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And yup, I did comment on that thread... See old brain! lmao
Oh, I thought that Poser had that same "General" weight mapping but didn't have the TriAx weight mapping..........
That's what a lot of people are probably secretly hoping.
And it isn't a proprietary system, so they wouldn't be stomping on each others' toes as in the Poser weightmapping vs. TriAx split where neither program would deal with the other system without somebody doing all kinds of backbends.
All it would take would be for Smith-Micro to decide to support it either as well as or instead of their own system and we'd be back to just having to deal with the minor lighting and materials conflicts -- which are pretty old news.
Of course, it might be a program version or two before they would be able to implement it in whatever version of Poser they would be shipping, and by then DAZ would be up to Genesis 4, but I think they are likely to still be using this rigging version.
To be honest i really wish the people at the other sites would sell on the offical marketplace more.....the problem is those other sites do not get installers that you can use to just automatically install the products. and to me more so with clothing and the new "outfits" catagory with gen3 which now give you more full outfits to select based on your items ........it just is a big bonus. I really think the other marketplaces just fractures the content base and it just to me would make more since if they would release their stuff here unless daz requires some percentage that they dont agree on or something but what gets me is i see some venders who do both but end up only releasing stuff on the other site.
just wish it was just consolidated more here........oh well
monopolies are not good. That is why the other stores exist. Also they are more lenient in some ways, which makes some content creators have room to start up. Some of the stuff sold elsewhere would never get on the store here.
Also there are other reasons to set up shop elsewhere. For example, you want to make your own store and profit from stuff other people submit to ya :)
When you see PAs disappear from one store for years, there are reasons :) When you see that PAs flip back and forth from stores there is a reason. There is one PA who I won't name who I could only get their good stuff from another place, even when they sold here too. The stuff they sold here was way weaker than what they sold elsewhere, less bang for the buck. Less functionality. Eventually things changed for the better on this store and things worked out to where after a few years we get the same type of stuff they used to sell elsewhere, sometimes.
Another PA makes awesome goodies, but the stuff they sell here isn't nearly on the legendary scale other stuff elsewere...I can only assume its all the QA and quality controls that kill off super duper ambitious efforts. (part of it is also likely genesis vs v4 as well. the super duper stuff is still only V4)
Admittedly I stopped buying elsewhere for my own reasons, but it wasn't installers.
A site like Rendo that is now supporting so many female characters some that even DAZ doesn't - V4, Dawn, Genesis, G2F, G3F, Scarlett, Michelle, Roxie etc. etc.... it has really sqeezed out male figures and clothes... I looked at 4 pages on new products and only found 1 M4 outfit and 1 male alien character... the rest is female stuff or shaders/etc.
I think Poser's next release, whenever it comes, will be their make or break version. Even I have started considering switching over to using DS as my primary software just because it's clear that when the primarily Poser oriented sites start selling more and more DS related content, that DS has taken the lead.
People complain here about the lack of male stuff, but you are correct, it is even worse at some of the other stores
Well stated. I'm getting my feet wet, and happily so, as a merchant at Hivewire with their figures. Love their figures partially because they work in both programs. Might have broken a rule or something saying that out loud but it is what it is. I'm enjoying the process and aside from a few hurdles most of the info I need is out there or a holler away to help me out. If things go well sure, I can see myself selling here but for the time being starting smaller with a group of folks I like working with is just fine. So selling exclusively? I get it but I hate monopolies in all aspects of our way of life. We need to keep the Ma and Pa places going, keeps the big kahoona's on their toes!
There are some cases where DAZ will take the fiscally conservative path and not take an item type that either hasn't sold for them before or underperformed the last time they tried something similar. That, or an existing PA is expected to submit a similar item "any day now" that would be competition for something a new submitter has already sent in for review.
DAZ is frankly a better store to get noticed in. Once you have a solid following, do a partial move to somewhere else. Much easier to build hype and not get buried under the sheer weight of daily releases in some places *coughrendocough*.
you have to get your items approved first, ignoring that is foolish. A huge part of crafting a stock item is quality control. I can make a dress in 10 minutes. But it would take hours to get it to work for whatever flavor of the month shaders are sold, shapes are popular etc. Other stores are more lenient on this.
Daz is bigger, sure. No one ever disputed that. No need to defend them. But you would have to be ignoring the truth to say it's easier to get content on this store.
I see a lot of vendors who have been in the game for 10 years still selling most of their stuff elsewhere. There is a reason :) And for some of them, the stuff they do sell for daz is almost all DO. Says something. To those who can evaluate things :)
OK, here goes... Most of this is cobbled together from various math and CGI theory sites that are frankly way beyond my level.
Poser and (I assume) DS use a 3 element vector to represent a point on a mesh. Manipulating the mesh involves using 3X3 matrices to manipulate the coordinates of the mesh. This system is called Euler Angles.
Euler Angles suffer from a problem called Gimbal Lock, in which an object can lose one axis of rotation if two of the axes are in alignment.
Quaternions use 4 element vectors to represent a point and manipulations are done with 4X4 matrices. This is one solution to Gimbal Lock.
Dual Quaternions use a pair of quaternions. I don't know what the advantage of this is.
Manipulating a point using Euler Angles requires 9 Multiplications (and 6 additions which are trivial for speed purposes)
Quaternions require 16 Multiplications (and 12 additions, again trivial).
The reason that Poser used Euler Angles was due to the computing power available.
Now I guess that there's enough computing power on many desktops to deal with quaternions in a reasonable time.
And oddly general weight mapping is what I use myself to rig stuff for export to iClone,
I only convert to triad after if using it in DAZ studio .... and Carrara if it works there, most do not until I re-export from iClone which also works for G3F BTW. I am finding creating a cr2 export can also work though but a tad hit and miss I often lose bits of geometry if not named for each bone.
I have been rigging stuff in studio more often than Carrara lately as you can add bones without losing rigging and change the hierarchy too.
For those modelling stuff for games DAZ could be the next free popular rigging solution instead of Blender but I suspect once the word for that gets out there it may end its free status for advanced and pro versions.
Why give up the poser content? Most of it is usable in Daz Studio.
I think at this point zombie appocolyps is more likely than DAZ leaving the current business model of a free Studio. It not only draws new users, but also means most people are in the same version and there is good compatability for product that they sell. Did they sell it at one point? Yes, and they realized that it wasn't the best model and course corrected. Since then it has been smooth sailing with more updates and improvments than ever before. Pretty sure they would be thrilled to see the game folk pulling studio into thier work flow more since they have an eye on the gaming market already.
I've been thinking the exact same thing. With iRay - which probably was another reason for outside vendors to give DAZ another shot - and Genesis 2 and now 3 really gaining momentum outside of DAZ, Smith Micro will need to come up with a few good arguments for people to stay with / adopt Poser.
Personally, while I really don't like the current divide between Poser and DAZ users, I think we really need some strong competition for DAZ given how aggressive and often - not always - customer-unfriendly their marketing has become. They need a reason to fight for our appreciation.
Don't Daz now own Renderosity? That could explain the sudden lean towards G3.
Other than that, I for one can't stand DS. I tried 4.8, and still don't like it.
I've used Genesis and Genesis 2 figures in Poser, and they work fine. Genesis 3 doesn't even work in Carrara! So Daz are alienating users from two different camps.
No.
Some statistics from counts made by me, today 09/05/15 measured in where-you-already-know:
First number: quantity of products per figure in the first 5 pages (a total of 240 products)
Second number: quantity of products per figure in the following 6 pages (a total of 288 products)
Total: Sum of first and second numbers per figure in the first 11 pages (a total of 528 products)
Pages ordered in new-first way.
G3F = 77 + 73 = 150
G2F = 21 + 38 = 59
G1 = 3 + 3 = 6
V4 = 44 + 71 = 115
G2M = 1 + 10 = 11
M4 = 1 + 11 = 12
Iray = 10 + 9 = 19
Señorita D = 1 + 4 = 5
Señorita S = 2 + 5 = 7
Included for figure: Clothes, textures for clothes, skins, morphs, poses, expressions, hair. Excluded:Textures for hair (I'm lazy
)
Included for Iray: standalone shader and using in V4 products promos.
I'm wondering whether the dropping of the Triax rigging might be one of the reasons for this sudden adoption by 3rd-party vendors.
No. I think the primary factor here is that G2F caused a lot of Poser-only content creators to give Daz Studio a second look. G2F is what caused the popularity of Daz Studio to explode, but it was rather gradual.
The overwhelming majority of vendors who are making G3F products are the same vendors who were attracted to Studio by Genesis 2.
Also, let's not forget that G2F was released just 2 weeks prior to Dawn. Initially, Dawn was as popular on Rendo as G2F, but the popularity dwindled substantially after 6 to 8 months, while G2F's steadily increased.
Iray got even more converts, though still not as many as G2F.
To be honest i really wish the people at the other sites would sell on the offical marketplace more.....
I really think the other marketplaces just fractures the content base and it just to me would make more sence if they would release their stuff here unless daz requires some percentage that they dont agree on or something but what gets me is i see some venders who do both but end up only releasing stuff on the other site.
just wish it was just consolidated more here........oh well
There is a reason for that. Renderosity has the most lenient product requirements between Daz, Rendo, and RDNA. For one thing, Daz requires metadata for most things, and has stricter quality control than Rendo does. I think the biggest thing however, is that Daz does not allow products from off-site to be used in promos, nor are add-ons for off-site products permitted.
Also, I can't recall for certain, but I think the proceeds penalty for non-exclusives is slightly lower at Rendo. I looked it up at one point but I can't remember the results for certain.
Yeah that is the one thing I have noticed too, in that there is a lot of gear coming out for G3F, but very little for G2F/G2M to me at least the G2 series is being thrown on the heap like many others.. V3 was good, V4 was great, G1 was pretty good and G2 was really good to, but G3 seems to be on its way to becoming so popular that it is likely to outshine all previous generations at the utter detriment to those previous generations..
Yes. The female vs male product ratio is exponentially more pronounced on Renderosity and RDNA.
Daz does allow off site products to be used in promos and as far as I'm aware are prepared to sell add on products for off site products it just doesn't happen very often at all.
@GiGi_7: thank you for the painstaking job. Numbers and, more important, trends, leave no place for discussion.
I'd guess that DS also has to use something other than purely QUATS to store angles. And (according to stuff I've read from someone who works on the internals of much more serious 3D software than either DS or Poser) these other programs use Euler internally.
Near as I can tell, the limitation has to do with Quats only being able to deal with 0-360. -90 = 270 as far as a quat is concerned. However, for things like animation (imagine dynamic clothing of a spinning figure), 360+90 is not the same as 0+90.
Due to the math of picking up the extra dimension, QUATS are great for game engines (not a lot of RT dynamics there). And great for human joint movement, where angles don't exceed 360. So they seem super convenient for skeletal motion.
From what I understand, QUATS advantage isn't that it takes *more* computing power. They make the math easier for a computer (I guess it's why game engines use them). But they're not intuitive since they rely on an extra dimension we're just not wired for. Here's an example of the math convenience: combining QUAT angles is just multiplication. Order matters, of course. But Cool, huh? Also, QUATS are great for interprolation.
Based on what little I know and what I've read, the preference of Dual quats over triax has to do with setting up the mesh. Which is not a small thing. In triax, every single mesh point requires 3 settings. That's a lot of work.
I think SM needs to incorporate dual quat support into Poser. It's pretty much an industry standard and the math is pretty easy (which is why it is). Dual QUATs is not the be all and end all of skinning over skeleton. In fact, by itself, it's lame. G3 requires a pile of JCMs.
Is DUAL QUAT + JCMs better than Triax? I would guess so, given that I can't imagine the G3 developer wanting to do *more* work than necessary. Anyway, there's way better stuff out there.
I'm hoping Poser and DS switch to something even better, like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHySGIqEgyk. OMG, I so want this! :)
Combine this with the microfacet skin stuff and you have realistic that leaves uncanny valley way behind.
That being said, there appears to be no tech required for G3 that SM shouldn't have in Poser. There's nothing "gee whiz" in her rig (tech-wise, not art-wise) that I can see. Then SM and Daz can compete in workflow and user interface, rather than rigging. And content creators can make a single product that works in both (and possibly, more). Wins all around. The ball seems to be in SM's court.
I completely agree (as a former long-time Poser user and a relatively new DS user).
Laurie
I just bought the body and face morphs for Genesis Female 3, found a tone slider for the legs are their morphs for the rest of the body thet can be set to -100 for smoothing or relaxing other areas of the figure while retaining the overall shape or will I need to purchase "Megan" and/ or "The Girl 7" as well?
The funny thing is, it seems like whenever I do a specific search for some item, whether it's a type of clothing or a pose, the results almost always tend to show up for M4. It's like "Dang guys c'mon, let's start producing stuff for Gen 3 males before we move to Gen 8 already!"
I read assertions like this quite often and it seems to me a bit
reductive to suggest that it is a simple matter of Smith micro
"supporting the rigging tech" in G3 and all will again be good for the poser users.
One has to look at what smith micro as a company would have to
gain by recoding their app to supporting a figure that they do not own or control.
A figure who could at any time, going forward could be, supplanted
by its succesor who will work fine in Daz studio pro 5.5 or 6
but be"new and improved" just enough to break poser compatibility and once again start the fanciful chase after the magical unicorn.
Getting the Daz genesis 3 ,4 etc and ALL of its content to work
NATIVELY in poser with the exact same Functionaly it has in Daz
studio including Autofit and all of the third party stuff like GENX 2
etc. ,Will likely require more than SM just "Adding support for
Dual Quat".
And anything less than full functionality will not be widely embraced by the poser faithful as they have to PAY for their new versions of poser ..unlike Daz studio users.
There are high end "pro" apps that support Dual Quat rigging
yet none of them magically bring in a genesis 3 figure with ALL of the functionality she/he has within Daz studio.
This is because that full functionality is dependant on more than just the rigging type in use.
And what of content management?
and ,DIM ,Daz connect?
For SM to Claim official support for G3 they will by necessity be responsible for G3 content Management
I will be as charitable as I can and simply say that the flash based library system in poser will not be sufficient for this task.
I wonder how many prime Daz PA's would bother supporting that "iteration"of Cycles that has been shoe horned into posers recent version.
Poser has Many, Many Fundamental core problems that need to be addressed that will not not be solved simply by adding support for G3's rigging style.
I think, Poser would be better off business-wise doing what the Morph 3D business is trying to do for DAZ 3D. I think if Smith Micro would to build round-trip pipelines to Blender and Unity 3D, especially when Unity 3D has finished builting in support for Otoy Octane rendering and if they were to add PBR material creation in Poser and gear their technological advancements to servicing the Unity enviroment they'd be sitting pretty.
Anyone would be better off business-wise entering the Game dev /content market when one considers that gaming revenue exceeds that of hollywood and music combined.
It is however is highly competitive and one must do research and produce content of the highest quality along with a very competitive license
Smith micro Did attempt to enter the game dev market with the release of this:
https://www.assetstore.unity3d.com/en/#!/content/20703
$500 USD...
Feel free to read the reviews and form your own opinion
about how well it was recevied by the Unity game dev community.
Two years later they released poser 11 which is now on sale for $50 USD and includes ALL of the"game export" features that are in the "Game Dev" version that is languishing in some forgotten corner of the unity asset store.
They Already Have a PBR material Creation System for their new Cycles based render engine.
http://www.jurn.org/dazposer/?p=5391
The most important thing to consider is the cost of the content licensing.
After the release of the poser pro game dev version ,Former SM product manager Steve cooper was in their forums trying to recruit content makers to build content for the Game dev version.
not sure how successful that effort was however.
I have a Poser Game Developer license and yes, like DAZ 3D they have sales for big discounts but it's the Poser Pro 11 or the Poser 10 Pro Game Development versions and not the $50 Poser 10 or 11 versions that are allowed to be used in game dev and I've seen that at $225 but no less which is a great bargain but not $50. $225 is about cheap as you can reasonably expect for all that content and Poser Pro to be licenced for game development.
And this Poser PBR material creation cabability you gave a link to, that's not very informative link but I will look at Poser 11 Pro PBR material creation more closely now. I have the previous version where they have a Poser, Poser Pro, and Poser Pro Game Dev license.
What I mean in addition is the need to create plugins for Unity to create a dressing room and menuing system to change the character in Unity by game devs after exporting as FBXes to Unity and they need to create an easy to use Poser model access API in C# to use by Unity game devs and Unity animators (with the coming Octane Render engine)
Yes, a programmer can do those things easy enough but that is where SM & DAZ are thinking like 3D modelers or programmers - most people using Unity are not programmers or 3D artists and are feeling their way through the best they can: eg I am a programmer but I still have to feel my way though the massive conglomeration of 3D modeling technology that is Poser or that is DAZ Studio or that is the 3D modeling industry - well most people doing Unity as a hobby must do that to and do the same thing with game technology in general and then you add in they must learn 2D art creation or 3D model creation to make anything unique and it's too much to reasonably ask for a hobbyist but lo and behold that is what they are marketing these game dev and 3D model alteration tools as and so that needs to be more improved to make the hype. And, although Unity is getting good at eliminating that learning curve for creating games and with the programming technology learning, again Unity is doing a good job there, I think SM and DAZ 3D need to do similarly as outstanding a job in the Unity environment for game developer and animator hobbyists as Unity has for those hobbyists.
SM and Poser as the experts on 3D modeling, the Poser models, and FBX exchange format with many experienced capable programmers and modelers should make it as easy as possible to create unique characters and scenes in Unity for these hobby customers.
SM has the content already for 90% of the gaming dev hobby customer's needs but they need to be making it where that content can be made to look unique easily in the Unity game engine and Unity game editor directly by the hobbyist. They have not created that sort integrated Poser - Unity plugin pipeline although their programmers are the more knowlegeble and sutied to do so. There is still a big market for clothing and hair styles after that integration is done.
That said, no one else has yet. Morph 3D is a attempt but falls short so far.
I know SM Moho content is increasing in quality & quantiy though not as fast as the DAZ 3D store's 3D content. They need to similarly improve that with a Unity plugin although Unity in January is integrating a much 2D bone system but I'm not sure if it can handle Moho format files natively which would be ideal and the sort of Unity plugin Smith Micro should be developing.