What kind of voodo is required to bring a 3DS rig into Carrara 8.1?

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  • SadKitty_CarraraSadKitty_Carrara Posts: 21,460
    edited September 2012

    try this one
    animated in C8.5 and 8.1 production build

    Untitled.jpg
    1854 x 1015 - 407K
    Post edited by SadKitty_Carrara on
  • bobhbobh Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    they WILL do free conversions for paid models so worth a try
    odd that fbx converter crashes, it does for me on corrupt files btw!
    occasionally my Carrara rigging explodes in particular if I use a bvh skeleton with animation upon export to iClone 3Dxchange,
    (OK in Carrara, it will also do so as a dae in Blender as do ALL animated Daz figures)
    those files crash fbx converter, likewise some animated dae of Daz figures, from studio too!

    Excellent tip, Wendy, I submitted a request to get the rig converted to FBX and Carrara (if they do Carrara).

    Is there a specific known FBX format that needs to be used for Carrara 8.1 to play nice with? 2009? 20011? 2012? 2012.2?

  • bobhbobh Posts: 0
    edited September 2012

    try this one
    animated in C8.5 and 8.1 production build

    No problem, popped right in.

    GargoyleRig.jpg
    1680 x 1020 - 354K
    Post edited by bobh on
  • SadKitty_CarraraSadKitty_Carrara Posts: 21,460
    edited December 1969

    most play nice with C8.5 beta, not all do with C8.1 production build but fbx converter usually fixes that or the fbx animation Take manager, it hates multiple takes
    trial and error on my behalf.
    try and figure out if you can duplicate the fbx export of the Gargoyle from the MAX file is my suggestion
    if it works straight off then the terminator model has issues with Carrara, if not, same as your previous attempt, then it is your settings

  • bobhbobh Posts: 0
    edited September 2012

    most play nice with C8.5 beta, not all do with C8.1 production build but fbx converter usually fixes that or the fbx animation Take manager, it hates multiple takes
    trial and error on my behalf.
    try and figure out if you can duplicate the fbx export of the Gargoyle from the MAX file is my suggestion
    if it works straight off then the terminator model has issues with Carrara, if not, same as your previous attempt, then it is your settings

    I think I'll wait to see what kind of FBX rig they convert for me. If it has issues, then the fun will really begin.

    I'm really disappointed with that FBX converter, I had really high hopes for that tool. It doesn't do the newer MAX files, only the older 3DS files. I exported/saved the MAX file of the Terminator rig to 3DS and the converter pukes on it. Both 32 and 64 bit versions have the same problem of crashing on the conversion, so I'm thinking it's an issue of bad files.

    Post edited by bobh on
  • SadKitty_CarraraSadKitty_Carrara Posts: 21,460
    edited December 1969

    a bit of fun using iClone 3dxchange to add new mtions and reimported into Carrara
    http://youtu.be/aIK4UschTvs

  • bobhbobh Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    a bit of fun using iClone 3dxchange to add new mtions and reimported into Carrara
    http://youtu.be/aIK4UschTvs

    Ah, so THAT's what you've been up to over the last hour.

    Hahahahaha - don't you dare do this to my beloved terminator T-800!

    (Just kidding - have a blast). ;-)

  • bobhbobh Posts: 0
    edited September 2012

    a bit of fun using iClone 3dxchange to add new mtions and reimported into Carrara
    http://youtu.be/aIK4UschTvs

    I just recently purchased iClone. Haven't purchased 3DExchange yet. Are you using the Kinect with the SDK or are you using some other source of mocap? I personally find the Reallusion content to be WAY too expensive - DAZ is way better, looks better, content is much cheaper, and it's got real rendering with Carrara behind it, not a cheap, low poly video game engine. I'm actually regretting my purchase, and I think the ability to use mocap with 3Dexchange with Carrara is going to to be the only feature that ends up keeping me from getting rid of it. Between iClone and CrazyTalk (both pro versions), that was a lot of money I probably shouldn't have spent.

    Post edited by bobh on
  • SadKitty_CarraraSadKitty_Carrara Posts: 21,460
    edited December 1969

    actually Daz aniblocks coverted to iMotions via Genesis imported into 3dx5pipeline, I do not have the mocap plugin but can import all my Daz/Poser animations into iClone by retargeting a figure exported with an fbx using them.
    I jump between softwares a lot but mosly render in Carrara or iClone depending on what I wish to do.
    in carpark at work, must go!

  • bobhbobh Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Well, sadly, I'm here to say that TurboSquid's conversion of the rig to FBS did not import any better, it's an even bigger mess than the 3DS verison I posted an exampel of. So that's that. Bummer.

  • SadKitty_CarraraSadKitty_Carrara Posts: 21,460
    edited September 2012

    out of curiosity
    does it open in fbx viewer in the free fbx converter?
    oddly the Gargoyle was locked to a top view, I can pan around any other imported figure.
    try a few other things with simpler components, grab freebies and you might discover what it is that is causing the issue.
    since the obj imports and so does the rigging partly on some attempts there must be something causing it to not come over completely so you need to start eliminating variables
    or call it quits and rig the obj
    hint, since it is mechanical/robotic, break it up and attach bits seperately to the skeleton, you can then open each seperately in the vertex room and weightpaint more accurately, infact parenting to skeleton may even work better than attaching.

    Post edited by SadKitty_Carrara on
  • 3DAGE3DAGE Posts: 3,301
    edited December 1969

    HI BobH :)

    The FBX converter utility should be able to convert the file format to one which you can work with,. (if you know which version that is)
    However, you're trying to Run, before you can walk.
    Working with rigged models and import / export of one of the most varied formats on the planet, really isn't a good place to start learning what you're doing.

    You should have some basic stuff figured out first.,.. for example, is this step absolutely necessary.

    The question is simply "Why" do you need to import a model from 3D Max as a starting point, and why are you importing it into Carrara..
    Is there a purpose in this work-flow which cannot be accomplished by using the model in the program it was originally built for (Max)

    Most 3D programs have tools or functions which restrict the way you can easily interchange scene assets, and Max has never been good at sharing with others.

    If you really need to have the "model" from Max, and it really needs to be Rigged, then you'll either need to use "Trial and Error" to figure out the right version and options for FBX, and you may still be dealing with limitations, even after a successful import into Carrara.

    Or you should realise that it's not impossible, or impractical to simply transfer the "Model" (OBJ),... and rebuild the rigging in Carrara

    As an experiment....
    Try Exporting the "Gargoyle" model as an OBJ , then import that into Carrara, then add some bones to it.

    or just try making a simple object in Carrara and adding a couple of bones to it and see how simple that process is.

    I hope none of the above sounds harsh, as I'm just trying to save you time and frustration, which can stop you learning how to use Carrara, instead of only learning how to import something from another program.

    Hope it helps :)

  • bobhbobh Posts: 0
    edited September 2012

    out of curiosity
    does it open in fbx viewer in the free fbx converter?
    oddly the Gargoyle was locked to a top view, I can pan around any other imported figure.
    try a few other things with simpler components, grab freebies and you might discover what it is that is causing the issue.
    since the obj imports and so does the rigging partly on some attempts there must be something causing it to not come over completely so you need to start eliminating variables
    or call it quits and rig the obj
    hint, since it is mechanical/robotic, break it up and attach bits seperately to the skeleton, you can then open each seperately in the vertex room and weightpaint more accurately, infact parenting to skeleton may even work better than attaching.

    Well, I definitely don't consider myself experienced enough (at all) to even know enough to go through any kind of deep trial and error process at this point (the reason I'm trying to import this rig in the first place). I might be looking at an attempt to rig the OBJ myself. I think I'll try to play around with it this weekend if I can, I have a lot of code to write first.

    Post edited by bobh on
  • bobhbobh Posts: 0
    edited September 2012

    3DAGE said:
    HI BobH :)

    The FBX converter utility should be able to convert the file format to one which you can work with,. (if you know which version that is)
    However, you're trying to Run, before you can walk.
    Working with rigged models and import / export of one of the most varied formats on the planet, really isn't a good place to start learning what you're doing.

    You should have some basic stuff figured out first.,.. for example, is this step absolutely necessary.

    The question is simply "Why" do you need to import a model from 3D Max as a starting point, and why are you importing it into Carrara..
    Is there a purpose in this work-flow which cannot be accomplished by using the model in the program it was originally built for (Max)

    Most 3D programs have tools or functions which restrict the way you can easily interchange scene assets, and Max has never been good at sharing with others.

    If you really need to have the "model" from Max, and it really needs to be Rigged, then you'll either need to use "Trial and Error" to figure out the right version and options for FBX, and you may still be dealing with limitations, even after a successful import into Carrara.

    Or you should realise that it's not impossible, or impractical to simply transfer the "Model" (OBJ),... and rebuild the rigging in Carrara

    As an experiment....
    Try Exporting the "Gargoyle" model as an OBJ , then import that into Carrara, then add some bones to it.

    or just try making a simple object in Carrara and adding a couple of bones to it and see how simple that process is.

    I hope none of the above sounds harsh, as I'm just trying to save you time and frustration, which can stop you learning how to use Carrara, instead of only learning how to import something from another program.

    Hope it helps :)

    3DAGE,

    Excellent and wise comments, and you're right about everything.

    First, you have some good questions, and I have a presumably and moderately lame set of answers:

    I actually do need this rig, I have a software project that requires some simple animation of this rig walking and talking.

    FBX versions: Excellent point. I have never heard of what specific version of FBX that Carrara plays nice with. I've asked, but have seen no answers. Nor have I come across any DAZ documentation on it (have i missed it somehow?). I exported in every version of FBX that MAX does, and none of them worked as far as what Carrara will import correctly. I'm assuming that MAX is butchering the FBX's on export, and is why there were no FBXs of this rig on Turbosquid. The FBX they made me ended up being worse than the FBX I exported myself. The FBX export dialog in MAX is incredibly complex, so I'm just going to assume it's actually me that is butchering the export. But until I specifically know what Carrara needs in terms of FBX specifics and version, I could trial and error myself to death and still never get it right.

    Why Carrara instead of Max: I don't know MAX at all and have no desire to at this time. It's a future plan of mine. But for now, Carrara is my "get the feet wet" learning platform, and a darned good one. It might have its limitations, but I like Carrara and how easy it is to assemble the rest of the scenery and atmosphere around the model once I have it imported. I even have a set of special effects to use in Carrara that I need for the scene. The main reason for using the DAZ set of projects (and content) is that I can literally "slap together" 3D content in minutes for the software I'm producing (please don't take that wrong, it's meant as a compliment to Carrara's fantastic usability), and the rendering quality is pretty darned good. Better yet is how I will be attempting to use something similar to Wendy's workflow in using iClone and mocap to control the rig for the movement i need. Ironically, I had come across iClone before I saw what Wendy was doing with it, so it was really exciting to see what she was doing and made me love Carrara even more.

    OBJ: I actually did bring the rig in as an OBJ, and it seemed to come in perfectly well (see posted pic). The problem is that it came in as a solid object that I didn't see how to break down into a model of individual components for me to rig. Definitely assuming here that it's because of how correct you are in how I have much to learn. OR, more likely, did I just botch the export/import process? I'll assume yes on that.

    Your idea of rigging up an OBJ like the gargoyle is a good one, I think I'll play with that tonight. Good advice.

    Don't worry, none of your advice was harsh at all. It was actually requested. :-)

    Post edited by bobh on
  • SadKitty_CarraraSadKitty_Carrara Posts: 21,460
    edited December 1969

    there is an import option for seperate mesh for each shading domain you could try.
    also you can split the model but that often messes up the uv mapping I find.

  • 3DAGE3DAGE Posts: 3,301
    edited December 1969

    Hi BobH :)

    When you Export a model from most 3D programs,. (depending on the format you choose) then you'll get just the bare 3D Model, since most Bone rigging systems are specific to the software you're using, and won't work the same in other programs,..

    In the case of Max, to Carrara,. the Max figure is rigged with a system called "Biped", and when you export that out as an FBX (model and animation) 3D Max will convert this complex "Biped" system,.. down to simple bones,. so that you can load it into other programs.

    If you import it back into Max, then you'll still only have "simple bones", it doesn't convert it back from FBX to a Biped controlled system.
    so it's a one way trip.

    That's one reason you should look at Exporting the basic 3D Model from Max as OBJ ,. and then adding the bones in Carrara.

    The OBJ model format does not include Bones or animation, it's simply the basic 3D model. (no rig)
    and that's what you want to have, so that you can add a Bone rig to animate it how you want to.

    OBJ is the basic model format used with Poser, Daz Studio, Carrara, and most other 3D programs.

    Bones are different from program to program, but with Poser and Daz Studio, you can add a Bone rig to your model which will work in both of those programs, and will also work in Carrara.

    If your goal is to work within Carrara, then you can rig to your model there, without bothering with Poser or DS.

    :)

  • bobhbobh Posts: 0
    edited September 2012

    3DAGE said:
    Hi BobH :)

    When you Export a model from most 3D programs,. (depending on the format you choose) then you'll get just the bare 3D Model, since most Bone rigging systems are specific to the software you're using, and won't work the same in other programs,..

    In the case of Max, to Carrara,. the Max figure is rigged with a system called "Biped", and when you export that out as an FBX (model and animation) 3D Max will convert this complex "Biped" system,.. down to simple bones,. so that you can load it into other programs.

    If you import it back into Max, then you'll still only have "simple bones", it doesn't convert it back from FBX to a Biped controlled system.
    so it's a one way trip.

    That's one reason you should look at Exporting the basic 3D Model from Max as OBJ ,. and then adding the bones in Carrara.

    The OBJ model format does not include Bones or animation, it's simply the basic 3D model. (no rig)
    and that's what you want to have, so that you can add a Bone rig to animate it how you want to.

    OBJ is the basic model format used with Poser, Daz Studio, Carrara, and most other 3D programs.

    Bones are different from program to program, but with Poser and Daz Studio, you can add a Bone rig to your model which will work in both of those programs, and will also work in Carrara.

    If your goal is to work within Carrara, then you can rig to your model there, without bothering with Poser or DS.

    :)


    Once again, excellent info, thanks.

    Oddly, the rig seems to come into Carrara just fine - it's actually the model that comes in as a disaster. See the pic I posted 2 pages back. I mean, what a whacko mess that model came in as. The biped rig, however, looks like it came in completely fine. Go figure.

    This particular model did import beautifully into Carrara as an OBJ. However it appears to have imported as one solid object, not a series of shapes that can be rigged. Again, I'll have to look more into this when I get home tonight, maybe I screwed something up somehow.

    One reason I'm trying to preserve the original rig is that this terminator model has special functionality involving the eyes, etc, and I really had plans on using for several scenes. I'm sure that having to re-rig that up myself from a bare model is presumably beyond my skill level, so that would be a loss.

    One path I'm going to attempt is to use 3DExchange and bring the 3DS rig into iClone 5 tonight. Once it's in iC, then I think I might be in the clear, as Wendy has wonderfully demonstrated that she exports from IC to Carrara all the time, complete with motion that works wonderfully well. This is the last option I will be trying before I simply tuck tail and attempt rigging a model myself in C8, which is not going to be pretty at my current experience level with modeling, which is practically zero. ;-)

    Post edited by bobh on
  • SadKitty_CarraraSadKitty_Carrara Posts: 21,460
    edited December 1969

    If iClone 3dxchange5 pipeline can handle the polys it does often indeed import fbx better than Carrara at times, or crashes
    no inbetween!
    you need to retarget to use imotions, too easy use the Max biped template!
    if you import an iMotion usually from users/public/users/reallusion/template/iclone5template/motions incase it does not send you there (and you do not need to send it even to iClone, you can do this in 3dx5)
    make sure you export fbx with animation, will not work with bought motions, they shade the heirachy purple so you know
    when you open it in Carrara you will have heaps of keyframes on EVERY bone so to animate those eyes etc you will need to select them all and delete them
    aniblocks from studio an Daz figures do the same annoying thing!!!
    I might try to make a video.

  • bobhbobh Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    a bit of fun using iClone 3dxchange to add new mtions and reimported into Carrara
    http://youtu.be/aIK4UschTvs

    Wendy, are you using 3DExchange PRO or Pipeline to export FBX/BVH? It seems that one little "export" function in the Pipeline version is the only difference from the PRO version - and also the only difference from paying $200 for PRO vs. $500 for Pipeline.

    Please tell me you're somehow using PRO...

  • bobhbobh Posts: 0
    edited September 2012

    If iClone 3dxchange5 pipeline can handle...


    CRAP! Nevermind...

    <<Damn, this is getting expensive....>>

    Post edited by bobh on
  • SadKitty_CarraraSadKitty_Carrara Posts: 21,460
    edited December 1969

    yeah, sorry, I have pipeline
    I was a beta tester so got it for free, sometimes I can get lucky
    God knows I spend enough on my 3D hobby otherwise!
    but I will never afford MAX!!!!!
    you could still bring it into iClone if it works, if you go for non-human instead of nonstandard you can manually pose all the bones but adding premade animation not possible unless you do it in Max.
    it may not even import into 3dx5

  • bobhbobh Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    yeah, sorry, I have pipeline
    I was a beta tester so got it for free, sometimes I can get lucky
    God knows I spend enough on my 3D hobby otherwise!
    but I will never afford MAX!!!!!
    you could still bring it into iClone if it works, if you go for non-human instead of nonstandard you can manually pose all the bones but adding premade animation not possible unless you do it in Max.
    it may not even import into 3dx5

    Very true - I could spend the money and still find out it doesn't work. Grrr.

    I hate this voodoo crap.

    This is why standards are a good thing, folks.

  • Kevin SandersonKevin Sanderson Posts: 1,300
    edited September 2012

    Bob, there are people here over the years who are not the sharpest who have figured out how to rig. If they can do it with their limited smarts, you can do it since you obviously can think things through. It will save you some money.

    Here's a good rigging tute from DT.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4N2jx0gc5I

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASrUcbdiB3A

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cr-xTuuJXOc

    Post edited by Kevin Sanderson on
  • SadKitty_CarraraSadKitty_Carrara Posts: 21,460
    edited December 1969

    I think he means me! :red:
    I actually had been using Carrara for two years before I figured out how to attach a skeleton or even basic modelling.
    but in my defense, it was not that long before I got my desktop, my crappy laptop struggled with 3D and such things tended to crash it.

  • tbwoqtbwoq Posts: 238
    edited December 1969

    Could it be a polygon import limit? I remember reading something about this in the old Carrara forum(65k poly or less, iirc). I read at least one issue that Unity had issues with polygon limits and just the rig would show up(?).

  • RoygeeRoygee Posts: 2,232
    edited December 1969

    Carrara rigging is probably the world's easiest - click-click-click and it's done. Works fine on simple figures, but when things get more complex, as in fingers, it gets bad very quickly. The weight-painting and setting constraints is really ugly.

    You should give the Tri-Ax rigging in Daz Studio a try - takes a while longer to set up, but is dead easy once you get into the flow and the weight-painting is just great.

  • Kevin SandersonKevin Sanderson Posts: 1,300
    edited December 1969

    I think he means me! :red:
    I actually had been using Carrara for two years before I figured out how to attach a skeleton or even basic modelling.
    but in my defense, it was not that long before I got my desktop, my crappy laptop struggled with 3D and such things tended to crash it.

    I don't mean you at all, Wendy! I've always been impressed by what you have figured out. You get much more than some other whiny types get. Most of them are gone so we won't dwell on them. ;)

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