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Strand based omni suite. I'm confused again

davesodaveso Posts: 7,793
edited May 23 in The Commons
https://www.daz3d.com/li-strand-based-omni-suite Is this only for Laciticis products or all strand based hair, or what?
Post edited by daveso on

Comments

  • nemesis10nemesis10 Posts: 3,790

    You can use for any strand hair.

  • LeanaLeana Posts: 12,758

    From the description: While it's specifically designed as a companion pack for my dForce Strand-Based Hair and Fur products, since these are shaders, they'll work just fine with any strand-based hair.

  • barbultbarbult Posts: 26,234

    I think they are just presets for the things you can set manually in the Surfaces pane when the object uses the OmniHair shader.

  • barbultbarbult Posts: 26,234

    The worst part is there is no user guide (that I can find) to explain what any of these settings categories do. At this point, I am very disappointed in the presentation of this product. The preset thumbnails are often colored images, sometimes pink and green, with no explanation of what those colors mean. On what basis am I supposed to choose one preset over another? Am I supposed to just waste hours clicking on things and trying to figure out what they do? Am I just dense today?  It is not like I have no experience with Strand-Based Hair. I use dForce SBH frequently and use shader presets like Revolution - Omni Shader Presets For Strand Based Hairs frequently and successfully.

  • lilweeplilweep Posts: 2,746

    nemesis10 said:

    You can use for any strand hair.

    Depends on your definition of strand hair. Much of those properties are only relevant to strand hair that can dforce, which is not all strand hair.

    The text for the product says it should work for all strand based hair.  i assume the color, rouhgness, etc will work on any strand hair, even those without dforce.

    I also personally dont know what omni-surface is.  

  • nemesis10nemesis10 Posts: 3,790
    edited May 24

    lilweep said:

    nemesis10 said:

    You can use for any strand hair.

    Depends on your definition of strand hair. Much of those properties are only relevant to strand hair that can dforce, which is not all strand hair.

    The text for the product says it should work for all strand based hair.  i assume the color, rouhgness, etc will work on any strand hair, even those without dforce.

    I also personally dont know what omni-surface is.  

    I would say you are incorrect.   Emperically, you can apply omni shader to anything.  For example, I have the Uncanny Valet character, Vadim for Genesis 9, that includes omni surface textures for the skin along with IRAY uber and PBR skin shaders.  I should mention that onmi shader (originally for hair and fur) and omni surface (for surfaces) are shaders created by Nvidia to produce improved scattering and refraction than their previous IRAY UBER and PBR shaders.  This might interest you: https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/703161/omni-surface-shader-test/p1

    There is a explanation of the settings omni shader hair are introducted here with examples: https://docs.omniverse.nvidia.com/materials-and-rendering/latest/templates/OmniHair.html  The Strand Based Omni Suite gives you granular control of the settings. Also, you might find this thread helpful especially for Canary3d's lovely graphic (ironically shown on a non strand hair... as I said, they are agnostic): https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/719506/omni-hair-shader-manual?srsltid=AfmBOoo0Rj_4WGeH4Ddb4A9CC_bFg_I6BVALTgPqz1ERg4tf7-9tsiZX

    Post edited by nemesis10 on
  • barbultbarbult Posts: 26,234

    nemesis10 said:

    lilweep said:

    nemesis10 said:

    You can use for any strand hair.

    Depends on your definition of strand hair. Much of those properties are only relevant to strand hair that can dforce, which is not all strand hair.

    The text for the product says it should work for all strand based hair.  i assume the color, rouhgness, etc will work on any strand hair, even those without dforce.

    I also personally dont know what omni-surface is.  

    I would say you are incorrect.   Emperically, you can apply omni shader to anything.  For example, I have the Uncanny Valet character, Vadim for Genesis 9, that includes omni surface textures for the skin along with IRAY uber and PBR skin shaders.  I should mention that onmi shader (originally for hair and fur) and omni surface (for surfaces) are shaders created by Nvidia to produce improved scattering and refraction than their previous IRAY UBER and PBR shaders.  This might interest you: https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/703161/omni-surface-shader-test/p1

    There is a explanation of the settings omni shader hair are introducted here with examples: https://docs.omniverse.nvidia.com/materials-and-rendering/latest/templates/OmniHair.html  The Strand Based Omni Suite gives you granular control of the settings. Also, you might find this thread helpful especially for Canary3d's lovely graphic (ironically shown on a non strand hair... as I said, they are agnostic): https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/719506/omni-hair-shader-manual?srsltid=AfmBOoo0Rj_4WGeH4Ddb4A9CC_bFg_I6BVALTgPqz1ERg4tf7-9tsiZX

    Thank you for the useful information and links.

  • nemesis10nemesis10 Posts: 3,790

    I will say that the settings are daunting looking when you first see them but once you understand the principles (melanin decides how much real black hair color you have, roughness decides how shiny, ior how glass or plastic-like, etc...) and realize that the rest are just settings for those principles, it is a lot more intuitive.  Thanks, Barbuilt,  I think I partly just wanted to mention the omni surface skin of Vadim; I am hoping we will get real omni surface skins one day as they could be more realistic than iray Uber and PBR.

  • lilweeplilweep Posts: 2,746
    edited May 25

    nemesis10 said:

    lilweep said:

    nemesis10 said:

    You can use for any strand hair.

    Depends on your definition of strand hair. Much of those properties are only relevant to strand hair that can dforce, which is not all strand hair.

    The text for the product says it should work for all strand based hair.  i assume the color, rouhgness, etc will work on any strand hair, even those without dforce.

    I also personally dont know what omni-surface is.  

    I would say you are incorrect.   Emperically, you can apply omni shader to anything.  

    If you arent using a dforce strand hair, I dont think you can apply one of those shader presets and have it adjust the dforce-specific properties, as those properties will not exist on non-dforce strand hair and wont be relevant.  Generally speaking, i think a large portion of those presets are most relevant to dforce strand hair, as many of the presets seem to be for adjustment of dforce related properties.  Of course, there are other settings for adjusting color etc which will be properties on non-dforce hair too, with am omnihair shader applied.

    There is a explanation of the settings omni shader hair are introducted here with examples: https://docs.omniverse.nvidia.com/materials-and-rendering/latest/templates/OmniHair.html  

    Based on this, I still think "Omni-Surface" as a term is confusing. I guess by "Omni-Surface" they mean Omnihair or a specific implementation of Omnihair.

    Post edited by lilweep on
  • nemesis10nemesis10 Posts: 3,790

    If you arent using a dforce strand hair, I dont think you can apply one of those shader presets and have it adjust the dforce-specific properties, as those properties will not exist on non-dforce strand hair and wont be relevant.  Generally speaking, i think 
     

    You are confusing a few terms:  Strand hair is a type of hair that generated procedurally with dforce hair being a subset of that. Dforce simulated hair that can will be affected by things like gravity is often a subset of that but not necessarily;  there are hairs in the store that can be dforce simulated that aren't strand based but cloth based and there are plenty of dforce hairs that can't be simulated.  The suite only deals with the appearance of of the hair and has nothing to do with simulation or anything else if that is what you mean by other dforce attributes.

    Again, I suggest that you read the links I provided.  Omni Surface and Omni Hair are different implementations of a larger technology involved with making more realistic shaders. They share many attributes but aren't exactly the same.  And as I mentioned, like cloth and strand based hair, this has nothing to do with the ability to simulate.  That is a second technology.  
    People often complain in the forums that they apply a simulation to a  dforce hair product as nothing happens.  They are confusing the dforce simulation property with the dforce shader properties.

  • WendyLuvsCatzWendyLuvsCatz Posts: 40,085

    I don't really use a lot of Strandbased hair myself but I do know Laticus Imagery does put a lot of work into his stuff so wouldn't be too quick to dismiss it as something one could simply do themselves, I suspect there is some shadermixer node sorcery involved 

  • lilweeplilweep Posts: 2,746
    edited May 25

    nemesis10 said:

    You are confusing a few terms:  

    I dont think ive confused anything. 

    Strand hair is a type of hair that generated procedurally with dforce hair being a subset of that.

    There seems to be no standard about what is called strand hair.

    Dforce simulated hair that can will be affected by things like gravity is often a subset of that but not necessarily;

    Yes, which was actually my point that dforce properties are not relevant to all strand hair. Thus we are in agreement about that.

     there are hairs in the store that can be dforce simulated that aren't strand based but cloth based

    I agree, and we are not talking about these.

    and there are plenty of dforce hairs that can't be simulated.

    Yes. There are hairs that have been generated using their proprietary dforce hair strand based hair feature, which although created with this, were not intended to be simulated. The vendors have simply opted to use this feature to generate strand hair.

     The suite only deals with the appearance of of the hair and has nothing to do with simulation or anything else if that is what you mean by other dforce attributes.

    It is concerned with appearance, hair generation (root radius etc), and dforce physics attributes.

     

    Again, I suggest that you read the links I provided.  Omni Surface and Omni Hair are different implementations of a larger technology involved with making more realistic shaders.

    Omnisurface in that link is a specific shader. "Omni-Surface" in the ad copy for the product does not appear to be the same as "Omnisurface" in the link provided. As omnisurface is a specific shader and has nothing to do with hair.

    Anyway, I am spending way too much time in this thread discussing the pedantic minutiae of something i dont really care about.

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    Post edited by lilweep on
  • barbultbarbult Posts: 26,234

    WendyLuvsCatz said:

    I don't really use a lot of Strandbased hair myself but I do know Laticus Imagery does put a lot of work into his stuff so wouldn't be too quick to dismiss it as something one could simply do themselves, I suspect there is some shadermixer node sorcery involved 

    I don't think so. This product description does not say anything about a new shader. The product is described as shader presets for "Omni-Surface Hair and Fur", which really isn't accurate anyway. The shader that these presets apply to is the "OmniHair Root-Tip Blend (MDL)". If you look at the file list, there are some jpg files for "diversity weight" and a LOT of Shader Preset files.

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