How do I Add the Missing Shine to Hair for 3Delight Renders?
Mage 13X13
Posts: 452
I'm working with Aiko 3 and the Mechgirl suit made for her, along with the Mitsu Hair, which has plenty of awesome morphs to make it look awesomely breezy. The only thing is, the textures for the hair, while looking really good, are missing that shine you like to see on long beautiful hair. The kind of shine I want is subject to the direction the light is coming from, and if there are more than one light, it reacts to each light acording to its direction and color. I know it is possible for Aiko 3's Mitsu Hair, because the product's Promo images show that kind of shininess. There has to be some way to achieve the shiny effect for this awesome hair; but even with all of my experience, trying in the Surfaces Editor, I cannot get it to work!
So does anyone here know how I can get this to work the way I need it to? Or is the shiny look added in postwork in those promo images?
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Hair product: https://www.daz3d.com/mitsu-hair-for-aiko
I have never used 3Delight.
There is a hair color called 'Highlights', have you tried that?.
If that doesn't work I would look in the surface settings on Glossiness. Both the value, and if there is image in it.
You should probably also be aware that there needs to be some light that can reflect in the hair.
Moved to Technical Help as it is not a Daz Studio application topic.
So what kind of topic is it? I use Aiko 3, and Mitsu Hair in DAZ Studio. Please let me know, because I rarely use these forums, and it seems like I am choosing the right place to post a thread, because of the application I am using where the problem arises. If it is not a DAZ Studio application topic, how am I supposed to know where to post my Q&A thread?
I'm sorry if this seems like a complaint, because I don't intend it to be that. My intention is to learn where to post threads like this one and others that I might post at a later time. Not knowing the right place in these forums is beginning to cause me confusion. All I really want is help with a problem that I thought would be covered in the DAZ Studio section.
Since this thread has been moved here, why are the replies not here also? I kind of think they should be!
One other thing I must not forget to do is change my bookmark to bring me here instead of to the original section; So I'll get that done straightaway.
Edit: Well I go to make the bookmark changes, then click on the new one to make sure it brings me back here, and when I get here, the other comment by felis has been added. Not sure if it had not yet made it to this location or was here but for some reason I was not able to see it, or you 'Richard Haseltine' just got it moved; but thanks anyway!
I don't know why or how, but some weird things seem to happen with me in these forums.
Again, I thank you!
Thanks for your reply, felis.
This hair color called 'Highlights' that you mentioned; is it in the textures for the A3 Version of Mitsu Hair? I ask, because I have never heard of it! Will it work the way I described that I need it to work, or is it actually just a simulated light sheen for the hair?
Your second suggestion is something I do a lot already, because I am a stickler for making my renders as close to realistic as I possibly can. I actually use the Specular and Glossiness channels in the Surfaces Editor pane a lot. I do have lights which I load from the create menu and edit in the Parameters pane. That said, My efforts at achieving the shine I want for Mitsu Hair for nearly 16 years has not once produced the desired effect. I do have a shader that is called SuperShine Topcoat, that can supposedly add a sheen to certain surfaces, but when I tried it on another hair product, it came out looking unrealistic. I have not yet tried it on Mitsu Hair. It can be adjusted once applied. Do you think it could work?
felis, the 'Highlights' texture is in the Mitsu Hair textures, and I loaded it, The problem is that it changes the color of the hair to brown. So I have loaded it and then added the color I want. I have it rendering to see if it will work, as I write this comment. I want to see if it will actually work the way I need it to. Otherwise I'll just be right back to square one. That said, I noted that the textures load with Specular and Reflection at full Black, so I changed that to full white, and upped the values to full 100%. I always et my Glossiness at 65%, so that has been done also. We shall see what happened here shortly.
Edit:
Well it has rendered, and I am seeing some weird stuff in her hair; almost looks like trash got caught in it.
As it is now late here in Georgia, I'm gonna have to save the file as a scene subset, and return to it tommorrow, ASAP. I'll work on it and when I get a fair looking result, I'll come back to this thread and post a small sized version that we can then discuss way to improve on! For now, I thank you again for your help. I never knew that Highlights texture was there. I just don't know if it is going to be what I really need.
Goodnight.
A very quick comment... It feels strange when a message is moved but there is no judgement or censure; it is just tidying up so someone else can stumble on to your thread at the appropriate place. So:
Your question would be routed to Technical help since you are having a specific problem with a specific product.
If it work on the 'Highlight' then compare surface settings with the hair color you prefer. It might give a hint - also compare images if there is something special in 'Highlight'.
And a note in case you aren't aware. If you are using 3Delight, the current version of 4.24 will be the last to include support for 3Delight. There will come an update for 4.24 (the last?) that removes 3Delight.
I am aware of this. My version is actually 4.10, as my computer won't handle 4.24. If and when I get a good computer with a good nVidea graphics system, I will switch to using Iray. For the moment though, I'll just keep working with what I have. It does a fair job for me, even though it takes a lot of time to achieve good results. I'm not complaining! I like what I am able to do with it.
With 4.10 studio is probably still applying the default surface shader to any Poser content you load in, this is a basic shader, best bet would be to apply one of the other 3DL shaders to the hair, that way you get far more advanced surface settings to play with.
Thanks for that full rundown! It really clears things up for me. At other sites, where technical help is the subject, I don't see this happening, which is why I posted my questions about this.I think this is the better site, as it is more organized. Being organized makes things easier to find. So you are good with me. I just was not used to seeing this happen.
I don't know much about it, or if it will work with Mitsu Hair for Aiko 3. I do have most of the Mil 3 Gen X morphs for Genesis, including Aiko 3, however I am using a morph for Aiko 3 called Sarina, and matching that look with the admittedly better A3 for Genesis version is an exercize in trial and error. I have lot's of slider dial morphs for Genesis, but Sarina is a rather cute but unique character, and she has dark skin that makes her even more interesting. I do have the Mitsu Hair for Genesis 2 Female(s), which is easy enough to fit to Genesis. In fact I am rather skilled at fitting most hair to almost any human figure, and making it look like it belongs. The Aikos, through the different generations, all have differently shaped heads, with Aiko 3's defalt head being the most Anime of all the ones I have. The Sarina Head Morph looks a lot more realistic, rather than Anime.
Even if I were to be able to make the Genesis version look like Sarina, in shape though, the skin textures would not transfer well from the Mil 3 version, and the other product I am using for her is DAZzling Gaze, made specifically for the Mil 3 figures. Those textures won't work with Genesis either, so far as I have experienced. Something to do with the UV maps, I think.
But all that said, you have given me the Idea I might need to get this to work better. The G2F version of Mitsu Hair can be manually fitted to Aiko 3's head, even in its Sarina shape. So thank you for that Bejaymac. You may have led me to the right solution.
I bet it works perfectly in Poser using Firefly so like the OP, I too would think this is a DAZ studio 3Delight render engine question but what do I know
I can't find a G2F version in the store, but I do have both the A3 and Genesis versions, and sadly they both use the default shader and have the exact same surface settings (I've checked the Mat presets).
What you need to realise is that Poser Mat settings and poorly converted to DS settings are garbage, and that you need to modify/change the shader/surface settings o suit your needs.
Nothing new in that, most of us old hands have been doing that in DS for nearly 20 years.
Oh and Wendy are you trying to rejoin our little club.
Welcome, Wendy!
Bejaymac, I do understand that about Poser Mat settings, but so far as I can tell, a lot of the Poser format textures were optimized for DAZ Studio 4.0 way back in 2009, or earlier. Yes, things have changed for DAZ Studio since that time, but even back then I could not get the shine to work for Mitsu Hair.
One note, on something you just posted, are you sure that the Mitsu hair you found is for Genesis, and not Genesis 2 Females?
Well I just checked in my Product Library here at DAZ3D, and it turns out that you are right, it is for Genesis, and not G2F. And the texture maps are exactly the same ones for both versions.
So now comes the question: Could you tell me which shader it is that I need to apply?
I do have a shader that is 3rd party called Supershine Topcoat, which I got at ShareCG before it was shut down, but when I tried it on another hair product, it made the hair appear to be encased in shiny transparent plastic. I'll try it just to see on Mitsu Hair, but I'm betting the results will be the same.
In a way it is a DAZ Studio 3Delight render engine question, but I think it must also have something to do with the methods used to make the hair and textures for it. One thing I plan to try is tweaking the bump maps. Maybe load them in the Displacement channel to see if it will make the surface look more real. There are certain Poser format hair textures that have light reactive properties included, and 3Delight can see that. Nearly all of them have grayscale bump and displacement maps included and in their proper channels. Many of the older hair products are just planes that have the hair images applied to them, and they usually have maps foir several channels; like the Diffuse (color),Transparency or Opacity, Bump and/or Displacement, Specular, Reflection, and sometimes Refraction (though I have no idea why refraction would even be needed). I think the two main channels I need to focus on are Specular and Reflection. I would rather those channels not have the maps though, because if maps are included, I must make my lighting match up to those maps, for that to work and look real. But when I use no specular or reflection maps with Mitsu hair, it makes the planes that the hair texures are on shine, and the hair looks totally unreal.
This is why I started this thread. Hopefully this thread will get some good solutions that work, and be of help to other users that are working with the 3Delight render engine.
When I use the term "light reactive", I'm referring to how some of the light is reflected by individual strands of hair. This creates the most realistic effect of hair shine. It will also be a shine that is the color of the light being reflected. It works best with strandbased hair, but strand based hair is usually high in memory use.
The product that is known as Look at My Hair, in which you can generate the most realistic hair for the 3Delight render engine is a good example of how high the memory use can be. That product can actually use realistic textures, but in this case it is the amount of polygons involved with making a good looking hair product, and to really make it look good, you have to shape it to lay or angle in the right directions. Even though it uses instancing to reduce the amount of memory needed, to get the best results, you still need to have a lot of strands. Also, in my experience with using it, the long hair can be a nightmare to work with and make look good. As far as I know, it's not very convincing at making curly hair; wavy hair can be made, but there is a limit to how wavy the hair can be. I have never seen a rigged 'Look at My Hair' product. Not saying they don't exist, just that I have never seen any.
I know this thread is about Mitsu Hair specifically, as it is the hair I started this thread to get help with, but as it can be of help with other hair products too, I think discussing the different types of hair products would help to hilight why there are problems with hair products of the same type as Mitsu Hair; and it may also help to bring to light the problems we face with the other hair product types.
The main issue is that this is a Poser 4/Pro Pack product (none of the materials have the P5+ shader tree in them), so you have several diffuse maps and a trans map and that's it, as a result there really isn't a lot to work with, as a result most shaders will be of little use, so you are either going to have to make new/manipulate existing textures in a image editor (PS, GIMP etc) or get creative in the ShaderMixer.
Not very experienced in the Shader Mixer of DAZ Studio, although I have used it maybe about 3 to 4 times. I do know how to use PD Howler 12 fairly well, and it does a lot of what Photo Shop and Gimp can do, including the editing of images like what would be needed for that purpose. I plan to try that if I don't achieve my goal by working with the specular, glossiness and reflection channels in the surfaces editor of DAZ Studio. Current experiments are showing some promise, but I may need to do as you say, and take the grayscale map into PD Howler 12 for editing purposes. If it works by using any of these methods, I will upload an image here to show what I have achieved, and I will explain what I did to achieve it. Maybe others will be able to use similar methods on Mitsu Hair or other similarly lacking hair products. As much as I made this thread to get help, I think it is only fair to share any solutions I use successfully in this thread, and describe the method that works.
A hair color called 'Highlights'? Can you tell me where it is available? I will do a search.
As for an image for the Glossiness settings, those may not look right if the image does not match the light direction. I generally don't use them because of that. The Displacement settings could work if I can figure how to tie the Glossiness in with the Displacement. What might work is making a map from the Displacement/Bump image using PD Howler to lighten the grayscale image and save it as a Glossiness or Specular map. I have tried that a couple of times already, buy my values seem to bleed into each other, making the Glossiness look too solid. Perhaps it will require plugging the image into the Transparency settings also, but this Hair uses Opacity, rather than Transparency, and it seems the two do not work in the same way.
Unless the light is really bright, the shine on the hair needs to be subtle but still visible; and if I'm using a secondary and third light, which I usually do, the light from those two lights must be even more subtle, even to the point of being almost not visible in the render for the sheen to work best.
Maybe I'm overthinking this, but that is just some of the factors I have considered for achieving this. With the Displacement map you get a 3D effect from a 2D surface, Bump cand do that a little but misses looking 3D; so I always try to work that part in Displacement rather than Bump. The effect of Displacement allows the light to have subtle differences surround it the simulated strands. With that it should be able to have a hair like sheen, that is dependent on the light directions. So far though this has not turned out to be satisfactory.
I am still working on this, and if I can come up with a good formula, I will post that formula here; meaning I will post all of the things I did, and the exact values I used for each surface settings channel. I won't be able to provide any map I derive from existing ones, but if needed I can explain the method I used to make them. If I can contact the person that made the Mitsu Hair, perhaps I could tell that person about the way to improve the product, and that person may make an updated version implementing the improvements.
This is not exactly what I wanted, but it is at least something. I got the Mitsu Hair to have a kind of shine on it, but not from any lights I created in DAZ Studio. Rather it was for an image I did of the Shuttlestar interior with Aiko 3 and her Mitsu Hair, which is loaded with just the default textures. I loaded the Shuttlestar interior lights and enabled the shadows for all of them. I did nothing for the hair itself, other than tweaking the movement morphs a bit. All lights are at default intensity, and if directionally posed, they are posed in the directions they are when loaded. It seems the light used may have properties that cause old poser hair to have a shine. It may also be due to close proximity of the light to the hair. Looking at the intensity of the main lights, I noted they are at close to 800%. I have not yet fully studied those lights for the purposes of duplicating their properties, but I plan to do so very soon. I want to record the properties of each light, both main and secondaries, then see if I can duplicate them in other environments. None of the lights used are distant lights. The main ones are spotlights, and the secondaries are point lights. There are about 6 or 7 of each in various areas of the interior of the Shuttlestar, and where Aiko is standing, she has perhaps three spotlights shining on her hair.
To see the results, here is a link to the image in my Gallery at DeviantArt: https://www.deviantart.com/agent-0013/art/See-Through-1257035818
If I am successful in my attempt to duplicate the hair shine, I will post the method used here in this thread. Hopefully it will be of used to others.
By the way, at DeviantArt, my Profile Name is Agent-0013.