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blue_

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Leana

blue_ said:

Hello, I need a bit of an explanation regarding an older Figure. First of all, I’d like to know how Clothing works with Genesis 8 Figures. When I load the Base Figure and then load a piece of Clothing, it fits the Body Shape perfectly. When I load a Character onto the Base Figure, the Base Shape is modified using "Shapes and Morphs" and the Clothing changes right along with it. I would like a somewhat detailed explanation of how this works.

When a morph is set with the "autofollow" parameter, then when you use it DS will look for matching morphs (ie a morph with the same technical name) in any item "fit to" the figure,

• If it finds an existing morph, it will link it to the figure morph, so that it is applied automatically when the figure morph is used.
• If there's no matching morph, DS will automatically create a temporary one, by projecting the deformation on the mesh of the fitted item. Once that temporary morph is generated, it is linked to the figure morph.

Just a quick word on the Genesis 8 Figures again. I don't want to ask about the Structure this time, but rather focus on what "Weight Mapping" actually is. I think I’ve grasped that a Genesis Figure is built around a Bones. I don't want to go into too much Detail about the Rigging itself, I already know how to move the Figure.

Now for my actual Question. My understanding so far is that Victoria 4 Figures do not use "Weight Mapping". Could someone explain to me how this Figure is structured, then?

V4 indeed uses a different rigging system, which is usually called "parametric rigging".
From memory you define a skeleton with hierarchical bones (linked to a group of vertices in the mesh) and joints where bones meet and will bend (typically you have Side-Side, Front-Back and Up-Down rotations, but you can limit how the joint bends if required)
You then assign spherical falloff zones that use inner and outer spheres of influence to determine which vertices move when a joint is rotated, and the amount of movement the vertices move. IIRC inner sphere is "no influence", outer sphere is "100% influence", and influence is computed linearly between the spheres.

A weight-mapped figure uses influence maps to define how vertices are affected by joint movements, which give you more control than the fallof spheres.

In that case, I’d be interested in knowing a bit more about the Clothing for Victoria 4 Figures. How is this Clothing structured?

The clothing has the same kind of rigging as V4. Bones with the same name as a V4 one will follow the one from V4 when it's posed.

I’ve noticed that when I load Clothing for a Victoria Figure, it fits the Base Figure quite well, however, when I then load a specific Character onto that Base Figure, the Clothing only adjusts roughly to the new Body Shape. Why doesn't this work as well as it does with the Genesis Figures?

V4 predates the Genesis line, she was released in 2006, long before Daz studio 4 and the first Genesis. So a lot of features which were added in Geneis figures later didn't exist yet.

With V4 you have the same system of "if there's a matching morph in the clothes it will be applied automatically" but there is no automatic creation of morphs if there's no matching one.
You can however use a DS feature called "transfer active morphs" to generate matching morphs for all the morphs currently in use which don't already have a match. 

Finally, a Question, can Clothing designed for Victoria 4 Figures be re-rigged in Daz Studio so that it behaves like Genesis Clothing? Is there a Function in Daz Studio that allows me to use Victoria 4 Clothing just like Genesis Clothing? Is there perhaps a Product that offers such a Feature? 

No, there's no way to make it follow all morphs automatically when used with V4, only the transfer active morphs command. 

blue_

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jmucchiello

blue_ said:

Does the development of a previous Figure cease completely whenever a new one is released?

"Development" finishes when the figure is released. Once released it doesn't get more "development".

I think you meant does "support" of a previous figure cease. And again, yes, Daz stops making assets for figure n-1 when they release figure n because they want adoption of the new figure. But PAs continue to support older figures until they decide it costs more to support them than they make from the products for the older figure. That's why for a while there were even G3/G8/G9 assets being made. Now some PAs do and some PAs don't support G8.

crosswind

blue_ said:

Now I’m even more confused. So, is the Clothing rigged exactly the same way as the Genesis Figure?

Nope, not the same as Leana said above. The clothing for V4.x are rigged in Poser AFAIK (I've never been a Poser user...) but the clothing for Genesis figures are rigged in DS with Transfer Utility... and its approach is fairly different from the one in Poser.

That’s how I understand your Explanation, I load the Genesis Figure, then I load a Piece of Clothing. It fits the Base Figure perfectly. If I were to scale the Genesis Figure up or down significantly, the Clothing would scale along with it to the same extent. Is that roughly correct?

That's correct... a sort of "conforming" (that's why the rigged wearables are also called "conformers")...  because the clothing has "skin binding" to the figure's bones. No matter you change the figure's shape or merely the Scales of bones (Node...), the clothing will follow.

I need a bit more explanation now, are "Morph" and "Shape" the same Thing? If I change the Size of a Body Part, that is a Morph? I apologize in advance for the Example, but I think it should make it clear to everyone what I mean, if I enlarge the Breasts from size A to size F, is that a Morph or a Shape?

Not the same thing. A Morph is defined as a group of vertices that can deform a mesh. It's also called a Delta so as to move the vertices along a certain direction. In DS, Morphs are literally shown as Properties in Parameters pane. A Shape is just a general term to describe a Geometry of a figure / prop etc. in DS. So, in other words, a Shape is just a geometry of whatever an object / figure that can be seen in DS' Viewport, Morphs are used to deform the Shape(s).

Just a quick Point about the Victoria 4 Figure again, does that mean it makes no difference to the Clothing whether the Figure has a "Weight Map" or not?

As for V4.x, correct, it makes no difference since both of V4.x figure and its clothing have no General Weight Mapping. Be noted, there's also a "way of weight calculation" when rigging the clothing to V4.x in Poser...as "spherical data" to define the falloffs as Leana mentioned.

When working with a Victoria 4 Figure, if Body Shape changes are manually loaded onto the Figure, do these count as Morphs as well? For instance, I have a Problem where a Piece of Clothing fits the Base Shape perfectly, but once I load a Character with specific Body Shape adjustments, the Clothing no longer fits the Body correctly, it doesn't quite adapt to the new Shape. Why does this work with the Genesis Figure but not with the Victoria 4 figure?

Yes, they're called Partial Body Morphs (PBMs). You can find them in Parameters pane accordingly. For Genesis figures in DS, there's a mechanic of "Auto Follow", so all PBMs (with Auto Follow enabled...) can be automatically transferred from the figure to the conformers (clothing, accessories, etc.). But for non Genesis figures, there's no Auto Follow triggered, so you have to use the function of Transfer Active Morphs so as to make the clothing a "perfect fit" on V4.x.

I might have assumed there would be backward compatibility Features in Daz Studio, like those allowing older Figures to utilize some of the capabilities of the Genesis Figures.

There ARE backward compatibilities in DS especially across Genesis generations as well as their Assets, but the "compatibilities across the assets from DS to Poser" is a different thing... 

I have a Question out of curiosity, Victoria 4 was released back in 2006 for both Poser and Daz Studio, and Daz Studio itself must have been released around that same time. Was the decision made then to stop focusing on the Victoria 4 Figure and develop the Genesis Figures instead? Does the development of a previous Figure cease completely whenever a new one is released?

Though the first version of DS was released in 2005 and it supported Poser assets from very beginning, Victoria figures were still developed in Poser... they're still Poser figures. In other words, Poser figures and Daz3D Genesis figures belong to "different product lines". 

However, even after V4.0 was released, V4.2, an add-on, was then released as a part of V4's lifecycle.  So to me, the "development" was not really ceased... though I have zero idea about how Zygote  Daz3D thought of their strategy at that time...

 

Leana

For the record, Daz split from Zygote in 2000, long before V4.

crosswind

Leana said:

For the record, Daz split from Zygote in 2000, long before V4.

Okay, thanks ! So Victorias were developed by Daz3D not Zygote. 

blue_

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nemesis10

So many questions!  
Poser does use a different rigging system. Zygote does still exist; they make medical 3d models now. Zygote/Daz3d did develop all the models. Poser does have models that it created for itself. People in the past discussed the exact same things they do now; they complained about prices, speculated about new features etc. Direct messaging is a bit like calling people blind; almost nobody likes blind phone calls from strangers about the past and see it as an interruption.  I use the feature for stuff too personal and private for the forum and have had great interactions with creators in particular. I don't know too much about retrofitting technology from Genesis figures to older figures. I gather that some aspects are impossible and that it would be an insane amount of work.  There isn't too much demand for it either. Poser and Daz Studio have grown so far apart that I think of them as two different species.

Leana

blue_ said:

Things are starting to become clearer now. I had previously assumed that Victoria 4 was both a Daz Studio and a Poser Figure. It’s good to know that she is strictly a Poser Figure. Are there any Functions that don't work when using Victoria 4 in Daz Studio but do work in Poser?

V4 is indeed primarily a poser figure. She's the first of the Daz figures which was provided with Daz Studio materials (for 3DL) but she's not a figure made specifically for DS like the Genesis line.

Most V4 content made for poser works in DS, There are however a few exceptions:

• poser dynamic hair doesn't work at all in DS
• poser dynamic clothes load as static props in DS. They often play well with dForce if you apply a dForce modifier though.
• A lot of content for V4 only has poser materials. DS only reads a few basic properties of Poser materials so you will usually need to adjust materials in DS.
• A small number of custom morphs for V4 use a tech called "PMD injection", which is specific to poser. 
• At the time V4 was released, there was a difference in the way Poser and DS handled scaling along individual axes. A handful of products rely on the way Poser handled scaling and therefore don't work as intended in DS.

I wasn't actually aware until now that Clothing for Victoria 4 Figures was rigged in Poser. 

Either in Poser or using DS figure setup tools, which are able to do parametric rigging. But not using the transfer utility like Genesis clothes, as that is for weight mapped figures.

Does Poser use a different Rigging System? 

Poser offers 3 types of rigging:

• Parametric rigging with spherical falloff zones => the one V4 and earlier Daz figures use, compatible with DS
• A variant of parametric rigging which uses "capsule" falloff zones, introduced in Poser 8 => not compatible with DS. It was used for a handful of figures produced by the owners of Poser like the P8 base figures.
• Their own version of weight mapping, introduced in Poser 9 IIRC => not compatible with DS. Used for the Poser base figures since P9, La Femme and L'Homme, and the Poser version of Dawn.

Is there actually a Feature in Poser, like the one for Genesis Figures, where the Clothing conforms to the Body?

At the time V4 was released there was only the "if there's a matching morph in the clothes it will follow". That's why having morphs in clothes to support the main morph packs was a big selling point.

Later on there was an utility (morphing clothes IIRC) released which enabled you to transfer morphs to clothing like the "transfer active morphs" in DS does.

Poser also introduced a morph brush which helped adjusting clothing if needed.

I've not used recent versions of poser but AFAIK they have a "fitting room" which likely helps with fitting clothes.

 Would it work if I re-rigged a Piece of Clothing for Victoria 4 Figures in DAZ Studio? If the Clothing is re-rigged, would it then work just like it does for the Genesis Figures? 

You can't rig clothes for V4 with transfer utility as V4 is not weight mapped. The clothes need to use the same kind of rigging as the base figure.

How can I activate this "Transfer Active Morph" function? Do I need to activate it individually for all clothing items as well as the Victoria 4 figure?

From memory, it's available from the context menu when you right click on V4.

You use it on V4 and it affects all items fit to her.

Now I’m a bit curious. I just double-checked and realized that DAZ has actually been around since 2000, I had previously assumed it started a bit later. Does the Original Company, Zygone, still exist? 

Yes. They create 3D models for other markets, notably medically accurate models.

Did DAZ also develop the Victoria 1 Figure? That one was released in 1999. 

The division of Zygote which later became Daz developed the "Millennium woman" and "Millennium man" figures, which were later renamed Victoria and Michael.

Poser was released back in 1995, did Zygone develop Figures for it right from the start?

I know they developed the base figures for Poser 4, "P4 nude woman" aka "Posette" and "P4 nude man" aka "The Dork". Not sure about earlier versions.

Did the Companies that took over Poser over the years also develop their own Figures for it, or do all the older Poser Figures Originate from Zygone / DAZ? I’m referring more to the early years (the 90s and 2000s), nowadays, there are several Figures designed solely for Posers. But I’d be interested in that early Period.

They did develop their own base figures at least for Poser 5 to 11, and a few others sold independently like Miki or the poser G2 line of figures (not to be confused with Genesis 2).

There is one more Point I’m curious about. Not long ago, I discovered that another Platform, one primarily focused on Poser and currently operated by the Company that owns Poser, has a Daz Sub-Forum. One of the Moderators from here is actually active there. He told me that this Sub-Forum has been active since 2003, now I’m wondering what People discussed back then, at a time when Daz Studio didn't even exist yet.

The first public beta of DS was released in early 2004, and I know there was a limited alpha before that. Maybe they created the subforum when the alpha was launched?