PA props, door heights, table heights etc ought to be their real world sizes. And I carried on scaling figures, because the default female of every generation tended to be around a reality-average shattering 5' 11" 99th percentile against the real world average 5' 4", and the female character - 5' 6", which is the 75th percentiile for women in the US and UK - who I've made a verion of with every DAZ main female figure from ... actually Victoria 2 and Stephanie 2 (my first ignorant purchases from DAZ, before understanding enough and rapidly getting V3 then SP3), through the 3s, 4s, Genesis, G2F, G3F and G8F. And with all of them I was checking the real world heights of the figures against the scale prop and in DAZ's internal cm units, and as I scaled characters to the height they were supposed to be. And measure-mertric heights given in DAZ Original character store promos were always correct within DS - it says on Freja 8's promo page, for example, thast she's 5' 8", and that's also what i get using measuremetrics on her, AND she's 5' 8" according to my ruler prop and the DS ytrans of putting something on top of her head from the ground (converting from cm).
So, I took a complete break from all this from just about when GF8.1 came out until recently, and I have been until just a few days ago carrying on with G8F and G8M. But having been shocked to find that the DS6 Beta I'd been ignoring renders 10 times faster than DS4.24 (which I hadn't realised couldn't use my RTX 5070 GPU, whereas DS6 DOES use it) when the 'proper' DS6 release happened, I thought maybe I should look at maybe using, or at least trying, Genesis 9. While I hadn't been using it, I had read and was really pleased to see the claimed Geneis 9 emphasis on real world proportions and sizes, and had glanced at a number of the the Genesis 9 DAZ Original figures and was VERY surprised, given the history above, and delighted to see there were DAZ Oriigininal female figures who were 5' 4", the real world average in the US and UK, and 3 and 2 and even 1 inch! Shock after two and a half decades of 99th percentile height women figures. But the last two nights, when I had a real look, I was: WHAT THE ACTUAL F$%&!!!!
I started playing with G9 by having a go at creating a female character who would be noticeably muscular for a woman (but not some She Hulk - realistically muscled for a non-steroid using but hard training woman with good genes for it), and 5' 8". And, there are several DAZ Original Genesis 9 women who are either noticeably somewhat muscular by default, or who have a noticeably muscular DAZ original add-on shape for that character, and there's usually moe support for DAZ Original characters in morphs in clothes etc. So, I loaded up, side-by-side into DS, a number of them to look at and see if one took my fancy as a base for me to then refine with more morphs of various types into this character I wanted to create. There they stood in DS, side-by-side - Freja 9 (with her bulk morpoh applied), Kara 9 Buff, Kristina 9 Athletic, Van Helsing 9 and Zahara 9 Muscular. Saw they were all different heights, which I remembered they were supposed to be from the store promos, but out of habit after over 22 years I then loaded up my ruler prop, showing ft and inches, always matching DS's ytrans in cm, and ...
Figures:
Freja 9. Promo page says measuremetrics says she is 5' 9.8" (177.4 cm), shade under 5' 10" and the tallest. SHe is NOT 5' 10". She is 6' 2 1/2 in (189.48 cm). Now, we mere mortals don't have access to G9 figuremetrics so I don't know if the one PAs and DAZ's own artists can use is screwed up, but I assure you, just load Freja 9 up, create a plane flat on the floor at her feet, and then Ytrans it to the top of her head and look at the number DS itself tells you is its height from 0 at the top of her head, i.e. her height: 189..48 cm = SIX FEET TWO AND A HALF INCHES, not five feet ten.
And it's the same with all of them. Character: actual height within DS / store page claimed 'measuremetrics' height ...
Freja 9: 6' 2 1/2 in = 189.48 cm / MM 5' 9.8" (177.4 cm)
Kara 9 (Buff): 5' 11 1/4 in = 180.920 cm / MM Height: 5' 6.5" (169.0 cm) - obviously modelled on Katee Sackhoff playing Kara Thrace on BSG, store page claimed height is Katee's actual height, but the ACTUAL height within DS is MUCH taller.
Kristina 9: 5' 9 in = 175.38 cm / MM Height: 5' 4.4" (163.6 cm) or Muscular Height: 5' 6.2" (168.2 cm). That one is very bizarre. The Kristina Muscular add-on store page says 'Athlete Kristina has hit the gym harder and added a few inches' - er. to her biceps and quads measurements one would expect, but it gives her a measuremetrics height two inches taller than the base Kristina 9 page gives her, and THAT'S not going to happen from gym work. And in fact they are bnoth the same height within DS, 5' 9", which is a lot taller than either 5' 4" or 5' 6", average for a woman and 75th percentile.
Van Helsing 9: 5' 11.38 in = 181.30 cm MM 5' 10.8" (179.8 cm) This is THE ONLY ONE that is close, only being a little over half an inch taller than claimed on the store page.
Zahara 9 (Muscular): 6' = 183 cm / MM 5' 7.3" (170.9 cm) Five inches taller than she is supposed to be.
(Oh, and I did check - the assorted Bulk, Buff, A|thletic and Muscular add-on morphsd do NOT chaneg teh ehigth wiht any of them - which is as it should be.)
First, this is just some weird ongoing slopiness. And secondly, when DAZ emphasise - EMPHASISE - that one big Genesis 9 benefit is it's all about realistic huan proportions and realistic human heights etc, this is just so ridiculous and makes a nonsense of the cliams. And means that yet again DAZ are peddling a horde of REALLY tall women - and this does actually show up if they are set against props/scenery that has actually been made to real world scales by other PAs.
Did somebody mess up making the figuremetrics for the G9 measuremtrics, what, years ago now, and every DAZ figure creator and PA has been blindly using it, and NOBODY has bothered to check it very simply within DS and notice the screw-up? All it takes is to load a figure, create a 1m square plane primitive at 0 0 0 and ytrans it to the top of the figure's head then read the dial. Sheesh. So contrary to the DAZ sales blurb I have to carry on checking and scaling all my figures just like before. Rrrrrgh!
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Comments
Oh, just to add i've checked this in both DS 4.24 and DS6, so it's not a DS6 issue. The heights on the store pages are wrong, and despite the Genesis 9 sales blurb the Genesis 9 DAZ Original female characters [1] are, overall, a horde of incredibly tall women, like all the generations of Victoria before them.
[1] I haven't had the strnegth to check the male characters, but if the fault is a mess up in the figuremetrics, I experct i'll find the same and that ALL the DAZ G9 men should be, if in a historic setting, in a circus or freak show, or if modern shoudl just be a team of basketball players. QA? What's that then? Oh, I seem to rememger the QA team at DAZ getting cut back in 2006 or whenever ...
The height's presented on the store pages are correct, based on my testing, so something is messed up in your g9.
When i tested Freja, Kara and Zahara, in a "clean"(essentials and these figures only) g9, all three matched the height stated, when compared to a plane primitive of the same size.
Try loading up a g9 base, and check if it's 170cm/5'7", and if anything is active that shouldn't be in the "Currently Active" section of the Parameters tab.
DAZ Studio 4.24
The free Wall Measuring prop by HerYun and Measure Metrics are my referencies in size.
As long they aprove each other, I am good.
(BTW: turns out, that most of the environment props - especially architecture props are to big in size. I'm usually scaling down Stonemason items to 85% in order to fit the DAZ universe size.)
I just have Freja 9 so I can only say the height data on the product page might not be 100% accurate but at least not that wrong ~
I tried measuring the character by using three ways: 1) with a plane ; 2) with a simple tape; 3) with a tape linked to a rigid follow node binded with the vertex on the figure's head top ( which should be the most accurate way...). Then I got:
1) 177.50 cm (177.60 cm - 0.10 cm of the plane's height (thickness)); 2) 177.56 cm; 3) 177.51 cm
I personnaly prefer to the measure result of 177.51 cm ...
So, as DrunkMondey said, 1stly make sure you're using a "pure Freja" for a measurement ~~
Well, I've done the same routine 3 times, twice in DS6 and once in DS4.24. Each time, I started DS, empty scene as always with me; then loaded Freja 9 Bulky, Kara 9 Buff, Kristine 9 Athletic, Van Helsing 9, Zahara Muscular, all just clicking on the .dufs in my content library, in My Library/People/Genesis 9/Characters, the original Actor files installed by DIM. The ONLY thing I did to them then was open the xtrans property and move them into a line, side-by-side to compare them, and NOTHING else, and certainly no scale adjustment. Of course they will all have scale adjustments in the original .duf files as they are all supposed to be different heights. And I loaded my ruler prop (well, prop with two parented props for the sliders) and ytranslated the vertical slider. And moved the perspective camera around. NOTHING ELSE. Same results each time. Oh and I then loaded Freja 8 to check that a G8F original DAZ character figure loaded at the right size, which it did each time making her the expected 5' 8".
If, all 3 times, and in both DS 4.24 and DS6, the G9 figures all had their scales further adjusted, I didn't do it. And i have no idea how one would set DS 4.24 AND DS6 to apply some scale change to every G9 character loaded, different sessions, DS having been closed in between; let alone do that while not scaling a G8F character on loading.
So, if those G9 characters have been designed right for the expected heights, and the .dufs downloaded and installed by DIM are what they should be, WHY ON EARTH are both my DS 4.24 and DS 6 modiying the scales to make the G9 characters significantly taller - and not a G8F?
You are talking to someone who is completely incapable of loading a new M16. coke can or many other things without then loading the ruler prop and dchecking the mesurements, and scaling if required.
I am still very happy with my 'Measure feet' AKA 'Scale RS1' prop (well, prop with two parented props for the sliders I first downloaded from the freestuff section of the Other Place in 2004, pre the very first DS, but I've just had a look and it doesn't appear to be available any more. The numbers and foot and inch division marks are actually modelled, not textured.
Because your library might have a morph that is misfiring. That's what the poster above asked you to check for. And that's why they asked you to measure a pure G9 figure with nothing applied.
I HAVE measured a pure G9, as in the original Genesis 9 actor file in People/Genesis 9. Did that yesterday. And with nothiing applied by me after loading it is similarly over sized at about 5' 11 1/2". (Again, oddly what teh default height of the earlier generation default females was).
My problem is that, looking at Currently Used I can see there are a number of relevant parameters at non-zero or non-100% values (depending on the paarameter), like the Proportion Height, Proportion Larger, Proportion Hand Size, Proportion Leg Size and Scale. But they all show a Raw value of 0% or 100%, not the boosted actual Value, they are clearly not at the increased values because of changed defaults, and all the values have a LOT of Controllers, but I can't find any controller that's actually at a value to account for these values in those parameters. I mean, for example, Proportion Height has about 50 controllers, but not one of those 50 controllers appears to be dialled at all to account for Proportion Height showing a value of 10% when the raw value is 0%. I think there has to be a faulty modifier channel formula in ... some G9 morph, but I can't find a way to identify it, and it is affecting EVERY G9 figure I load.
Once upon a time a long time agoi knew how to enter a value in a DSON file so that it altered the value by that amount instead of setting the value to that amount. If I could remember how, I could create a shaping preset that just corrected for whatever this is. But it would be much better if I could just find and fix or delete the faulty data file, but i'm stuck how to locate it.
I appreciate I'm a dinosaur, but to me logic dictates that if every G9 character is affected, then your base files may be at fault. Do you think it may be worth uninstalling and reinstalling the Essentials packages?
Dammit. If the faulty controller's not showing up in Currently Used (I always have Show Hidden Properties ON, obviously) the faulty controller must be faulty in a way that the formula (what we used to call ERC) generates an output even though that controller is at 0, so DS THINKS it's not currently used and isn't displaying it.
So, affected parameter with the least controllers is Proportion Hand Size with 9 ...which is a lot betetr than 50 or 30. I guess there's nothing for it but to dive into the data directory, and load up those controller morphs into my text editor and check the formulae until i find the faulty one. <Sigh> Oh for when I didn't have the constant pain, and permanent brain fog and memory that disappears second to second as side effects of permanent prescription pain meds, like in the old days of DS, when people at DAZ sometimes sent me problems to investigate and I enjoyed the hunt ... I could do without this now.
Even loading the default G9 loads in all the channels and formulae from the other G9 packages installed in the data folder. I think it's more likely one of those has messed up ERC formulae, so I've narrowed it to 9 and am going to check the relevant formulae in those morph data files for anything that produces a value when that morph is at zero. The affected Genssis 9 proportion and scale channels work and are not showing messed up defaults or anything, so I can't see it could be them, so a re-install of the base package won't do anything. It's some input from outside the Gensis 9 base package channels, so it has to be a fault in one of the other G9 morph packages triggering those base proportion and scale morphs when it shouldn't.
Found the culprit. It's the product M3DLucianoG9. This includes a morph file M3DLuciano_body_ctrl_Proportions.dsf, and in that the channel M3DLuciano_body_ctrl_Proportions is set to 100% by default. So if this product is installed in G9, this chanel is active at 100% whenever any G9 is loaded, doesn't show up in Currently Used in the parameters tab, and it is a controller for Proportion Height, Proportion Scale, Proporion Hand size and Proportion Leg Length, and causes those all to be dialled up by a specified amount, affecting ANY other G9 character while this one is installed. Moved this product's folder out of the data folder, and my G9 characters are all back to the right size. I'll edit the default, then move the folder back.
So, if you bought and installed M3DLucianoG9, be advised that it is making ALL your G9 characters bigger than they should be. YOU CAN manually dial that channel down (every time) or uninstall the product when you are not using it, or wait for a fixed update.
Oh, should have said to this: there's nothing complicated about the .dsf files. Learned to read the old Poser CR2, PP2, pz2 etc files when orfiginally using Poser, then when using DS 1-3 when all content was still in Poser format for DS, and DSON files, from DS 4, are a doddle. And, depending on what i'm looking for, and especially when i don't know what i'm looking for, just something wrong, scanning through a .dsf file can be MUCH quicker than working down the parameters pane in DS clicking to open the properties of each channel one by one, and that doesn't show up e.g. formatting errors or missing brackets anyway! Edit mode in the parameters pane, BTW, does NOT immediately display what was the important information in this case. And to fix my copy, the quickest method is replacing 100 by 0 in the text editor and hit save.
Currently Used shows properties with non-default values, not non-zero. I thought at one stage they changed this, but it has reverted if so. The filter options can show non-zero values, or you can zero the figure and then use File>Save As>Support Assets>Save Modified Assets to get a list of things that were zeroed (among others), then cancel it so you don't overwrite something by mistake.
Much quicker, for me, to just load the .dsf file into my favourite text editor and look ... and then edit, fix and save when finding a problem like this.
Yeah, I initially jumped to the wrong conclusion when faced with a real problem, but sorted now. It will affect anyone with that product installed, though they may not notice unless they do something that highlights the increased height of their G9. Someone with the product but who can't fix this themselves may want to report it so the product is fixed and updated. (Don't know about other products fromt eh same PA ... I could look at some ...)
Takes me back, chasing down and nailing down a fault in a product like this.
Maybe I should change the thread title, if that's possible, to the general problem rather than my initial, mistakenly presumed reason for it.
"much" quicker seems hyperbolic. Even if you found it more legible to read the dsf vs property heirarchy, I cant imagine it would be any faster at all than editing in property heirarchy then clicking save modified assets. For anyone in future reading this thread, I would suggest following my advice instead.
You do not have to go one-by-one because all controller details are listed in Property Hierarchy for the property. The only thing you would need to do one-by-one is expanding them. Likewise, once finding the faulty controller, you can also see all subcomponents in Property Heirarchy listed for that faulty controller without knowing which dsf the controls are saved in. (a control/subcomponent relation can be saved with any dsf, not necessarily the one you assume it is saved in).
Maybe a bug report for the Matari3D product M3D Luciano G9 is in order if they have yet to issue a fix.
Wrong.. I'm me, you are you, and it's much quicker for me.
And I woud appreciate it if you stopped addressing me in a condescending way as if I'm some newbie. You may not be familiar with me as I've been away for awhile, and I see you joined in 2018. I joined in 2004 and started using DS the very first day the first public beta (DS 0.9) came out, so to me YOU are the newbie. Finding problems in content for people in the forums used to be 'my thing', and I had enough of a knack for it, usually succeeding with the weirdest probelms by glancing through originally Cr2. PP2 and obj files, then DSON duf files after DAZ finally moved to using their own format for content for use in DS after originally using Poser format when DS 4 first came out, some DAZ staff used to send me cases that had them stumped. So kindly do NOT tell ME how I best do things.
They might have fixed Luciano. (Although if so, they didn't put anything in his readme.) I have him and took a look, and I don't have the same issue. His Proportions slider has normal values and isn't affecting other characters.
According to his product information, his Proportions slider should be completely detached from him. It doesn't activate with his actor/character/shape files; it has to be activated separately with either his Proportions ON preset or with the slider.
@lilweep Thank you for all the explanations. To me it is difficult to read ERCs and understand what they do. Is there some tutorials you can advise ?
you can google AllStereo's guide for ERCs. They are the only person I am aware of who made a comprehensive tutorial, although maybe it's a little overkill for what is actually quite a simple process. https://www.renderosity.com/freestuff/items/81207/tutorial-daz-studio-erc-feature
Most common ERCs you will see use only these three types:
The other two types are not used as often
If you are using complex combination where a Subcomponent is controlled by say a DeltaAdd Controller, a Subtract Controller, and a Keyed Controller, just be a bit careful and do testing, because Keyed and Subtract may behave in strange ways in their order of operations which I have yet to fully understand.
@lilweep That is awesome thank you.