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I'm currently working on getting things resolved (if possible) and I'm going to try to avoid too much legal discussions here but will post here as soon as I know anything one way or another.
That said, it's been my understanding that character morphs are a special case because they absolutely require the user to own the original meshes; no one is releasing a complete Genesis 3 mesh, for example.
Clothing -- even bodysuits that essentially copy the figures shape -- are allowed by DAZ's licensing as they are considered "add-ons" and don't compete with the character meshes themselves.
I've probably over-simplified things but I think that's how things work. I'm sure Richard will clarify if I've messed it up, but this is my understanding.
Ah, yes. My understanding of morphs was a bit off.
The vertex data stored in morphs are relative coordinates to the base object, so there's no way a morph creator could be in violation of any licenses.
And, there should be no problem distributing your Toon character shape morphs for G3/G8.
You already have the G3/G8 clones for your Toon characters.
Using those clones, you can create Toon character shape morphs for G3/G8. You can then distribute those created morphs to users.
Users can create G3/G8 clones for your Toon characters based on those morphs and your Toon characters.
This procedure allows users to legally obtain G3/G8 clones for your Toon characters.
However, this assumes users (and you) know how to create reverse morphs using morphs. If they don't, you can include instructions or a script to perform the procedure.
I believe this procedure should work. Are there any oversights?
If it includes part of a previous morph (e.g. export a shape, modify it, and reimport it as a full morph without reversing out the original shape) then yes it would be in violation. As would a morph wholly created by sculpting for figure X that reproduced the shape of Figure Y or one of its morphs.
Morphs include deltas - position chnages - and are allowed, as are fitted items like clothes and hair, despite copyright because daz says they are in its EULA - for add-ons, not for a stand-alone item like a new figure.
Still waiting on permission to include clones with the Omnitoons, and waiting to check on rigging as well. Ten business days down...
If permission to use clones is denied, people might have to make their own clothing clones or make their own clothing.
Here's a quick and only lightly-detailed example of how to make clothing from any figures. There are much better video tutorials on Youtube that you can check out for more details. This sample will use the female base Omnitoon figure.
First, load the female figure into a new scene, select the character, and make a standard geoshell:
I generally unparent the geoshell and move the actual character off to the side. I find this makes it easier to select and delete the character once we move to a modelling program, and by moving the character the geoshell stays in place.
Many people keep the character in place so that in the modeller they'll be able to get a better idea of how their clothing will fit and work. Because I'm just doing a basic bodysuit, I'm only going to want the geoshell. Use the base model without any morphs applied.
Export the scene in either .obj or .fbx format, either will work fine. It's important to note the settings you use, as you want to duplicate them when importing the geoshell back into DAZ Studio.
As mentioned, since I'm just making a basic bodysuit, I select the actual character and delete it.
Once we have just the geoshell, I select and cut any parts I don't want, like the head, hands and feet. At this point, if you just want a shirt or pants, you can delete everything that's not part of the clothing you want. Here is where you can also edit your clothing to punch it up with details like trims, piping, seams, wrinkles, etc. As well, you can select parts of the clothing to create new shader or texture zones. When we're done, export the clothing as an .obj or .fbx file, whichever format you exported from DAZ Studio.
Back in DAZ Studio, delete the geoshell and move the base female back to the zero point.
Import the edited clothing file using the same settings you used to export the file originally (e.g. 1 in = 1 cm)
Once you've imported it, select the bodysuit and apply the DAZ Ubershader to it to make it view and render properly.
Using the Object Transfer Utility under the "Edit" menu, you can select the Omnitoon character and the bodysuit and transfer the rigging info.
If you find you run into any issues with body poke-through, you can experiment with adding a smoothing modifier.
Once you've used the transfer utility, you should be able to apply morphs to the Omnitoon and the bodysuit should match it. Some very extreme morphs might require smoothing or, easier in some instances, hiding the body part poking through the clothing.
Here's the Young morph applied:
Curvy:
Overweight:
And semi-realistic, to try out a few.
If I'm allowed to distribute the model without re-rigging, you can get close results using Genesis 8 poses:
And if you just need some quickie custom clothing, you can just hide parts of the bodysuit:
Thank you for the tutorial. That's pretty straightforward and an easy way to make a clothing base for the toon characters without modeling from scratch. :) A cap for hair should also be able to be made in a similar fashion.
Exactly. As I mentioned, there are far, far better video tutorials online, and the method allows you to make clothing or hair for *any* characters.
Because it uses a character's existing mesh, anything you make this way can't be resold or given away, except in the DAZ store I assume. Should I be allowed to give the toons away, though, you'd have permission to share or sell for anything you make with them.
@CES3D The issue is essentially releasing the base figure geometry - which would be necessary when creating a clone of the figure. Character and part morphs don't include the geometry, just the vertex changes to create the new character/shape.
It isn't really necessary to include G3 and G8 clones with the figures, though, there are tutorials available for setting up clones in DAZ for non genesis figures.
Creating and setting up clones is a bit more advanced than a lot of Daz Studio users and since these have the clones already made, it's the hope that Daz3D will let him release the figures with them. It would be nice for every user, regardless of their ability to make clones or not, to be able to use their Genesis 8 clothing and hair on these figures. :) Here's hoping that Daz3D will allow it!
I'm very much looking forward to these being released so hopefully he'll hear back from Daz3D soon on if it's ok. :)
Actually, the clones don't include any DAZ geometry; they're made by taking the Omnitoon mesh and reshaping it so that it matches the shapes of Genesis 3 and Genesis 8. It's only because it closely matches their shapes that there's an issue... which, of course, seems ludicrous when anyone can download a free copy of DAZ Studio and have the actual 3D mesh -- not just the shapes of them -- for both figures, for free.
Such is the world of intellectual copyright.
My proposal is to include a Morph of the Toon Character for G8, which end-users can then use as a base to create clones of other base figures, such as Genesis generations and V4/M4, for the Toon Character.
Of course, this process requires a certain level of expertise, so you need to include either a detailed manual explaining the steps or a script that automates the procedure.
DAZ's permission would be necessary if you were to distribute clones of G3/G8 for the Toon Character. However, distributing morphs of the Toon Character for G3/G8 should not require permission.
Well, the clone is essentially a morphed Toon Character, and that brings us back to a morph that is a copy of the copyrighted "shape" of Genesis 8, still not allowed, except with permission.
For now, I'm happy just waiting for word from DAZ. The last I heard is that the team is looking into it. If permission is denied, then I'll try figure out a workaround.
Yes, I am also aware that a clone is essentially a morph.
I am not saying that "permission is required to distribute clones, but not required to distribute morphs."
What I am saying is that "permission is required to distribute a clone (morph) of G8 for your Toon Character, but permission is not required to distribute a clone (morph) of your Toon Character for G8."
yes going the other way is allowed and one way you could allow people to create a clone themselves
an option is a toon bodysuit fitted to G8 as a clothing item for it with a handy toon morph
that is actually how I dress Catoon and Barnabus in G8 and G9 clothing (though mine is for only my own use)
I made a bodysuit that is an identical mesh vertex wise for both character's "outfits" but it's own object with it's own unique vertex count and UV's, loose enough to be clothing
I then Autofit to that suit, you just let the user use the G8 suit to create a morph shape for the Toon suit
I was actually thinking along those lines, cutting off the head of the Omnitoon mesh and making it a G8 bodysuit.
Still hoping DAZ lets me distribute them, as it's soooo much easier.
mine are headless and handless as both were too hard to match
Catoon actually has separate boots as the paws to hard too match to Genesis toes so is a solid shoe for both I fit to
they are both other people's figures so even more limited
what I can do though is model clothing for both and the reason I did it
(not made much yet or shared any)
Brilliant and a true master. I have commissioned Steve on three different occasions to make create custom characters. Some I designed others he created from ideas I had. He is absolutely without a doubt . . . simply the best a very kind and caring person. I am not certain I have a need for this product but I am certain your kindnessand generosity is highly . . . highly commendable.
Thanks, hopefully DAZ will let me release them as is. Fingers crossed.
So, here we are. I think it's a Catch-22 situation:
1. Assuming that I do *not* include clones, I do not need any permission from DAZ unless –– as Richard was good enough to suggest – the rigging violates DAZ's copyright.
2. I cannot see how DAZ could claim copyright infringement without examining my characters. They would need to examine them to make that determination. As of yet, they haven't.
As I half-jokingly have said, I probably should have released them and then waited for DAZ to (probably much more quickly) make the determination as to whether they violate any copyrights over shapes or rigging.
To summarize:
1. The actual mesh *is* 100% original, so the mesh itself is fine, legally.
2. The rigging *might* not be okay, depending on how they determine how much of the rigging has to align with their Genesis 8 character before they decide it's "too close", which they can't do without seeing my characters and comparing.
To try to help, I've made the following images (click the preview at the bottom for much bigger images).
First, here's the bones used in the Genesis 8 basic male figure and the Omnitoon basic male figure. It's clear that some are very similar in some places, while others are definitely not.
Second, the heads are obviously radically different, bone-wise. The Genesis head has many, many more bones for their Upper- and Lower-facial rigs, Omnitoons don't even know what those are.
Finally, none of the Omnitoon bones are now named the same as the bones in Genesis 8; if the names are still too close, I can make them more radically different.
I am willing to pay someone to re-rig them if necessary, but I'd rather not pay out too much more if I can help it (retired, fixed income, etc.) just to be able to give them away for free.
Thanks again to Richard, for warning me of possible problems before they became much bigger problems.
NOTE: Edited to remove anything that might tbe construed as "play by play" interaction with DAZ employees.
the safest option is always to use Dork or Posette bone naming as DAZ themselves copied those for their legacy figures
the Autodesk BiPed naming convention seems pretty much universal too
AFAIK they don't consider bone names a trademark but at least according to Richard DAZ does their Genesis ones
(as I said they cannot claim the original Poser figure ones they borrowed)
I myself often borrow Makehuman as it is OpenSource, the Rocketbox figures from Microsoft are too
And both use BiPed that Autodesk use
Is there a way to upload them without the rigging if that's the big holdup, and then folks can rig them themselves if they'd like?
Sadly, it's more than likely that it's not simply the naming but rather the fact that Genesis 8 poses mostly work on the Omnitoons. I've changed the names a few different ways and the rigging still allows Genesis. 8 poses to be applied relatiely closely.
I'm a total novice when it comes to rigging, but as far as I know it is possible, but a lot of work for anyone wanting ot use the figures. It would definitely take all the fun out of 'em.
I'm looking into changing the rigging to allow them to be distributed while still keeping them useful.
Can I suggest a work-around for the clothing clone problem? It's a work-around I have followed myself to create a G8F/M clone for V3.
If you use DS itself to modify the shape of your character to moderately closely match G8 using bend, twist side-side and scale-x/y/z to match the surface of the character as well as is reasonable, then that shape will be close, but not a copy of the G8 shape. This posed shape could then be used as a close-enough clone to function as an auto-fit clone without being a copy. You should be able to get the clone surface within 2mm or so over the body simply by posing this way - and where it's difficult, pose your character so it's slightly inside a superimposed G8 as that'll reduce the chance of poke-through.
Now, that shape could be used as the clone, and I think you should be safe distributing it because it's only a loose representation of G8. BUT, if you're feeling terminally cautious, you could supply a script which the user would run to apply that pose to your character, save an obj, re-import the obj and turn it into a clone (I will confess the script is beyond me at the moment, but as there is a deformation to morph script product in the shop, it's possible). Then the only material being distributed is a pose and a script, both of which are your copyright and neither is an infringement of DAZ copyright.
I hope this contribution is helpful. If not that, I hope that it's not unhelpful.
Regards,
Richard
Thanks for the suggestion, it's much appreciated.
Currently, I have the four clones (Genesis 3 and Geneis 8 for male and female Omnitoons) and I *think* I have a workaround. As Richard has stated, we're allowed to use DAZ shapes to make clothing, since those are add-ons, not standalone figures.
My current plan is to remove the clones, but to include the Omnitoon meshes used to create the clones as Genesis 3 and 8 clothing. The users would get (probably pretty poor-quality) bodysuits for Gen3/8 that they could also use to create their own clothing clones fairly simply.
I can't talk for other folks, but I do most of my animating in blender, and with auto rig pro, there is a daz preset. So as it would be fairly easy to rig it in blender for those of us who use it. Just an idea, but no worries if that's even more work to figure out. The characters do look great!
If you are trying to match the shape of another figure then you are creating a derivative and the issue still remains.
@Richard:
I've been reworking the rigging to break Genesis 8 compatibility. I'm not sure how far I have to update the rigging to make it acceptable, though.
Here's 5 samples of Genesis 8 poses applied to the basic Genesis 8 figure and to the base Omnitoon male figure, is this enough of a difference?
you could always retarget them to the Unreal Skeleton you know
not only is that encouraged but could lead to an actual marketplace presence if you ever want to become an asset creator
many freebies on the FAB market are from people honing their skills
it would be cool to see them in indie games
DAZ Studio FBX improvements means Unreal content easier to use in DAZ and if they use the Unreal skeleton BVH exports should work on them too
and they save as animated poses