Daz Studio Pro BETA - version 4.9.0.21!

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Comments

  • Wilmap said:

    Will we still be able to buy things DIRECT from the Daz store, as we do now? Then download via DIM or DazConnect.

    Yes.

  • HavosHavos Posts: 3,969
    edited October 2015
    CypherFOX said:
    Havos said:

    Apple abandoned DRM in 2009, so we could argue that DAZ are still living in 2009, not as bad as 1995 maybe, but they are still living in the past.

    I just can't leave this unchallenged.  I invite you to try and copy an app from your iPhone to someone else's iPhone, and then talk to me about how Apple 'abandoned' DRM.  They made DRM so slick you don't even notice it anymore, but Apple's entire downloadable app business is built on on a bedrock of STRONG DRM.

    If DAZ can make encrypted content at rest on my system even half as slick and transparent as that, then heck yeah, it'll be fine.

    --  Morgan

     

    I was refering to the apple music store, not the appstore. The apps only run on apple devices, where as mp3s will run on multiple devices, that is why the customers did not like buying the drm music. As an aside, IOS (ie Apple's) apps are not encypted, but they are signed, and so will only run on a IOS device that recognises that signature. If DAZ could find a way to sign its content rather than encrypt it I would be perfectly happy with the changes. Only signed stuff would be able to be used in studio. However I am not certain this would be easy, since unlike Apple, DS also has to work with free and 3rd party content and this would obviously be unsigned.

    Post edited by Havos on
  • MJWMJW Posts: 438

    I have been pleased with Daz, and have spent a considerable amount on products, but I will cease and desist if I cannot download items as now and use them as now - eg operating on my laptop when away and my desktop at home. I have poor braodband access, and therefore do not use any sort of cloud solutions - it is unreliable and can in certain circumstances simply not be available. Those who advocate such systems are generally in situations where the data transfer rates are good and the fees are not exorbitant. I can't even guarantee a mobile phone signal at my desk, and see no likelihood of the systems improving in the near future - if at all.

    Deriously, if Daz thinks that the way forward is the use of restrictiove practices it is demonstrating an attitude similar to that of the North Koreans. The best way to grasp a piece of soap is gently, not tghtly.

    Think long and hard and then think again - and then abandon thoughts of tying me down.

  • oomuoomu Posts: 170

    About the argument "ask developpers, none would accept to lose controle on their files"

     

    No sane developpers using industrial frameworks to develop software decide to micro-manage where files goes in their project.

    Take Java Enterprise for example: when using Eclipse or whatever, you are stricly conforming to a very narrow structure for your whole project:

    a NOT movable folder for package, one for entitlements file, one for user-interface files, one for implementations files and so on.

    The way eclipse and the whole java community is enforcing thing is to use a package manager to install new java frameworks for your project and let the system (or do it manually) put it in THE RIGHT FOLDER. Not one of your fancy. 

    The goal is to make a functional software, not to manage files. You use metadata, repository, class naming systems to use what you need.

    To say "developpers would never accept to lose control of their programming files" is wrong.

    It's the whole point of MVC frameworks : to force you to adhere to a precise file layout to make them just work.

    An other example with Os X/iOs development. You don't just go "Ho, I think I will put NSView implementations files in an Interface folder in my ~/Desktop/UsefulClasses". No. You create a project in XCode, and you accept the standards classes are in a definite path in your system, managed by the system and xcode, and you put your own additions where they will be found by the whole building process.

    And it WORKS.

    -

    Now, DAZ : for all your actual content, nothing change. Content Library is still there.

    But it would be better to let just the system manage content in Smart Content and just categorize them (tags, categories, context ) with a nice UI and  never to mess with the file systems. 

    File systems is messy: software needs to find files, to manage them in an ui or to find them for rendering (to give assets to whatever engine you will use tomorrow), to do update (how an updating system could work if you move your files in arbitrary folder ?) and it's prone to errors (it's easy to move and put files in the wrong folder, wrong path and to forget to update whatever path somewhere else)

    Think for example about old scene: you move assets around your file system, and BAM! old scenes file can't access the content anymore.

    Metadata in a Database to present you a nice UI to manage your asset is better.

     

    To have that only now, in the same time than DRM, sucks , because as ever we are catch in moment of transition. But in the end, to manage contents with a nice clean interface and a stable solid fast database is better for works, to make arts. What DAZ needs to do is to always improve the interface, always improve editing of categories and make a great flexible software.

    We'll see.

     

    To me, DRM is a way more important subject.

  • I've been in the imaging industry going on 40 years in various aspects. I've coded, consulted, shot, created, etc., etc. all types of digital content over the years. I have also worked for the last 12 years in the Photoshop/Lightroom/Aperture plugin development world so I speak from this experience on any type of encrypted content or any efforts to make a program easier to use.

    Case in point....DS new users can't find their content so Daz is gonna make it easier for them. Adobe Lightroom new users can't import files so Adobe makes it easier for them. Did either company actually think about existing users?? I doubt it as the major reason they're going after the new users is that these people have the attention span (social network/selfie generation) and common sense of a brick. One of my major roles is senior support and the vast majority of the tickets filed are these sort of people than can't read past 4 words and have no communication or comprehension skills.

    So Adobe dumbs down a feature for this generation and actually removes other useful features....you get where I'm going with this Daz? Maybe your whole goal is to latch onto these new people with the 'buy me now app mentality' as they're known as easy revenue. Nothing wrong with that!! Adobe tried it and got more negative feedback than any other farce they've pulled in the past. However, you forget about us 'old guys' that have been with you a while and consistently fork over bucks in your store. Most of us probably use DS to create useful content, I myself am using it at present to illustrate professional lighting scenarios in an ebook, and we have optimized our workflows around all the BS content management of DS. How this Connect will fit in no one really knows at this time but Daz should pay careful attention to this thread as the folks are dead on.

    The few kids that think DRM of any kind is going to increase their sales simply haven't 'been there, done that' like some of us have. Hell, one company I consulted for went with a subscription based system for one of their apps that's been out there for years and the subsequent support issues and PO'd customer were overwhelming to say the least. Up and coming kids think everything on the internet is free, after all look at goog and facecrok so maybe this is another knee jerk reaction to the internet of things....who knows at this point.

    MT

  • BeeMKayBeeMKay Posts: 6,681
    Havos said:
    CypherFOX said:
    Havos said:

    Apple abandoned DRM in 2009, so we could argue that DAZ are still living in 2009, not as bad as 1995 maybe, but they are still living in the past.

    I just can't leave this unchallenged.  I invite you to try and copy an app from your iPhone to someone else's iPhone, and then talk to me about how Apple 'abandoned' DRM.  They made DRM so slick you don't even notice it anymore, but Apple's entire downloadable app business is built on on a bedrock of STRONG DRM.

    If DAZ can make encrypted content at rest on my system even half as slick and transparent as that, then heck yeah, it'll be fine.

    --  Morgan

     

    I was refering to the apple music store, not the appstore. The apps only run on apple devices, where as mp3s will run on multiple devices, that is why the customers did not like buying the drm music. As an aside, IOS (ie Apple's) apps are not encypted, but they are signed, and so will only run on a IOS device that recognises that signature. If DAZ could find a way to sign its content rather than encrypt it I would be perfectly happy with the changes. Only signed stuff would be able to be used in studio. However I am not certain this would be easy, since unlike Apple, DS also has to work with free and 3rd party content and this would obviously be unsigned.

    Well, it wouldn't solve the problem, if the signature needs to be recognized by other software like Blender. You still can't use the content in all software, unlike adding a hidden, embedded, scrambled buyer-ID (you could use an algorythmus that combines the User ID, some DAZ-internal Key and the SKU to make it harder to crack) to each piece of content downloaded from the store, which would make it rather simple to track back who exactly is leaking the files to the warez sites.

  • WandWWandW Posts: 2,078

    Wow!  Glad I didn't renew my PC membership this month!! surprise  I'm in until March and that will be it for me, as I don't use Studio, except as a bridge to get content into Poser.

    I'm off to download the 1500 or so remaining items that I had never downloaded with Install Manager because I had used the old installers.  I guess this is going to be Goodbye, DAZ...

  • oomuoomu Posts: 170
    DAZ_Rawb said:
    oomu said:

     

    To be clear: I want to future proof stuff I PAID FOR. Not simply play with DLC for a video game.

    This should ease your concerns about having local backups of your content:

    http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/comment/934196/#Comment_934196

    it does ease me. I can backup it, keep it safe for whatever crisis happening without worrying to download again giga-octets of stuff from the internet. Thanks.

     

    DAZ_Rawb said:

    And as far as the encryption goes, it only expands the encryption to cover things beyond the studio script files but still only encrypts Daz specific files. Things like textures and maps are unencrypted during installation.

    it's a relief. thanks.

    ------

    About DRM, DAZ Store, the future and art (it's a rant :) ) :

    Still, how can I explain ? DRM / Store integreated / cloud infrastructure is like a "Brave New World". Yes, it's quite polished, quite nice, quite cool with all the nice icons, services and all assets nicely packaged under a nice interface. But DAZ gains more and more control on its customers. Why if tomorrow you decide to restrict uses ? All that Cloud/DRM going everywhere (steam gaming, apple app store, now DAZ) sometimes looks like a new totalitarism. Excuse my exaggeration but it's to emphasize my point : where is the end ? Encryption and DRM are powerful tools and we will be at your mercy.

    I hope you will never forget DAZ is a great entry tool to learn about CG creations and use it to mix/remix assets for learning : create morphs, editing textures, learning about normals maps by seeing real working stuff and so on. I know the store is on the front page of Daz3D.com (and it means something about your company), but DAZ Studio is also a nice tools to create and render stuffs. It may not be as flexible as Blender of course, but still it allows to create or remix stuff and push it to rendering.

    Of course, I can and maybe will create all my contents from scratch one day. But it's also great to build upon the hard work from creators as a hobby and learn fromt them. ( By the way, you should do a specific category for merchant products, to sort them by use-case, what is possible with them commercially with clean direct to the point explanation, and all).

    Finally my point is : please never forget to let people create and build with contents, don't transform DAZ in just an App Store or videogame with closed DLC. 

    Thanks for your time.

     

  • oomuoomu Posts: 170
    edited October 2015

    another thing :

    postgresql is a great software, I use it in my professional work, and database is an awesome commodity, but it put a LOT of responsibility on you, daz's developpers, to never never make a catastrophic bug with the database. You have to invest in people to do QA, to check database regression bugs and all. Also you have to commit yourself to an efficient tables layout/index/views with enough flexibility to users for years at least. To do update every 6 months to whatever new schemes is a chore.

    The more you rest on a database, the more it becomes critical to always work.

    -

    I think I'll try to share the same DAZ database with my computers at home. Maybe even to put it on a small dedicated server, to centralize metadatas.

    Post edited by oomu on
  • SimonJMSimonJM Posts: 5,329

    I think I need a quick clarification/explanation of something with the new Connect system.  Either that or a good thwack with th business end of a two-by-four .. ;)

    I have seen emntion of this data/cloud directory location as being where content obtained via Connect will go.  Not got a problem with that. I don't think ... ;)  I have seen mention that this is where the content is installed, and also suggestion that Connect works (very sort of!) a little like DIM.  I have also seen it mentioned that we can backup content for later recovery, etc.

    Now, data/cliud may be where it is installed into, but where is it downloaded to?  What happens to the download file(s) after installation?  Any of that configurable and, if not, why not?

  • Wow!  Glad I didn't renew my PC membership this month!! surprise  I'm in until March and that will be it for me, as I don't use Studio, except as a bridge to get content into Poser.

    I'm off to download the 1500 or so remaining items that I had never downloaded with Install Manager because I had used the old installers.  I guess this is going to be Goodbye, DAZ...

    That is of course up to you, but have you read the FAQ ? you are not forced to use Connect, you can go on just as before if you like that better.

     

     

  • Now, data/cliud may be where it is installed into, but where is it downloaded to?  What happens to the download file(s) after installation?  Any of that configurable and, if not, why not?

    It is downloaded to your computer just as with DIM, you need internet to download and first time you use it to verify that you are allowed to use it, after that it's same as before.

    It's not "installed to the cloud", that is where you get it from, they have added kind of "download when you need it", you still download and install it on your computer, no difference from DIM.

     

  • mikael-aronssonmikael-aronsson Posts: 464
    edited October 2015

    I have been pleased with Daz, and have spent a considerable amount on products, but I will cease and desist if I cannot download items as now and use them as now - eg operating on my laptop when away and my desktop at home. I have poor braodband access, and therefore do not use any sort of cloud solutions - it is unreliable and can in certain circumstances simply not be available. Those who advocate such systems are generally in situations where the data transfer rates are good and the fees are not exorbitant. I can't even guarantee a mobile phone signal at my desk, and see no likelihood of the systems improving in the near future - if at all.

    Deriously, if Daz thinks that the way forward is the use of restrictiove practices it is demonstrating an attitude similar to that of the North Koreans. The best way to grasp a piece of soap is gently, not tghtly.

    I am pretty sure it has nothing to do with North Korea, people redistribute things they don't own too much and they (DAZ) want to minimize that.

    From the FAQ:

    Products can be installed and used on multiple computers, but you can only be actively logged in on one computer at a time. In fact, using Daz Connect makes this easier than before, as any computer you log into will have access to your purchased products directly within Daz Studio. There is no need to carry around your installation files—simply login and download your products on any machine.

    They also said that if that is not a possible solution (if you have a crappy internet on your laptop) you can contact support and they will work something out for you.

     

    Post edited by mikael-aronsson on
  • Its not to late to abandon this ridiculous Connect idea DAZ. It looks like you're already loosing customers. As others have said, ill be purchasing .zip files while I can and then ill be gone. I will not be upgrading beyond 4.8. I will be cancelling my PC+ membership.

    I cant believe that you are sending me back to Renderosity...

  • jakibluejakiblue Posts: 5,930

    Not for long, you can't. New products will only be available via DAZ Connect - so if you want to buy a new product, you will HAVE to use Connect. 

    Whether the "new products" are a month away or three months away is unknown...but at some stage in the very near future, we will be forced to use Connect if we want to buy new content.  

    Wow!  Glad I didn't renew my PC membership this month!! surprise  I'm in until March and that will be it for me, as I don't use Studio, except as a bridge to get content into Poser.

    I'm off to download the 1500 or so remaining items that I had never downloaded with Install Manager because I had used the old installers.  I guess this is going to be Goodbye, DAZ...

    That is of course up to you, but have you read the FAQ ? you are not forced to use Connect, you can go on just as before if you like that better.

     

     

     

  • WandWWandW Posts: 2,078

    Wow!  Glad I didn't renew my PC membership this month!! surprise  I'm in until March and that will be it for me, as I don't use Studio, except as a bridge to get content into Poser.

    I'm off to download the 1500 or so remaining items that I had never downloaded with Install Manager because I had used the old installers.  I guess this is going to be Goodbye, DAZ...

    That is of course up to you, but have you read the FAQ ? you are not forced to use Connect, you can go on just as before if you like that better.

    Possibly, but it wasn't very long ago that the DSON format was trumpeted as an open format based on JSON, a standard data format.  I prefer to keep my powder dry.

    I don't take any offense; keep in mind this is strictly a business decision. DAZ is no longer a small shop run by a group of artists, but is now but one small piece of a $80 Billion dollar corporation, Nippon Telegraph and Telephone, and has to contribute to their bottom line...

  • DAZ_SpookyDAZ_Spooky Posts: 3,100
    Syndaryl said:

    The exporter still being available is a ridiculous argument that your files are still somehow accessible, by the way.

    I've got a half-written DUF importer for Blender that is now, apparently, going to be complete garbage because I'll loose access to the DUF files. I have the mesh imported, and I was working on the weightmapping for general weighted models (G3F and clothing), but that's all pointless effort now.

    There is API for that, you don't need to read the DUF files for that. 

    How does one lay hands on said API?

     

    Syndaryl said:

    The exporter still being available is a ridiculous argument that your files are still somehow accessible, by the way.

    I've got a half-written DUF importer for Blender that is now, apparently, going to be complete garbage because I'll loose access to the DUF files. I have the mesh imported, and I was working on the weightmapping for general weighted models (G3F and clothing), but that's all pointless effort now.

    There is API for that, you don't need to read the DUF files for that. 

    How does one lay hands on said API?

    That is best handled in the developer's forums. 

  • SimonJMSimonJM Posts: 5,329

    Now, data/cliud may be where it is installed into, but where is it downloaded to?  What happens to the download file(s) after installation?  Any of that configurable and, if not, why not?

    It is downloaded to your computer just as with DIM, you need internet to download and first time you use it to verify that you are allowed to use it, after that it's same as before.

    It's not "installed to the cloud", that is where you get it from, they have added kind of "download when you need it", you still download and install it on your computer, no difference from DIM.

     

    Thank you for not quite not answering the questions! :)  Hopefually a DAZ person will stroll on by!

  • DAZ_SpookyDAZ_Spooky Posts: 3,100
    mjc1016 said:
    mjc1016 said:

    So let me get this straight...

    Account switching is possible...with only 1 download/install of the content  IF that content (which according to a user report is the first mapped content directory) is in the 'public' documents folder.  Due to restrictions in place by most operating systems if the first content folder isn't a public folder each user would need to have a separate download, because private user folders are NOT going to accessible by any other user.  So this would also mean that not only does existing content need to be where the DIM installed it, but rather where the DEFAULT install location should have been (since DIM defaults to the public floder).

    Also, in order for any account switching to work, currently, one needs to have an active internet connection.

    You are adding an awful lot of assumptions here to get to your conclusions. Your first statement and your last statement are both accurate. Otherwise I don't have a clue where you got the information.

    1. If you are using DZ Connect to install your content or control your content, and if you have more than one person on the computer with a Daz 3D Account then when each person logs in, they can only see the content that is from their account. Regardless of the number of accounts as long as you are using mapped directories, and as long as you are not using directories that are locked to a specific machine user, you only need one copy of each piece of content.

    2. If the content is not installed by or controlled by Daz Connect, then none of 1 applies.

    3. There is no requirement to use a folder on your C drive (Windows), or OS Drive (Mac). There is no requirement to use default directories. There is no requirement to even have the public documents folder on the c drive.

    DIM installs, by default, to a PUBLIC folder.  IF one changed it to the older DEFAULT location, of the content being in MY USER folder then what is installed there will, because data sharing, without massive hoops, between user account folder just isn't going to happen just be usable in MY ACCOUNT.  Hell, even with admin privileges I can't access other user accounts on the various Windows machines from MY account.

    In order to convert all the already installed data, if one chooses to go the Connect route, it must be where DIM put it to begin with...true or false?

    So, IF one has all their content in a USER folder and wishes to use Connect, it would probably be easier to just download and install everything fresh, if one ever wants to have a chance of having account switching work, in order to NOT duplicate several to several hundred gigs worth of content...

    So you put it somewhere where the other person with an account on your computer can't get to it, then they still can't get to it. Nothing changed. 

  • sfaa69sfaa69 Posts: 337

    Why? Is this going to meet some unmet need or is it just to make it more complicated so that fossils like myself finally decide that it's just not worth the effort to continue with this particular hobby?

  • DAZ_SpookyDAZ_Spooky Posts: 3,100
    vwrangler said:
    It's not even just third party content. There's quite a lot of DAZ content that many users have put in places that were more intuitive/logical/effective for them. People were then able to combine that with how they had third party content organized to make what was, for them, the best way to work. It sounds as though, at best, Studio 4.9 will be confused by that approach, because things aren't where it wants them to be.
    vwrangler said:

    I do understand that it's frustrating that so few people are paying attention to the unarguable improvements. But for most people, the unarguable improvements are ... unarguable. While they affect our work in noticeable ways, they don't break a system that many users have spent years putting together. (Yes, yes, Content Library still there, everything still where we put it, all true. New Smart Content still breaks the systems that users have developed.) People will naturally focus on the parts that make their work more difficult rather than the parts that make it easier.

    The problem Daz Connect addresses, is the number one customer complaint of I just bought X and I can't find it. And it isn't just new users that have that complaint. 

     

  • DAZ_SpookyDAZ_Spooky Posts: 3,100
    CypherFOX said:

    Greetings,

    Will products that read content like Pose Builder, Poser Converter, and Skin Converter work with encrypted duf files?

    I obviously couldn't say for sure, but many of those actually read the objects from inside DAZ Studio; since DAZ Studio has an API for accessing that data, and DAZ Studio acts as the gatekeeper between the content and the API, it should work just fine.  Now if something goes around that (e.g. DSON Editor by Dimension 3D) the answer is probably no.

    But from within DAZ Studio, as long as the DS API is used, it sounds like everything should be transparent.

    --  Morgan

     

    To follow up on this. Some products will need to be updated as they didn't use the API but parsed the file. But yes these types of products can still work. 

  • DAZ_SpookyDAZ_Spooky Posts: 3,100
    atticanne said:

    I posted this in another thread at approximately !0:15 this morning.  It apparently was overlooked in the flurry of consolidating and closing threads.

    "How will this affect those of us who have 32-bit?  What about the Product files?  Can I still find the product in the list, click Create New Category, and Studio place all of the product's items together in one category in my Content Library?  If someone tries 4.9 and doesn't like it, how much of it can be rolled back to 4.8?

    I am not a gamer.  I am opposed to the cloud and encryption.  I gave up on Smart Content a long time ago.  I have already started diversifying my spending."

    No difference between 32 bit and 64 bit. 

  • DAZ_SpookyDAZ_Spooky Posts: 3,100
    Vhardamis said:

    Question: What is this "Lost and Found" directory I have in Smart content now? It's got quite a large selction of random items in it from Cameras and lights to wardrobe, actors, and props. Are these just items that havent been flagged into the new set up? Will they be fixed and moved by D|S once they are ?

    Same as unassigned in 4.8

  • Thank you for not quite not answering the questions!

    Not sure what you mean there, two "not" does that mean I did ? if that was not an answer to your questions I am not sure what to do...  you asked where the files ended up, I answered....

  • WilmapWilmap Posts: 2,899

    I have two accounts in the Daz shop, one old one and the one I use now. Both have content and both belong to me. How will I be able to use these items together in a scene if I have to log into each account to use them?

  • DAZ_SpookyDAZ_Spooky Posts: 3,100
    mjc1016 said:

    Like I said before pick one method and stick to it...and this is actually something that I prefer (other than the possibility of duplicated texture files). It could be very well the simplest to actually manage,  if the database is completely reliable.   Because there can now be an infinite number of organization schemes and nothing will break.  But it does require a fully functioning database...

    Since the only issues I have seen with the PostgreSQL database is people having issues installing it and the longstanding PostgreSQL - Zonealarm conflict. What are you saying is wrong with the database? 

  • mjc1016mjc1016 Posts: 15,001

    So you put it somewhere where the other person with an account on your computer can't get to it, then they still can't get to it. Nothing changed. 

    Which...for me looks like to set it up for the possibility of account switching would require a complete reinstall of content.

  • DAZ_SpookyDAZ_Spooky Posts: 3,100

    Let's imagine this scenario: I have an encrypted DRMed Genesis 4 for Studio Alcatraz version (aka DS 5).

    What does prevent me from writing a script which exports the base mesh, then for each morph dials it, exporting the modified mesh and then another script that imports the lot and creates a cracked Genesis 4? I used the morph example but with scripting and the SDK I can do the whole thing (bones, weight maps... even the kitchen sink).

    For this DRM scheme to work  it is mandatory that DAZ removes all exports and embargoes the SDK availabily to anybody who is not a DAZ PA. So the options are either: 

    1-a DRM scheme which aggravates legitimate users and delays crackers only for the time it takes them to stop laughing at DAZ or...

    2-an ADX Florence supermax ('muricans know what I am talking about) which makes impossible for people to use Studio in a pipeline.

    Any comments? 

    Imagined scenarios? My comment is to not imagine it but use it for yourself and see how close to reality your imagination is. (Sorry, I couldn't resist.) 

  • DAZ_SpookyDAZ_Spooky Posts: 3,100

    OK! I'm old. I was computer savvy back in the DOS days, but I'm barely past a rookie these days. What settings in Avast do I have to change in order to be able to allow the postgreSQL to run? It says it's quarantined, but the last quarantine date on my computer is from 2014.

    It shouldn't need anything under default settings with the current version of Avast. 

This discussion has been closed.