No HDD on new systems, or very small. Suggestion on system

davesodaveso Posts: 6,484

one thing I've been seeing is most new systems come with 512gb SSD drives.. some with 1TB, and very few with 2TB. Bunches of them have no, or very small 1TB HDD. 

WHY? Especially when you;re here, you need huge HDD drives. I guess external would work maybe? 

Is there a non-gaming system off the shelf that can compete with the gaming systems? 32gb memory at least, 3080, maybe new 4060ti 16gb, or 4070, 4070Ti CPU. I can't afford anything else. 
1 or 2 TB SSD and 6 or so HDD. 
Fast CPU ... this always confuses me, but what is fast? I see a lot of i7 units, and i9. i9 13900, i7 13900, etc ... and different generations of both. very confusing ... 

HERE'S THE CATCH --- $2100 MAX

Comments

  • PerttiAPerttiA Posts: 9,587

    The drive that holds ones OS doesn't need to be big, 1TB is plenty enough. In general one should not use that drive to store anything else but the OS and the Programs, everything else should be put on some other drive. External ones are good for storing Daz content, large and cheap.

  • AllenArtAllenArt Posts: 7,145

    My suggestion? Build your own system ;) Unfortunately, it's not the greatest time in the world to buy a computer (costly). 

    I have lots of external hard drives attached to my computer with no problems, but I do like my applications to be on an SSD inside the box. I wouldn't have a computer that didn't have at least a 1tb drive for applications AND the OS. Windows has gotten huge and eats up a 250 gig drive pretty quickly and even a 512 doesn't leave much room if you have a lot of other programs. I keep my content on external USB 3 drives and haven't had any issues. I also back it up on multiple drives that I then remove from the machine and put in a safe place. Lost too much stuff over the years ;)

  • nonesuch00nonesuch00 Posts: 17,954
    edited May 2023

    i've seen the older gen extern (600MB/S - 050MB/S) USB 3.0 SSDs at 4GB for as low as $329 on Amazon USD. Except for the OS and apps I'm going with 2 M.2 2TB internal SSDs as a mirror. .Same on laptops if they have 2 bays. Unfortunately, Apple Airbook laptops can't be configured that way. It's not a big deal in either case if you only have the OS/Apps installed on internal drives not to have them mirrored if you create a clone after each app LTS version if you're just wanting to save on future install times. Or you don't want to loose an old version of some app like DAZ Studio because of dropped features and such.

    Post edited by nonesuch00 on
  • JPJP Posts: 60

    daveso said:

    one thing I've been seeing is most new systems come with 512gb SSD drives.. some with 1TB, and very few with 2TB. Bunches of them have no, or very small 1TB HDD. 

    WHY? Especially when you;re here, you need huge HDD drives. I guess external would work maybe? 

    Is there a non-gaming system off the shelf that can compete with the gaming systems? 32gb memory at least, 3080, maybe new 4060ti 16gb, or 4070, 4070Ti CPU. I can't afford anything else. 
    1 or 2 TB SSD and 6 or so HDD. 
    Fast CPU ... this always confuses me, but what is fast? I see a lot of i7 units, and i9. i9 13900, i7 13900, etc ... and different generations of both. very confusing ... 

    HERE'S THE CATCH --- $2100 MAX

    I recently ordered a 4 TB m.2 SSD for around $224 at Amazon.

    https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0B25M8FXX?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details

    If you don't want to or are not able to build your own computers then you can get something like that and have someone help you. Provided that the new motherboard supports m.2, Most newer motherboards do. It would be possible to transfer the OS installation from the smaller drive to the 4TB.

    In my case, I will start over with a completely new operating installation. I disconnect all the boot drives from the computer and only have the new target drive hooked up. Then I install the OS. This way the bootloader is on the new drive. Once the OS is installed I reconnect all the other drives. I can now boot into each drive separately via the BIOS menu. And each drive is a self-contained OS. I have also in the past converted an entire old machine with multiple drives to a virtual machine which I can then reference from time to time by booting it up virtually. I already have numerous 1 and 2TB m.2 SSD drives in this system but decided to jump to 4TB because I keep having to shuffle stuff around and uninstall some programs to make space on the OS drive, which is only 1TB. I built this machine in 2017 and it is still a legacy from the original build. I never made an effort to redo the OS installation 100%. I started on a 2TB drive and then went back to the original installation because of deadlines.

    Check out this guide. It's been around for a while. I know you said $2100 was your max budget, but sometimes you gotta aim a little higher. It is a gaming PC guide but would still be relevant for Daz.

    https://techbuyersguru.com/guide/the-best-3500-ultimate-gaming-pc-build/

  • JPJP Posts: 60

    PerttiA said:

    The drive that holds ones OS doesn't need to be big, 1TB is plenty enough. In general one should not use that drive to store anything else but the OS and the Programs, everything else should be put on some other drive. External ones are good for storing Daz content, large and cheap.

    By default, Daz installs the content into the C:\Users\Public\Documents\My DAZ 3D Library folder. I think this is why many people start running out of space on the OS drive.

  • davesodaveso Posts: 6,484

    I have a 512 g SSD OS drive now, but purchased a 1TB over a year ago .. tried to port the OS over to it and it just will not work. I only have one port to hook the SSD into, otherwise I would just keep current and use the other in conjunction.  My system isn;t real old but has a lot of problems overall, so just want to get rid of it. I used to build all my own systems but totally lost track of things quite a few years ago. Now there's so much its difficult to figure out. Even using parts configurators and stuff like that leave too many choices and just a lot more research than I feel like doing anymore. Compatibilities are crazy to figure out. Thats the main reason I started buying off the shelf systems. They're simple. Buy them, plug in, set up your parameters , load software and get truckin. 

  • PerttiAPerttiA Posts: 9,587

    JP said:

    PerttiA said:

    The drive that holds ones OS doesn't need to be big, 1TB is plenty enough. In general one should not use that drive to store anything else but the OS and the Programs, everything else should be put on some other drive. External ones are good for storing Daz content, large and cheap.

    By default, Daz installs the content into the C:\Users\Public\Documents\My DAZ 3D Library folder. I think this is why many people start running out of space on the OS drive.

    Lack of space is just one of the reasons, why nothing of 'value' should be installed to the OS drive.

    Bigger reason is that, WHEN there is a problem with a drive, that drive is usually the OS drive and when one has done recovery of users important files from such a drive once, one doesn't want to do it ever again. 

  • nonesuch00nonesuch00 Posts: 17,954
    edited May 2023

    The thing about SSDs if you don't want to fill them over 2/3rds capacity so just for OS / apps 1TB is acceptable but 500GB is not acceptable if you are playing it safe. The DAZ content library you install on external SSDs also not exceeding 2/3rds capacity so for me 2TB is good if I keep the Zip installers on another 2TB SSD. Others though need 2 4TB SSDs.

    Post edited by nonesuch00 on
  • ChumlyChumly Posts: 793

    You should be fine at your price point (I am assuming you are in the US)

    One place I keep a bookmark for on my web browser is slickdeals dot com  It has regular folks that scour the net looking for deals and posting them.  

    Just checked and somebody is linking to:
    INTEL Core i5 13400F, RTX 4070, 1TB NVMe SSD, 16GB DDR4 3200 w/ Keyboard Set + GeForce RTX 40 Series Diablo IV $1299 That leaves your budget with $800 to buy a 16TB back up Externaldrive AND a comfortable computer chair.
     

    Or if you vist the computer store with "new eggs" you can find other pre built systems that should meet your specs
    CyberpowerPC Gaming Desktop PC Gamer Xtreme GX60330LQ Intel Core i7 13th Gen 13700K (3.40GHz) 16GB DDR5 1 TB PCIe SSD NVIDIA GeForce RTX 4070 Ti Windows 11 Home 64-bit -$1899 that leaves you enough leftover to get a 4TB NvME drive for $199 to put you Daz Library

  • ExpozuresExpozures Posts: 216

    If you're buying pre-built, you're definitely going to want to get an after-market nvme to throw in as a secondary drive, or an SSD if you have limited nvme slots.

    I've got 4 drives in my system: one for OS, one for games, one for Daz, and one for just miscellaneous stuff/user profiles

  • PerttiAPerttiA Posts: 9,587

    Expozures said:

    If you're buying pre-built, you're definitely going to want to get an after-market nvme to throw in as a secondary drive, or an SSD if you have limited nvme slots.

    I've got 4 drives in my system: one for OS, one for games, one for Daz, and one for just miscellaneous stuff/user profiles

    Sixteenth drive on the shelf, waiting to be installed... blush 

  • davesodaveso Posts: 6,484

    Chumly said:

    You should be fine at your price point (I am assuming you are in the US)

    One place I keep a bookmark for on my web browser is slickdeals dot com  It has regular folks that scour the net looking for deals and posting them.  

    Just checked and somebody is linking to:
    INTEL Core i5 13400F, RTX 4070, 1TB NVMe SSD, 16GB DDR4 3200 w/ Keyboard Set + GeForce RTX 40 Series Diablo IV $1299 That leaves your budget with $800 to buy a 16TB back up Externaldrive AND a comfortable computer chair.
     

    Or if you vist the computer store with "new eggs" you can find other pre built systems that should meet your specs
    CyberpowerPC Gaming Desktop PC Gamer Xtreme GX60330LQ Intel Core i7 13th Gen 13700K (3.40GHz) 16GB DDR5 1 TB PCIe SSD NVIDIA GeForce RTX 4070 Ti Windows 11 Home 64-bit -$1899 that leaves you enough leftover to get a 4TB NvME drive for $199 to put you Daz Library

    thanks...I have a cyberpower now, and its the worst system I've ever purchased, and I've purchased at least 20 systems since the late 80s.  Their customer service has been very bad.  They do have some great configurations for a fair price though. Why I bought what I have from them. Yeah, the egg place is pretty good, although I bought a new system from them a few months ago and they slipped me an open box item when I bought new. That worked out with a return but it left me a bad taste. Again, great pricing on some very nice systems. I continue I think to wait for a 4070Ti system, I think with DDR5, minimum 32gig. I can always buy a HDD although some of the systems now come with no HDD connection solution. 

  • FirstBastionFirstBastion Posts: 7,471

    I purchased a Gateway with Win 7 years back  that was the worst computer purchase ever.

     

    Portable hard drives with USB 3 can hold your content. As long as they are never unplugged they retain their drive identifier.

  • PerttiAPerttiA Posts: 9,587

    FirstBastion said:

    Portable hard drives with USB 3 can hold your content. As long as they are never unplugged they retain their drive identifier.

     If one assigns the drive letter to them in Computer Management, Windows will use the same drive letter for them even if they are disconnected and returned at some later point, as long as that drive letter is still free.

  • outrider42outrider42 Posts: 3,679

    I think it is best to get the PC with the performance you want without concern for storage, and add the storage later. If you try finding a prebuilt with extra storage, you will pay a lot more for it than you should. That is a general rule for prebuilts anyway, but it applies even more to storage. They charge a lot to add more.

    You can just pop an extra drive on the thing. It is really best if you are fairly serious about 3D/Daz to have a drive that is dedicated purely to your assets. I used to have assets spread across 2 drives as I ran out of space, but I eventually put everything back together on one 4TB SSD, and that drive only has my assets. I have another drive for games, and yet another drive for important stuff like photos. My OS drive has my most used apps (and some more games) but nothing else. And finally another external or two with duplicate data as backups.

    Plus if all your assets are located on one dedicated drive, it is much easier to move that drive to another PC. Just plug the asset drive up and point Daz Studio to it. You never need to reinstall content.

  • davesodaveso Posts: 6,484

    outrider42 said:

    I think it is best to get the PC with the performance you want without concern for storage, and add the storage later. If you try finding a prebuilt with extra storage, you will pay a lot more for it than you should. That is a general rule for prebuilts anyway, but it applies even more to storage. They charge a lot to add more.

    You can just pop an extra drive on the thing. It is really best if you are fairly serious about 3D/Daz to have a drive that is dedicated purely to your assets. I used to have assets spread across 2 drives as I ran out of space, but I eventually put everything back together on one 4TB SSD, and that drive only has my assets. I have another drive for games, and yet another drive for important stuff like photos. My OS drive has my most used apps (and some more games) but nothing else. And finally another external or two with duplicate data as backups.

    Plus if all your assets are located on one dedicated drive, it is much easier to move that drive to another PC. Just plug the asset drive up and point Daz Studio to it. You never need to reinstall content.

    sage advice. thanks 

  • nonesuch00nonesuch00 Posts: 17,954

    My worst computer purchase was an ASUS EEE Slate EP121 Tablet in March 2012 I think it was (a Windows Surface before the real one so to speak) for about $1250 USD. It came with Windows 7, a buggy driver error ridden upgrade to Windows 8 after a year, and by 1 1/2 years the internal lithium ion battery overheated, exploded, and actually melted the Wacom digitizer screen and internal components. The 223GB SSD is still working though in another computer. A colossal waste of money and a total loss of money. Had the very 1st of the new arch Intel 4 thread CPUs with the new GPU design that they are still updating to this day, albiet with enhancements.

  • TorquinoxTorquinox Posts: 2,703
    edited May 2023

    AllenArt said:

    My suggestion? Build your own system ;) Unfortunately, it's not the greatest time in the world to buy a computer (costly).

    That's odd. I haven't checked prices. That said, Outrider42 is adamant that some component prices have dropped to pre-pandemic levels - Except for NVidia cards. Well, remaining stock of 30xx series are available at favorable prices, but 40xx are not a good value for the money. I don't expect they care. This article explains they are awash in AI money and on the verge of being a trillion-dollar company. The upshot is, you're right. It should be a pretty good time to build your own pc from parts.

    Post edited by Torquinox on
  • davesodaveso Posts: 6,484
    edited May 2023

    Torquinox said:

    AllenArt said:

    My suggestion? Build your own system ;) Unfortunately, it's not the greatest time in the world to buy a computer (costly).

    That's odd. I haven't checked prices. That said, Outrider42 is adamant that some component prices have dropped to pre-pandemic levels - Except for NVidia cards. Well, remaining stock of 30xx series are available at favorable prices, but 40xx are not a good value for the money. I don't expect they care. This article explains they are awash in AI money and on the verge of being a trillion-dollar company. The upshot is, you're right. It should be a pretty good time to build your own pc from parts.

    I've looked at both mehtods and I've found that buying a pre-built is less expensive. When you add the GPU, the price skyrockets. Yes, they've come down, but still high. The time it takes to get parts that are compatible, and all that is just not worth it to me anyway.  I've been looking for 2 years. The thing is, I see people here buying systems all the time with no problem handing out thousands of dollars, but I have a very limited budget so its not as easy to buy. I know pretty much what I want, so it makes no sense to me to compromise. Prices in the past would go down on older generations, but they dont as much anymore. I always waited and bought one gen back, now yu need to go 2 or 3 which does not give me any gain other than soedning more money. I'm getting by with my current system, even with its numerous crashes, so far, although sooner or later its going to crash and not come back up. I've had to replace defective cables, hard drives, I'm pretty sure the MB is screwed up. Its pointless to try and upgrade it. 

    Anyway ... yeah, 

     

    Post edited by daveso on
  • TorquinoxTorquinox Posts: 2,703

    Sometimes one must actually decide to buy. Once that happens, the rest falls into place. I prefer building my own because I can pick the parts and I feel comfortable doing the assembly. As you already noted, the pre-built machines are a bit lacking in storage. Also, you have to be careful about what components they put in the system - A processor is not a processor. There are differences between generations and even within a generation..$2100 should be enough to build a serviceable computer. Now is not necessarily the best time of year to buy a pre-built, but it could work. Up to you.

  • AgitatedRiotAgitatedRiot Posts: 4,305

    I built my system: four TB SSD and 8 TB HHD for games and Daz Content. Click on my system in sig to see the setup. Both are Internal.

  • outrider42outrider42 Posts: 3,679

    Not all parts are cheaper, but a number of parts are indeed getting cheaper. Memory is one component that has seen big price drops. DDR5 happened to launch right around when prices got crazy, and any new DDR is expensive at first, too. So that was a nasty double blow. But prices have dropped down to where it competes with DDR4 in places.

    People also forget the market has swung up and down for ages. 16gb DDR4 was was going for $200 in 2018 due to a shortage at that time. That was for 16gb! Today you can get 32gb of DDR4 for under $100. You can get 32gb of new DDR5 for not much more. PC part picker has price charts, though they only go back 18 months. You can see the clear trend of nearly all of them going down.

    https://pcpartpicker.com/trends/price/memory/

    SSDs have been free falling lately, which is why it is a good idea to just get your own rather than have the prebuilds put it in. Here's a recent article talking about the falling prices. This article also goes on to state that prices should keep dropping for the foreseeable future.

    https://www.anandtech.com/show/18777/prices-of-nand-flash-drop-rapidly-so-do-prices-of-ssds

    You can get a high quality 2tb M.2 for just over $100 these days. 4tb is becoming surprisingly cheap. I paid almost $400 for my 4tb SSD before COVID hit, and you can get a M.2 with 4tb for $225 now! (M.2 is faster). A regular SATA SSD might be a decent option for Daz assets, since they are super easy to pop in. Depending on the motherboard, you might need to remove the GPU temporarily to get a M.2 in. If you can do that, they are easy to do. SSDs are also very power efficient and tougher than most people realize. Also, the larger capacity a SSD is, the longer it can last. It has to do with how SSDs move data around to prevent wear. A decent SSD can in theory live longer than we will. I wouldn't count on that much life out of them, but all of my SSDs are still rocking, including my first one, a 256GB Samsung EVO. In fact Crystal Disc reports that all of my SSDs have at least 97% of their life left.

    Another cool thing about SSD and M.2 is that they are very easy to turn into a portable storage. You do not need to buy a portable drive, you can just turn your SSD into one, and when you are done with it, you can take it out and put it back in the PC. To be fair, you can do this with regular hard drives, too, but it is less practical because of how unwieldy they are. Plus they have moving parts, not really ideal for being portable. But a M.2 enclosure can be super portable, and it might even impress your friends.

    So while some PC parts are still a bit high, memory is not one of them. If you do a prebuild, you can skimp on memory on the purchase and add your own after you get the PC. Memory is the easiest thing to upgrade, and today memory is one of the cheapest things to upgrade, too.

    Power supplies are getting pretty reasonable, too. They built a lot of them during the crypto boom, so they have excess inventory for a lot of models. You can find a wide variety of decent PSUs pretty cheap now.

    If you don't go with brand spanking new, you can last gen AMD 5000 CPUs on good deals, along with matching motherboards. You do not need the fastest CPUs for Daz Studio. Your needs may vary based on other software, but almost any recent CPU is going to be decent for base tasks. If Daz Studio is the main software used, I always advise skimping some of CPU in order to target the best GPU possible. You do not have to have a well balanced system for Daz. As long as the CPU isn't junk it will do fine. Your GPU handles the rendering, so the CPU only needs to run the application itself. With this strategy, you can buy a GPU a tier or two higher than otherwise, which is often worth it. The only exception are those goofy instances where Nvidia puts out a 12gb 3060 or 16gb 4060ti, that has higher VRAM capacity than the tiers above it. That depends on how valuable VRAM is to the user though. With the 3060 I think it was pretty clear cut, but with the 4060ti it may not be. The 4070 having 12gb now could be enough, and it is so much faster than the 4060ti. Plus it will only be $100 more than the 16gb 4060ti.

    So the GPU is still kind of high. It is too bad that AMD is not an option, because AMD GPUs are pretty cheap now (at least last gen). It is really just Nvidia that is holding out here.

  • AgitatedRiotAgitatedRiot Posts: 4,305
    edited May 2023

    @outrider42 I went with an M.2 NVMe I went with the PCIe bus connection on my board instead of the SATA bus

    Currently, the speed for an NVMe PCIe 3.0 (aka Gen 3) SSD is up to 3,500MB per second. An NVMe PCIe 4.0 (aka Gen 4) SSD can hit up to 7,500MB per second. On the other hand, the SATA SSDs hit speeds of up to 500MB per second.

    Post edited by AgitatedRiot on
  • DripDrip Posts: 1,149

    External drives seem to be the way to go these days, unless you know your way around the inside of a computer and know what cables to use, what power supply to choose, etcetera, then you can still configure and tweak your computer the "old fashioned" way by adding more internal drives. If you've been with Daz for a while, and want to have all your content readily available, then a 6 or even 10 TeraByte hard drive is not a luxury, but a necessity. Is still find 3 internal drives to be ideal for myself, but it's different for everybody:
    1 SSD for the Operating System, and just a very small selection of programs that I often use.
    1 small but fast HDD which I use for the Swap File (or Virtual Memory managament) of the OS. This HDD can experience a lot of read/write operations, and a slow drive will make my computer noticably slower. 500 GB is usually enough for this, but a bit bigger won't hurt, just as long as it's fast.
    1 medium to large HDD, as fast as I can afford, where I install software. The requirement really depends on what you use. Just a few office programs? Then 2 TB should be enough. Also lots of games? You'll want 4TB or bigger!
    Data I store on external HDDs. That includes my Daz content, and even a 10TB HDD can fill up! Good thing it's so easy to just add another when things get out of hand, so now I can split up my data: one HDD with content I bought, and a seperate one with data/content I created. And then there's still an old smaller one where I stored stuff like music, family pictures, etc..

    However, there is something to consider, especially for an external HDD, and I'm afraid it's a slightly technical matter again... You still want a relatively fast hard drive to store your Daz content. For HDD's, the speed is usually listed in RPM (rotations per minute) 7,200 RPM is generally fine for Daz content, loading almost anything in a matter of seconds, but a faster HDD is still a noticable improvement.
    But, the speed of your HDD isn't the only speed limitation. It's also limited by the type of USB port on your computer, and whether the external HDD supports it. The older USB-2 is noticably slower than USB-3, to the point that it can bottleneck even a 7,200 RPM external harddrive. Most modern computers come with USB-3 ports, but they come with USB-2 ports as well, so you really have to be aware which ports are which on your computer, since they can be used interchangably, just with the cost of speed if you happen to pick the USB-2 port. When you get a new computer, mark the USB-3 ports, add a sticker above them or paint a little dot, whatever, just so you know to reserve those ports for your external HDD, and plug peripherals that don't need high speed connections, (like a tailed mouse, your phone, webcam, whatevers) into the slower USB-2 ports.

  • davesodaveso Posts: 6,484

    My thought in the past was to buy a gen or two back, to enable a decent deal. My system now with the 2070 Super is actually not too bad, and to move  one  gen doesn;t seem worth spending the cash overall for minimal gain or maybe meaningful gain. When I piece together components I always end up around $2500 for whatever reason.... beyond my budget for sure. I had been looking at 3080 systems, which I felt would hold me for a few years, but the individual cards are still fairly pricey. 

    I think I might be at a stalemate right now...I prefer internal HDD for sure overall ... I'm off to parts picker to see what I can throw together

  • doubledeviantdoubledeviant Posts: 1,055
    daveso said:

    My thought in the past was to buy a gen or two back, to enable a decent deal.

    That's how I prefer to go about it, in general - the better machines of last year are often available at significant discounts as the new cards proliferate. If prices aren't attractive right now, just watch for a good deal and don't rush it.

    You could also consider using a store's installment payment plan or credit program, if you have good credit. And if not, you could start building your credit (for example, with a credit card that you pay off every month, used only for gasoline or some other regularly-purchased necessity), and watch for markdowns and sales in the meantime.
  • TaozTaoz Posts: 9,743

    PerttiA said:

    The drive that holds ones OS doesn't need to be big, 1TB is plenty enough. In general one should not use that drive to store anything else but the OS and the Programs, everything else should be put on some other drive. External ones are good for storing Daz content, large and cheap.

    +1

Sign In or Register to comment.