Bye Bye Daz3d

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  • shadowhawk1shadowhawk1 Posts: 1,696
    edited December 1969

    WOW this thread has gotten way off track! It started out with a very vague hint from a site admin that Genesis might be poser friendly soon, and then disappears to later post only one more time about Genesis working in Maya. Doesn't anyone other than me find that just a LITTLE strange? You would think if this were true that the individual in question would have posted here more giving updates. Unless of course he spoke out of turn. Now this thread is falling into that same old song and dance that happens whenever Genesis is brought up. Does it really matter which program is better? People like Poser for some of the same reasons that people like DS3, 4 and 4.5. Do I have both programs? yes I do. Which one do I use? Does it really matter? Do I think that Genesis will be poser friendly? maybe, but it won't be the same Genesis that is used in DS because the weight mapping is different. Now if they figured a way to use the new plug in that the SR3 pack gave Poser, maybe both groups will be able to use Genesis, until that time is it really worth fighting over just to get another thread locked?

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 28,637
    edited December 1969

    Kyoto Kid said:

    ...Steph5 is too bulky and has no where near the body shapes and controls her Gen4 counterpart has.. She also doesn't have the specialty morph sets either and is also more expensive (which is why I didn't get her). The other thing is, I already have working versions of my LeelaTeen and LeelaChild character models. Genesis really has little to add save for maybe making her butt flatten better when she sits.

    ...but i can do the same with her in Poser 2012 without having to rebuild her from scratch.

    Unfortunately I have yet to see one Gen4 morph with Steph4 that looks like a teen... just a short adult. Generally you need to do a lot face work, mostly custom to get a younger face out of her. And of course of you need to work on her body shape more because a teen doesn't have the proportions that Steph has... so you can't do custom bodies unless you got a copy of Morphing Clothes.

    Can you do a better teen with steph5? It really gets down to your skill in making faces; it's not as simple as mixing child in. However, that's where the beauty of Genesis comes in, because you're not restricted in what you can change. But it's certainly not a lot more expensive to do it... getting more aquainted with the tools in blender or hexagon and loading your results in with morph loader pro and you're already way ahead in making custom morphs with Gen4, that is if you're actually working on making a believable teen.... moving dials in either Gen4 or Genesis isn't really going to do it.
    ...I spent a good deal of time developing my LeelaTeen.

    I feel my best success was with Stph4 and Jamminolf's teen morphs for Tindra Thompson. Most of the work I did was the head and face which included a little "A4 realistic" (with the eye angles at negative values) as well.

    I do agree that basic teen characters (Like Luke and Laura3) still had too much of an "adult" face for my taste. which is why I set out to try and develop my Leela character on my own. This led to a lot of experience working with V4 and one of Thorne's characters (Tommi was a real help when she was released) before Daz introduced Steph4.

    As I am not all that skilled yet at modelling and even worse at scripting (which is too much like programing, ugh - been there, burned out on it years ago), creating custom morphs is pretty much out of the question.

    Where my LeelaTeen is concerned, I feel I achieved my best results in PoserPro2010

  • tsaristtsarist Posts: 1,097
    edited December 1969

    ssgbryan said:
    because we haven't had a good male business suit since the Casablanca Suit for M3.
    Have you seen the M4 Business Suit?
    I think it's kind of cool. As suits go.
    http://www.daz3d.com/shop/michael-4-business-suit
    I couldn't find the Casablanca suit here in the marketplace. Did it get vaulted?


    ssgbryan said:
    I really, really like that Cthulhu that Luthbel developed.

    Yea, that Cthulhu rocks! It was in my cart, then I realised it was Genesis only, so out it came.


    The most popular model isn't genesis, it is still V4. I was around for the Gen3/Gen4 switch. New Gen3 content simply disappeared within 90 days at every content sight under the sun. After more than a year since the release of DS4, Gen4 content development hasn't dropped off in the slightest. 90% of genesis content is sold at DAZ.


    I was around for the Gen3/Gen4 switch too. Gen3 fell off the Earth overnight. It was scary. There were a few diehards saying they didn't want to upgrade, I remember the posts, but not like what's happening now. You can still get lots of brand new stuff for Gen4 and it's coming out every week (especially over at Rendo).

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 28,637
    edited September 2012

    Zev0 said:
    "...Steph5 is too bulky and has no where near the body shapes and controls her Gen4 counterpart has.. She also doesn’t have the specialty morph sets either and is also more expensive (which is why I didn’t get her). The other thing is, I already have working versions of my LeelaTeen and LeelaChild character models. Genesis really has little to add save for maybe making her butt flatten better when she sits."

    Kyoto Kid, I completely find this statement incorrect. You see, people are so used to stand alone shapes they forget what Genesis is about. Using S5 on her own will give you limited results yes. BUT, combine her with Genx transfers and Genesis morphs and she has more control and morphs than any Gen4 counterpart. Also please post a pic of this leelateen of yours. I want to see the body structure. I bet I can duplicate it with ease or even make a better one using S5 and my morphs from Genx:) You keep downtalking Genesis, lets put your Gen4 models to the test:) I will show you the power of Genesis.


    ...I have pics of her posted all over the forums. I also have a gallery devoted to her at DA. which goes back to the Studio1.7 days. The most recent pic I did is here (#1) and the best I've done in the Studio app (#2)
    leela_child_of_war_rescaled.jpg
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    leela_and_momma_3A.jpg
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    Post edited by kyoto kid on
  • Zev0Zev0 Posts: 5,385
    edited December 1969

    Those show me nothing. I cannot see body shape and details. Post her in underwear or a bather. Standing up. Your clothing is hiding the body shape, which is what I want to see.

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 28,637
    edited December 1969

    Zev0 said:
    Those show me nothing. I cannot see body shape and details. Post her in underwear or a bather. Standing up. Your clothing is hiding the body shape, which is what I want to see.

    ...all I have in he way of underclothing is Victorian style so that will have to do.

    ...created and rendered in PoserPro2010.

    LeelaTeen.jpg
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  • Zev0Zev0 Posts: 5,385
    edited September 2012

    See my examples below, One is a teen, the other a little younger.

    Both using S5 and Genx Transfers. Took me a whole 10 min to do both.

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    1.jpg
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    Post edited by Zev0 on
  • SpyroRueSpyroRue Posts: 5,014
    edited December 1969

    WOW ZEV!! Not bad at all!! :cheese:

  • Zev0Zev0 Posts: 5,385
    edited September 2012

    Thanks...Kyoto Kids figure is not bad, but it flows incorrectly, Eg the neck blends incorrectly into the head. The thighs contours are also incorrect, and suffers from the usual ugly v4 bends on elbows and shoulders.

    Post edited by Zev0 on
  • ManStanManStan Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    ManStan said:
    probably losing all the weight mapping that makes genesis genesis. {not saying there is one, it's just what I think they are talking about}

    Weightmaps aren't what makes Genesis "Genesis"... it is the morphs and how you can combine them to make new creations... the weightmaps dynamically supports how that creation bends when posed.

    A bit late getting back to this, but weight mapping is what genesis is all about. Weight mapping is what makes genesis genesis. The mil 4 characters had just as many morphs and did them just as well. Multiple morphs on a single figure is nothing new.

  • JasmineSkunkJasmineSkunk Posts: 1,253
    edited September 2012

    I gave her a quick spin for you, too, KK... now... I didn't spend a whole lot of time on this...cuz it's pretty late(early) here, but just to give you an idea of what's possible. In the first pic, you can kinda see what combinations of shapes I used. The second one is a straight render with no lights in the scene from DS4.5

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    Post edited by JasmineSkunk on
  • estheresther Posts: 559
    edited December 1969

    that does look really nice.

  • TaozTaoz Posts: 5,755
    edited December 1969

    DAZ provides content, and that's where their emphasis has been.

    Which makes it hard for me to understand why they give away the whole DS4 Pro package including the content creation tools so people can create their own content. And with Genesis even much easier than before.

  • JasmineSkunkJasmineSkunk Posts: 1,253
    edited December 1969

    Thanks! :)
    here she is with a smaller head...lol:

    ok...I'm done...I need sleep! :)

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  • SpyroRueSpyroRue Posts: 5,014
    edited December 1969

    Taozen said:
    DAZ provides content, and that's where their emphasis has been.

    Which makes it hard for me to understand why they give away the whole DS4 Pro package including the content creation tools so people can create their own content. And with Genesis even much easier than before.

    Because they're making their money off the add on content. Models are like games. To keep existing customers and entice new customers they must be upgraded to keep up with technology and to keep a grasp on the market.

  • T JaimanT Jaiman Posts: 540
    edited September 2012

    There's that.

    Taozen said:
    DAZ provides content, and that's where their emphasis has been.

    Which makes it hard for me to understand why they give away the whole DS4 Pro package including the content creation tools so people can create their own content. And with Genesis even much easier than before.

    Top 2 reasons, IMO:

    Freebie makers - freebies are important to a character's acceptance.

    Vendors - those who wouldn't spend a dime on DS, would automatically download the full set of tools, just in case. And most vendors got that way from a love of playing with new tools.

    Here's a more complete version of my second-guessing. I'd just paste it, but that might possibly be against their definition of spam.

    Trying to get the place presentable for a visitor who's coming this morning, or I'd adapt it.

    Post edited by T Jaiman on
  • TaozTaoz Posts: 5,755
    edited December 1969

    OK, I see your points.

    SM hasn't got weary of Genesis according to the latest news though, as far as I understand?

  • T JaimanT Jaiman Posts: 540
    edited September 2012

    Taozen said:
    OK, I see your points.

    SM hasn't got weary of Genesis according to the latest news though, as far as I understand?

    Yeah, if our speculation is right about SM's participation. (Sorry I harp on that, but it would be a Daz move to let us build our expectations. And thread-read stats prove that a lot more people read than reply).

    Genesis is successful, now. Back then, It could be perceived that Genesis acceptance might be leveling off.

    Now Autofit preserves morphs, DS4.5 is remarkably stable, Pro has been free for a ridiculously long time, and the community has much of the CCT tutorial-ed. (I'm sure I'm overlooking other points of improvement).

    Also, the TPTB of the Poser division, didn't seem to take weight-mapping seriously prior to Daz's overtures. It's easy to imagine, that In their meetings, a skeptical faction got tired of wasting their developers' time (salary).


    Not to be underestimated is the MBA belief system... back then, Daz was suddenly seen as a more dangerous competitor for the software - the kind that expects to make a profit.

    And to reinforce that point - it was a dickish move for Daz to presell a beta, at the same time Poser was doing its own presale. (The kind of thing a stereotypical*** MBA loves to do, and reacts to with aggressive dickishness). ***One who has absolute faith in the teachings of the MBA courses. No offense to MBAs, but call me a skeptic, and, no, BTW: I'm not one.

    Lastly, Studio and Daz broke out of it's role. Poser was the innovative premium. Studio was merely equivalent to, or a step behind Poser on most major features. (plugins, et. al. notwithstanding). Daz had been primarily a content-maker, which didn't threaten them. That hurt their pride, as well as scare them. That isn't scary anymore, since there is a large base of hard-core Poser users.


    Afterthought - I suspect that they've been hearing directly from more users than most folks guess. Many forum-posting Poser fans would naturally fear being criticized by their friends if they publicly admitted they like Genesis.

    I've seen that happen with many other fandoms. Only folks who feel secure in their forum status, or who can shrug off critisism, or can respond to it eloquently, will talk about liking the other fan-thing.


    Acronym key for acronym-haters: BTW=by the way, TPTB=the powers that be.

    Post edited by T Jaiman on
  • Male-M3diaMale-M3dia Posts: 3,414
    edited December 1969

    ssgbryan said:
    Taozen said:
    DAZ provides content, and that's where their emphasis has been.

    Which makes it hard for me to understand why they give away the whole DS4 Pro package including the content creation tools so people can create their own content. And with Genesis even much easier than before.

    Because they didn't sell enough copies of the CCT to kickstart the ecosystem when they were charging for it. There was very little content for genesis until DAZ gave away DS4P. From the release of DS4 to the start of March Madness, there were only 300 items released for genesis - that is everything characters, clothing, bundles, everything.

    1) Still far more than other new character released.

    2) And now there's plenty of content now that we have monthly threads about not having clothes for gen4 characters. ;)

  • T JaimanT Jaiman Posts: 540
    edited September 2012

    LOL, or perhaps just a blanket warning.
    Edit: yup, somebody's getting a "This topic does not exist" from their email link.


    Changing the subject (or should I go for post count?)...

    I have a lot of sympathy for those un-Genesis folk who currently feel stuck in the PC or are just biding their time until October (Members Choice).

    I'd be a bit perturbed, right now. It has now-truthfully become a Gen4 desert for new PC & DO. You see the occasional succulent, or bit of brush...

    Post edited by T Jaiman on
  • TaozTaoz Posts: 5,755
    edited December 1969

    T Jaiman said:
    Taozen said:
    OK, I see your points.

    SM hasn't got weary of Genesis according to the latest news though, as far as I understand?

    Yeah, if our speculation is right about SM's participation. (Sorry I harp on that, but it would be a Daz move to let us build our expectations. And thread-read stats prove that a lot more people read than reply).

    I wish companies would realize that eventually they only shoot themselves in the foot by using all those dubious business tactics (not saying that DAZ is in this case, but anyway).

    Lastly, Studio and Daz broke out of it's role. Poser was the innovative premium. Studio was merely equivalent to, or a step behind Poser on most major features. (plugins, et. al. notwithstanding). Daz had been primarily a content-maker, which didn't threaten them. That hurt their pride, as well as scare them. That isn't scary anymore, since there is a large base of hard-core Poser users.

    I mainly use Poser too - mostly because I started out with it and because (maybe because I'm used to Poser) I find DS a bit confusing to work with. I'd really like to use DS more, not least because of Genesis, but I've been hearing about so many problems with 4.5 that I've been continually postponing installing it. Finally got myself together to do a test install of 4.5 / 64 today though which so far seems to work allright, so lets see how it turns out.


    Afterthought - I suspect that they've been hearing directly from more users than most folks guess. Many forum-posting Poser fans would naturally fear being criticized by their friends if they publicly admitted they like Genesis.

    Well that's the downside of being a fan(atic). :)


  • TaozTaoz Posts: 5,755
    edited December 1969

    2) And now there's plenty of content now that we have monthly threads about not having clothes for gen4 characters. ;)

    Time to start using all the stuff you've bought but haven't used yet then... ;)

  • CD_2012CD_2012 Posts: 5
    edited December 1969

    Well...it's been a while since I have been here at DAZ 3D. I waited and waited for the "new look" to the Forums, but as I see my waiting was in vain. I am no longer going to wait and hope for a better look, an inviting look to the forums. I am very disappointed in DAZ 3Ds' Web Guys. For this, I respectfully resign from the 3D experience. I wanted to delete my account, but there is no "Delete" button. All I could do was remove my CC info.

  • tsaristtsarist Posts: 1,097
    edited December 1969

    CD_2012 said:
    Well...it's been a while since I have been here at DAZ 3D. I waited and waited for the "new look" to the Forums, but as I see my waiting was in vain. I am no longer going to wait and hope for a better look, an inviting look to the forums. I am very disappointed in DAZ 3Ds' Web Guys. For this, I respectfully resign from the 3D experience. I wanted to delete my account, but there is no "Delete" button. All I could do was remove my CC info.


    Hey CD2012


    Hate to see you go. You're one of our old timers. Yeah, the site and the forum sucks, but hang in there. Maybe they will get this monstrosity fixed sooner rather than later.

  • T JaimanT Jaiman Posts: 540
    edited September 2012

    CD_2012 said:
    Well...it's been a while since I have been here at DAZ 3D. I waited and waited for the "new look" to the Forums, but as I see my waiting was in vain. I am no longer going to wait and hope for a better look, an inviting look to the forums. I am very disappointed in DAZ 3Ds' Web Guys. For this, I respectfully resign from the 3D experience. I wanted to delete my account, but there is no "Delete" button. All I could do was remove my CC info.

    Hey, come on, CD. Yeah, they had delusions of grandeur and visions of splendor, but that's Daz. They did eventually bring the forums up to minimal standards. The store is still kinda rugged... And they're still making some astonishingly slow progress.


    I'm breaking the rules by saying this, but I'll miss ya, man.

    Holy crap! There was just an on-topic post in this thread!

    Post edited by T Jaiman on
  • TaozTaoz Posts: 5,755
    edited December 1969

    If you ask me, the worst thing is not what has happened to DAZ and how they've handled it, but the negative way many people have reacted to it. If you can't deal with a thing like this in a constructive way, I wonder how you can handle real life...

  • Kendall SearsKendall Sears Posts: 2,992
    edited December 1969

    Taozen said:
    If you ask me, the worst thing is not what has happened to DAZ and how they've handled it, but the negative way many people have reacted to it. If you can't deal with a thing like this in a constructive way, I wonder how you can handle real life...

    Totally Zen. This. Too true. 100% agree.

    So much angst, anger, and negativity for what is, for most folks, a hobby.

    Kendall

  • T JaimanT Jaiman Posts: 540
    edited September 2012

    Taozen said:
    T Jaiman said:
    Yeah, if our speculation is right about SM's participation. (Sorry I harp on that, but it would be a Daz move to let us build our expectations. And thread-read stats prove that a lot more people read than reply).

    I wish companies would realize that eventually they only shoot themselves in the foot by using all those dubious business tactics (not saying that DAZ is in this case, but anyway).

    Yeah, there's all manner of by-the-book stuff that backfires on companies, even routinely...


    Yeah, this one, (if it's like 'game changing'), I've mentally filed their adherence to the tease-and-run policy, into the category of "Ok, now they're just being dense.". (Perhaps some might see me as being dense, there, I dunno). (Apologies for the brutally clumsy structure of the first sentence). They're likely to let this piece of speculation run rampant, so If they announce something completely different, the backlash will be... pretty fierce.


    I mainly use Poser too - mostly because I started out with it and because (maybe because I'm used to Poser) I find DS a bit confusing to work with.


    I've had various pieces of software feel intuitively obvious to me, and the competitors' all spectacularly baffling.

    But, for these two, it's mainly been the content management that frustrates me. (DS4 content seems more bearable,now. It's shape management that gets me spun out, now).

    I do find myself in Studio most often, partly because I hang out in the forum, and casually pick up a ton of info here. And it was the first, the free thing sucked me in, and... (I wanted to see if I could get a decent result out of it, before I laid down a pile of cash... I'd seen a lot of pathetic renders out there beyond forum walls).

    I'd really like to use DS more, not least because of Genesis, but I've been hearing about so many problems with 4.5 that I've been continually postponing installing it. Finally got myself together to do a test install of 4.5 / 64 today though which so far seems to work allright, so lets see how it turns out.

    Cool. Should be fine. Caution is reasonable, it uninstalls the previous version... if I hadn't had so many drives go downhill, I'd go back to dual boot drives, but, I've got Acronis, so...

    When I look at a new bit of software, I always shoot over to the forums, to see what I should prepare for, and I'm soon drawn to the bug reports. But as long the forumites treat 'most everyone's bug as unusual, and try to solve it, then I eventually quit angst-ing and go find out.


    Afterthought - I suspect that they've been hearing directly from more users than most folks guess. Many forum-posting Poser fans would naturally fear being criticized by their friends if they publicly admitted they like Genesis.

    Well that's the downside of being a fan(atic). :)

    Starts humming the chorus to Subdivisions. ;-)

    Man, that is not a humming tune *cough*.

    Post edited by T Jaiman on
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