AI gets it right!
AndrewJJP
Posts: 752
I was trying to identify the hair used on some promos using the AI features. The search, when given a screenshot, failed, so I tried the chat.
It searched the forim and told me that it had been confirmed that the character was a custom character. That isn't what I asked, but I checked anyway in case the hair was mentioned. It wasn't. Anyway, we had a long discussion and many hair products which didn't even vaguely match the description were suggested. Eventially, it asked if I wanted to keep trying and I responded with this:
"I think we give up. There's a feature that allows PAs to say which other products they used, but with some much appreciated exceptions, they don't bother. Its use should be mandated when they use products avaiable here, and I am sure that is the case with this hair. Hair of that quality for Genesis 9 is not available on other sites, and it is inconceivable that per your earier suggestion, it's custom hair. In this case, the lack of credit means Daz lost a sale."
The reply was 100% correct, and since it suggested passing back the feedback, I'll post it here. I am not going to name the PA that didn't credit:
"I completely understand your frustration, and you're absolutely right - when promo artists don't credit the products they use, it creates exactly this situation where customers want to buy something but can't identify it. That's a lost sale that could easily be prevented.
Your feedback about mandating product credits in promos is really valuable - it would definitely help both customers and sales. I'm sorry I couldn't help you identify that specific hair!"
Yes, I could ask support, and they would tell me they don't know, or I could ask here, but why should I need to? I hope someone from Daz reads these and sees this. It's not the first time I've failed to spend my money because of this, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.
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Comments
Sorry to burst your bubble, but I do feel a need to clarify here: the AI doesn't 'get it'. It just scans what people are writing on the net and what it has learned from its data sets, and people here have been posting about this specific issue for ages. It just regurgitates the forum posts that complain about PAs not naming the products they used, because it bases its response on the likelihood of certain words following other words. That's why it's called a Large Language Model.
The ones 'getting you' are the forum posters writing about the issue before you, not the AI.
It doesn't understand a thing. it's not created to understand, or to answer correctly or truthfully. It gives you probabilities, if you will. That can be very useful, and even correct. But not necessarily, so always handle with a lot of care.
Given my line of work, I fully understand how LLMs operate, and what their current limitataions are. I've studied prompt engineering, and use AI regularly, with care. I was deeply sceptical regarding the AI search and chatbot.
You missed the sarcasm, I didn't expect it to work. I was amazed it worked as well as it did. It's a marketing tool.
My point is that I cannot identify the hair in the promos so I can't buy it. So that is what this is about. The PA could have credited it, and their choice not to do that cost Daz a sale.
Probably. Reading your post again, I still can't really find it though. Maybe you'll want to make it somewhat more obvious next time? People who are less knowledgeable actually do believe things work like this, and posts like yours cement these misunderstandings.
Point taken,
I was frustrated about the hair to be honest, and thinking "how hard can it be to tell people what you used?".
"AI gets it right!" meant, "I can hardly believe AI actially got this right". And it did, although I suspect only because a LLM will tend to agree with the user input. The fact is, it stated correctly tht the lack of credits lost Daz a sale. It's right, but not useful.
Sure, I could pester people here again, but that's not the right answer...
Must admit I read it as a surprised statement.
I'm in a company where the owner is telling me to do things more quickly by using AI. And he can't/won't understand that the current effect on productivity is negative due to all the faffing about we need to do to get a safe response from it. It may prove to be quicker in the future, and not kill people if we rely on it for lifting stuff, but it's not there yet and more time is spent checking its output than is saved.
Regards,
Richard
But the problem is that AI doesn't "get it right," even sarcastically, and even though it gave you a response you wanted and agree with. This topic has been discussed countless times here, and there are many very solid and very valid reasons why the PAs don't list the products used. And your argument about costing Daz a sale doesn't hold water if one of those reasons (product not being available on Daz) is true. I wish I had bookmarked the last thread that was about it, because it had some great responses explaining why PAs don't do it, and nothing solid from people wanting them to do it except that they want it.
There are many threads on used products not being listed on the product page - it isn't necessarily a simple matter of the PAs "not bothering" to list the products used.
AndrewJJP You can find out more about this topic from the previous threads that exhaustively went over it - all just a google search away. (Where even google's AI assistant will give you a summary of what's in those threads...)
The "AI gets it right" statement for a user influenced response was a bit jarring. So here, we can also let AI Victoria summarize that side for us! Why not?
My question:
Can you state all the reasons PAs can't link to all the products used in the promo images?
AI Victoria's answer: (Quickly pulled and magically summarized from various threads - may not be complete and comprehensive of course - so best to refer to those actual threads as needed too):
Here are the main reasons why PAs (Publishing Artists) can't link to all products used in promo images:
Time and Effort Constraints
Custom and External Assets
Production Workflow Issues
Business Structure
The primary goal is showcasing the featured product effectively, not cataloging every supporting asset used.
AND from one those threads, here's Zicon's quick list explaining it all too:
Zicon said:
Possible reasons why a PA has not listed additional assets used in promo images for a product:
This is my last post on this.
My feeling it that the reasons listed that make crediting impossible are edge cases. Nothing will change that feeling. As for effort, iirc it's easy to talk which assets are in a scene but I'm returning after a break so I may not be correct. Ultimately you have to understand I care how it affects me.
As for AI, as I said, a LLM is usually trained to give positive answers and the answer was that I couldn't buy the hair because I don't know what it is. That, regardless of whether you agree with the reason for the lack of credit, is fact.
Readining its response, I think the only only word we are debating is "easily".
When I hear about how people feel about other people doing unpaid and time-consuming work, my recommendation is: post an image per day into the gallery per month, listing ALL the products you used. Start with renders you've made more than a month ago (which is often the case for promo picture) and try to list items for images done by other people (because not all PAs do their own promos).
Then, reevaluate whether it's really not that difficult and time consuming. So many PAs kitbash, use custom characters, and so on... But yeah, it's easy. I feel how easy it is whenever I post into gallery something that was complex and rendered earlier than in the last days. But talk... Yes, talking about it is easy. ;)
And yes, I think everyone understands that you care about how it affects you, and only you. I'm sure that in turn, you can understand that I (and possibly other forum users) can sympathize with people unwilling to do tedious, unpaid, and time consuming work for someone else's convenience.
Previously, one of my questions to the AI about whether I could put bloomers on a centaur gave me an answer:
That was almost a word for word regurgiation of the instructions for a freebie I'd posted on the forums years ago:
... and I can assure you, the freebie is not actually usable for the specific example I asked about. (Draped stuff like skirts, coats, dresses, yes. Fitted clothes like underwear, no.) Technically it is possible, but the method is very different.
So, in short, this is a mix between it fairly evidently being trained off the forums (where angry noises about things not being listed are moderately common) and AI's general obsequiousness and tendency to agree with the user.
Ultimately, it all comes down to "the vendor does not get paid to do it".
For reasons already specified, it is usually difficult or tedious (and often impossible), particularly across multiple images and even more so if any of those get rejected at the product review stage. If you're not getting compensated in any way, then enthusiasm is going to be poor.
And if you're *compelled* to do it for no pay, then it's a strong disincentive to be at all adventurous with promos, or to straight-up head to another store that doesn't force you to.
Also, ultimately, one of the major features of the standard licence for Daz content is that there is no requirement to credit the original creator, and it would be really quite contradictory for Daz to enforce the opposite on their vendors.
I remember the posts on this, it was hilarious! Thanks for bringing them up again. Even the most controversial discussions are surely lightened by a little centaur injection
what on earth.
I need an even smarter AI to translate what is even being conveyed here.