Looking into new computer--advice?
Choppski
Posts: 627
Hi, I'm looking to buy a new computer just for rendering. Problem is, it has to be a laptop (don't have room for a desktop. I've been rendering on a laptop I bought back in 16 with an nvidia card that's, I think 4gb memory, and the computer only has 8gb of memory. I know I can easily get a laptop with more memory, which in itself will be a help, but I want to ensure I have a good video card also. I mostly render in 3dl now because iray takes eons and requires too much memory (even with the programs to reduce memory). My biggest issue is that I don't know where to look besides bestbuy, microcenter, Dell, etc. and I have used Dell for years and don't know any alternatives well to know what's good. Razer? Asus? Alienware? I would just go through the dell website, but a bought a computer from them for my work last fall and they shipped it fed ex with no signature and it never arrived, and what they required to get a refund was unbelievable.
In any case, if by any chance I am not the only person on the planet rendering with a laptop, I would appreciate suggestions. ANd any information about brands, places to purchase, etc, would be much appreciated.
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Comments
I hear you about workspace. It's nice to have a laptop... and you can even get external enclosures for gfx cards if you want (which plug in to your laptop), although I haven't tried it yet.
All the big manufacturers will have their plus and minus, but really they are all just factory built stuff from Asia... even MacBooks with their keyboard issues and whatnot... all the same guts for the most part. One might like to believe Apple sources their chips from nicer, kinder places, but that's not my experience. I've had more Mac laptops fail than HPs (logic board failure), and others will have the opposite experience, so it really doesn't matter that much. The factories and the parts are not all that dissimilar. I'm not sure there's much to say for brand loyalty.
I personally use HP , but mainly because I always have. The last Dell that I had died much faster than HPs that I've had. ThinkPads used to have the best keyboard experience, but I haven't purchased a Lenovo-made ThinkPad.
I don't do fancy rendering, though. It's not my job. It's just a hobby amongst many, which my above-potato-grade HP Envy is adequate for. I personally prefer AMD Ryzen GPUs over Intel, especially when on a budget, but that's just me.
Alienware is owned by Dell. I get the space problem, it is why I bought an Alienware laptop. Now wishing I had bought a good enough laptop to build the scenes on and do test renders and a mid-size tower to do the actual full rendering
Unless you're rendering at really low settings, I don't know that 3DL necessarily has all that much speed advantage any more; it's a CPU renderer, and thus cannot take advantage of the GPU - and by extension, the massive speed boosts of modern RTX technology.
Even the little kid of the current generation, the RTX 3060, is capable of churning out 4K Iray renders to a good standard in fairly short order - and a 3080 (which does exist in a 16 GB version for laptops, which can fit some very generous scenes) is twice as fast again.
I use a laptop I cant recommend many but HP has served me well and does OK rendering it is a Zbook G5 they are on G8 now I think they class it as a mobile workstation (might be PR blurb) think they top out at 5 or 6 grand maybe average 1500 for the different configurations so really depends on how much you cant to spend. Its a laptop so what you spend on one you could get a tower half the cost just as powerful but they are more handy sometimes.
A few big companies are doing stuff aimed at things like CAD and rendering now in laptop form.
I'd like to be able to DO iray more effectively, which is why I want the better video card. I realized that iray took eons because effectively, my 2gb of video card memory forced the computer to switch to cpu most of the time, and that meant 10 hours for a decent resolution. I've used 3dl because I have to (I can only get 1 person in a scene, sometimes 2 before memory is exceeded), so I have tons of stuff with the right shaders, etc., but if I can find a good laptop that allows iray I will switch.
Yeah, I've thought about getting an external enclosure for the video card. A friend on twitter mentioned that to me, but I don't even know where to begin looking for that.
Here's a decent article on external graphics card enclosures...
https://helpdeskgeek.com/reviews/everything-you-need-to-know-about-external-gpu-enclosures/
I don't have one, so I can't recommend one over another.
This lists some to look at... https://www.pcguide.com/reviews/best-egpu-enclosure/
If you are in the continental US, I would recommend CyberPowerPC. You can configure a laptop based on your needs. I've had two desktops and a laptop done through them and never had any problems.
https://www.cyberpowerpc.com/page/Nvidia/Back-to-School-Laptops/?utm_source=asc&utm_medium=fb-ig&utm_campaign=asc-fbig-nvidia&gclid=CjwKCAjw3_KIBhA2EiwAaAAliqJPuwpcFyjf-_c-LO5TCpvfO0O0IhFt2CBmp0rM7fhqMGHDCSgJbRoCpG0QAvD_BwE
For Alienware, which is Dell btw, I think you're just overpaying for a name.
You don't give a butget but based on you said it's for iRay and DAZ Studio and seeing the style and complexity of your avatar you can save yourself "overpurchasing" too much GPU and got one of these:
My favorite for your use case on a budget:
AmazonSmile: Lenovo Legion 5 15 Gaming Laptop, 15.6" FHD (1920 x 1080) Display, AMD Ryzen 7 5800H Processor, 16GB DDR4 RAM, 512GB NVMe SSD, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3050Ti, Windows 10H, 82JW0012US, Phantom Blue : Electronics
There are also these:
AmazonSmile: Acer Nitro 5 AN517-54-77KG Gaming Laptop | Intel Core i7-11800H | NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3050Ti Laptop GPU | 17.3" FHD 144Hz IPS Display | 16GB DDR4 | 1TB NVMe SSD | Killer Wi-Fi 6 | Backlit Keyboard : Everything Else
AmazonSmile: Acer Predator Helios 300 PH315-54-760S Gaming Laptop | Intel i7-11800H | NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3060 Laptop GPU | 15.6" Full HD 144Hz 3ms IPS Display | 16GB DDR4 | 512GB SSD | Killer WiFi 6 | RGB Keyboard : Electronics
It's important to note that maybe by 2022 that you'll be able to do LuxCore renders (see this thread: Iray vs LuxCore: "Heads to Heads" Blind Comparison - Daz 3D Forums). LuxCore renderer can use both Intel UHD/Iris XE integrated GPUs or AMD Radeon Vega GPUs which while not nVidia RTX in the current newest GPU generation cycle, are getting close or very close and those integrated GPUs make a good fallback for when your renders exceed 4GB. If you think you will regularly exceed 4GB in your renders then you will likely regularly exceed 6GB or 8GB in your renders and in that case you should not buy a laptop or any video card with less then the 24GB then the RTX 3090 desktop cards have.
...I rendered a scene in 3DL that was moderately complex which included a lot of reflectivity transparency and several transmaps in 3DL (using Pariss' IBL master instead of UE) along with two AoA distant lights (one at low intensity beneath the ground plane to provide "bounce light" and it rendered in about 14 min at a reasonable size with near photoreal results. This was on a first generation 4 core i7 and 12 GB of system memory using the progressive mode. I also optimised the same scene for rendering in Iray and I remember that took somewhere in the realm of 2-½ - 3 hours to complete in CPU mode.
...yeah it's sad that there are no mobile 12 GB GPUs available.
Went to Cyvberpower to check out their notbook offerings and tweaked out a Tracer V edge Pro i17ewith an 8 GB 3070
Upgrades:
32 GB GSkill Ripjaws 3200 MHz DDR4 RAM as 16 would not be enough to fully support rendering a 8GB GPU.
2 TB WD black SN750 Pro M2 SN750 PCIe NVMe SSD (you'll need it).
Cooler master MM711 16,000 dpi resolution mouse
Upgrade to W10 Pro (gies you a more control compared to the Home Edition)
I'd also suggest an external storage device if you don't have one already..
Total price 2,278$ with upgrades.
I recently got a desktop, but before that only used laptops and use Iray exclusively as soon as it was added. My laptop, which I still have and use has a 6gb 1060. I'm pretty good at optimizing so I actually rarely hit the 6gb limit, the actual bottleneck I continuously hit was the 16 gb of RAM.
So for that reason while my minimum gpu would be 6gb, my absolute minimum ram is 32gb. (obviously if you can afford to get more than a 6gb gpu, def go for it)
also unless you plan on carrying it around with you every day, don't worry about something thin/light it will just be more expensive and overheat more
I DO think my main problem is that I run out of RAM memory. My new laptop that i use for work has 16gb of ram, and I've been tempted to install DS and see how it runs. My current rendering laptop only has 8GB of Ram. But new computer also has an intel Iris XE graphic card, so I have no clue if it would be useful with rendering. I mean I know I'd have more cpu. Mostly, I want to keep that computer working well because I teach and need it to function. SO I'd like to get a computer just for rendering.
Bear in mind, on laptops the 3060 usually maxes out at only 6GB VRAM, whereas the PC RTX comes with 12GB VRAM standard. So if I were shopping for a PC prebuilt right now I'd look for a 3060 RTX system, but if I wanted a laptop, I'd definitely go with a 3080 system as Matt Castle suggested.
THank you all for the suggestions. IN truth, as Kyoto Kid indicated, I can get some good stuff done in 3dl, and more processor power will help with that. I have learned to create my own shaders and can even convert iray only shaders pretty well. My art has never been about absolute photorealism. That said, there are reasons I would like to be able to do more in iray and do it without it taking hours. I will look at some of your suggestions. It's good to hear about general satisfaction with other brands and processors.
Depending on what you expect to be rendering, I wouldn't go with anything less than 12 Gb VRAM and 64 Gb system RAM. Those two things alone are going to add quite a bit to the price. To be honest, unless you absolutely need something that must be frequently moved or transported around with you, make the space and get a proper desktop if you can. You just don't have the same flexibility with a laptop that you would have with a desktop when it comes to upgrading. I've went the laptop route once before and I regret ever having done so.
I'm not sure about the other brands, but Dell/Alienware tends to add bloatware on their systems, and their replacement parts are overpriced by 50-75%. Plus you have to deal with their proprietary nonsense.
Sager NP9672M-G1 Notebook
-11th Generation Intel Core i7-11700K Processor ( 8 Cores, 16MB Smart Cache, 3.60GHz Base / 5.00GHz Max )
-17.3" Full HD 144Hz, Wide View Angle 72% NTSC Matte Display with G-SYNC Technology (1920 x 1080)
-NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3080 GPU with 16GB GDDR6 Video Memory
-64GB Dual Channel DDR4 SDRAM at 3200MHz - 2 X 32GB(upgradeable to 128 Gb)
M.2 PCIE GEN 4X4 Slot (DEFAULT OS DRIVE)
-1TB Samsung 970 EVO Plus M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD
-Windows® 10 Pro 64-Bit Edition Preinstalled
-Intel Wi-Fi 6 AX201 M.2 AX Wireless LAN + Bluetooth Module
TOTAL: $3,824.00
This is something along the lines of what you would be looking for, but you would need additional storage for your Daz content. Also, I'm not even sure of the quality when it comes to Sager, its just an example.
for optimun performance looking at 4,294$ That includes a 500 GBd efault Boot and 2 TB NVMe SSD in slot 1 for the Daz library (again, the Daz library will easily fill that in no time I have a 2 TB drive on my desltop system and it's alreayd at 62% full and my library isn't anywhere near as large as others have) If you can afford it add a second 2TB WD black SSD at an additioal 465$.
It also includes:
64 GB of system RAM
4k QFHD display with 38490 x 2160 resolution.
Windows 10 Pro with recovery media (again goivd the user more control).
Also, a high dpi mouse or trackball (at least 16,000 dpi) would be recommended.instead of relying on the touch pad.
Notebooks are nowhere near as expandible as deskops so better to go with a higher configuration at the start.
Dell LOL... there's currently a saying among system testers and benchmarkers, Gamers Nexis Steve, Linus, etc "... but is it as bad as Dell". This is mainly due to bloatware using massive resources, garbage parts and hidden charges. The phrases "dumpster fire" and "e-waste" litters the reviews. And these are respected honest tech-people without any anti-Dell axe to grind. Do a lot of research and read a lot of reviews before you commit to buying an OEM system.
Here's a recent review.
Don't confuse CPU system RAM with GPU video RAM.
For DAZ Studio you need 16GB CPU system RAM. In that scenario I only ran out of system RAM in DAZ Studio for 2 or 3 scenes out of about 100 scenes. All involved, that I ran out of system RAM on, layered opacity cutouts, layered glass, and glass reflections - a scenario that only happens if you render complex scenes involved using more that one of sets in the same scene like StoneMason and Ansiko sets with multiple characters in the scene as well. It's not easy limit to exceed but I did a couple of times and have not as of yet exceeded 32GB system RAM.
Also, unless they've fixed it, switching back and forth between Filament and iRay in DAZ Studio WILL exceed 4GB video RAM in a card like my GeForce GTX 1650 4GB. For that reason, I've stopped using Filament.
Because I have only rendered using nVidia GeFore video cards since Jan 2020 I don't have as much experience with running of of video RAM. However, of the same 100 scenes that I've made in DAZ Studio; only 1 so far has ran out of video RAM and that was because of switching back & forth between Filament and iRay as mentioned above. You don't need as much video RAM as you need system RAM because DAZ Studio builds the scene in iRay renderer format in system RAM before it sends it to the video card to put in video RAM where it is optimized in size and compute data structures before putting it in video RAM. That process is only getting better too, not worse.
As I've been looking for an RTX laptop too, the best capable laptop I've found for $1 spent is this one. Yes, you read that right, only $839.99 and it would handle 100 out of 100 DAZ Studio scenes I've ever created if I used DAZ Studio 4.15.0.25.:
AmazonSmile: Acer Nitro 5 AN515-55-53E5 Gaming Laptop | Intel Core i5-10300H | NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3050 Laptop GPU | 15.6" FHD 144Hz IPS Display | 8GB DDR4 | 256GB NVMe SSD | Intel Wi-Fi 6 | Backlit Keyboard : Everything Else
True it's only a 4 core 8 hyperthread intel 10th Gen i5 but unless you are a serious software developer it's of no consequence to you. Even most software developers wouldn't bat an eye if they were serious about maintaining a budget but still getting the job done.
The price on this laptop has me seriously considering buying it, knowing that it's going work for what I need compared to all the other laptops costing $370 and more in cost. It would be different if the laptops costing $370 & more had all I need them to do but they still don't.
Of course your scenes may vary from the 100 or so I've created and require more than 4GB video RAM. This is the example of the scene I created that exceeded 16GB CPU system RAM that required I build a new desktop computer with 32GB RAM in order to CPU render in iRay. Can I GPU render this same scene that exceeded 16GB system RAM to CPU render in an nVidia GeForce GTX 1650 Super 4GB? Yes, I can, and at the same FHD of 1920x1080 as the CPU render too. I don't allow CPU fallbacks if my scene exceeds the size of the video card's video RAM so yes, a scene that exceeds CPU system RAM's capacity to render can be easily rendered in 4GB RAM GPU. That's because the GPU doesn't need extra RAM for extra structures to calculate some classes of calculations for pixel values that must be calculated in CPU renders because those calculation shortcuts are embedded in the design of the GPU chip. That's why the GPU rendering is so much faster than CPU rendering and why you need less RAM to GPU render than RAM to CPU render.
I've been researching the past couple of days trying to avoid blowing a couple of thousand on a new RTX capable laptop when I know that current RTX laptops, even on down to the 3050 laptops, while good for 99.9% of modern games minimum and recommended requirements; well, they are in need of a boost for nVidia Omniverse and other more complex things not related to DAZ Studio rendering, and so I don't want an expensive laptop that is "close but no cigar", but a laptop that is able to do the job and that would be those with the coming Ada Lovelace architecture. I'm not going to buy a $3500 RTX 3080 laptop that doesn't do the job, just like the RTX 3050 laptop doesn't do the job. Give me the cheaper of the two in most situations. Either will do the job for the 100 scenes I've created in DAZ Studio so far though, even the 3050 with it's paltry 4GB video RAM. The 3080 will do your renders in about 1/4th the time as the 3050 so it's about 2 minutes for the hardware reference test scene in the Commons for a 3080 laptop to render compared to about 8 minutes using a 3050 laptop. That's an easy calculation for you. How often do you render? Can you wait an extra 6 minutes to render a scene? Did you spend more than 6 minutes creating each of your scenes? How many more minutes than 6 minutes extra render time did it take you to set up your scene?
About the only scenario for me for spending more than $370 more for an RTX laptop that the more expensive RTX laptop can actually handle right now are rendering animations in Blender and other software faster. 6 minutes per frame decrease in render time per frame for example, a 4 minute animation (about 6000 frames to render and you don't have to sit there and baby sit the computer while it's doing it) is a pretty conclusive reason to buy the more expensive laptop as that is 6000 frames * 6 minutes extra per frame = an extra 36,000 minutes or extra 600 hours or extra 25 days to render a 4 minute animation scene that is comparable in complexity to the hardware performance reference test scene in the Commons.
Well, the other scenerio is you want the more expensive laptop even though you don't get anything more out of it. Despite all the performance analysis to the contrary. I might still do that too.
Just to let you know more thoroughly what you need and what you can expect from such laptops. You need to analyze the totality of all the scenes you've rendered in the past though. Also be aware that DAZ Studio has markedly improved in memory management compared to past recent versions of the past few years (to the degree that I bet the 10 year old HP 8470P Elitebook laptop with 16GB RAM that ran out of memory doing the scene that caused me to build my AMD desktop now could probably handle that same scene CPU rendering were I to use DAZ Studio 4.15.0.25 Public Beta).
It doesn't take much to run out of RAM with 32GB's, even a little puppy can do it.
https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/515096/pudgy-the-corgi-crashed-my-ds
Well, the desktop market for GPUs is a total mess right now. So while I'd normally fuss about laptop, under current conditions they are not such a bad option, and you actually can find one in stock. Plus some 3070 and 3080 laptops have more VRAM than their desktop versions, which is nuts. If we are talking Iray, on;y Nvidia GPUs can run Iray. Since you are coming from an old laptop, even new CPUs will render faster than what you currently have. But obviously GPU rendering is where it is at for Iray (and many rendering engines these days).
Hardware Unboxed reviews a number of laptops. They focus on gaming performance, but the reviews are still good for showing off the laptop itself and seeing how well it is built and runs.
Since you talk about memory, the 12GB 3060 is the best bang for buck deal you can get in laptop. The 3060 is of course slower than the bigger 3000 cards, but it would still be a massive boost for you personally. The 3060 can beat my 1080ti at Iray, so I wouldn't call it a slouch, either. But there are 6GB models of the 3060 now, so watch out for that. I think you might be limited with 6GB. But it depends on what you are doing. There are 3050 and 3050ti models, but these only have 4GB of VRAM and I am sure that would just not be enough.
As said, you can find 16GB versions of the 3070 and 3080. There are 8GB versions, too. But these are going to have a high premium, especially the 16GB models. If you can afford them, by all means get them. You will have more VRAM than most desktops do, LOL.
Do pay attention to system RAM, though. More VRAM also requires more RAM. It can vary depending on your scene, but it can be anywhere from 2 times to even 5 times as much RAM as VRAM. So with that in mind, you will want at least 32GB of RAM to make the most out of the VRAM. If you do get 16GB VRAM, I would suggest 64GB of RAM to go with it. I know, this can get expensive.
The reason for this is because Iray compresses data from RAM. The data in RAM is the uncompressed scene. Since you only have 8GB of RAM currently, every scene you have ever made would probably fit in 4GB or 6GB of VRAM easily for Iray. So that might be something to keep in mind. If you desire making larger scenes, then you may need more. This all really depends on what you do. You can also optimize scenes to get things to fit in VRAM/RAM. But this takes time, too, and eventually you can only do so much to make a scene fit. Having more VRAM/RAM is pretty much always a good thing as it gives you options.
Additionally, a new laptop with a performance GPU will also ship with a decent CPU as well. So your CPU 3DL renders will be much improved, too. You will have the option of doing both. However a good 3000 card should run circles around most 3DL rendering speeds.
The 12GB 3060 seems to be even faster than the previous generation 'King of the hill' RTX 2080 Ti
From me just a comment about that Acer with the 3060 graphics card for $1200+. Looks nice but I've gotten my hands dirty in a lot of computers and formed opinions about most of them. Acer is the one company I will never buy anything from again. Cheap, cheap, cheap. But Dell is quickly climbing on my never-again list. The old Dells were great but they dropped the ball somewhere. And Acer just never dug itself out of the hole it was born in. What? Pretentious and opinionated? Moi?
Well, Your right. They are IMO junk and not even worth the price of a toy. They use the cheapest parts they can get your hands on. I had an expensive laptop from Acer and it took a crap after 6 months. Tore it apart and the MB was fried after making one product for the store. It definitely can't handle this industry. It may be ok for the elderly who only go on to pay bills and check emails and maybe look at Facebook or some other social media outlet, but not for someone who wants to render no matter how much it cost to buy.
I've only ever seen 4GB video RAM for laptops with mobile RTX 3050 / RTX 3050TI, 6GB video RAM for mobile RTX 3060, 8 GM video RAM for RTX 3070, or 8GB video RAM for RTX 3080. I've seen a reference on a GPU comparison web site that mentioned a 16GB mobile 3080 but saw no link to an actual product that could be bought. Could you post a link to 12GB RTX 3060 laptop products so I can price them?
As far as those that claim Acer are junk they CPUs, GPUs, and other components are coming from the same fabrics as the Alienware, MSI, HP, and other brands. Truth is an nVidia GPU is an nVidia GPU. That's where Acer ordered their 3050 GPU from in that laptop. Same with the CPUs. Acer is branding and customer support and not much else; similar to how DAZ 3D is branding and customer support and not much else.
However, Acer is not the only sub-$1000 RTX 3050 / RTX 3050 TI laptop out there, Acer was the 1st I found for only $836 so I felt I should share it with you as you are looking to econimize: so if budget and ability to do the job at a affordable price are at a premium take a look on Amazon and BestBuy for 3050/3050TI laptops.
ASUS ROG Zephyrus S17 17,3" with RTX 3080 16GB, 4350 eur (VAT 24% included)
https://www.verkkokauppa.com/fi/product/62386/qvdvt/ASUS-ROG-Zephyrus-S17-17-3-kannettava-Win-10-Pro
Didn't find one with 12GB 3060, but there were plenty RTX 3080/16GB ones at another store here in Finland
I'm not reading through all the posts thoroughly so I may be repeating some of it. But I went with an Alienware years ago (DELL) and it just recently went kaput. But yes, I have read that Dell's quality is off and on again now.
I highly recommend MSI (you can see the specs in my signature and yes, it's a laptop) and both my sons have ASUS in the higher priced models as they heavily use them for business purposes. They went with desktops though. Even the reasonably priced models from ASUS are good from what I've read. The store we shop from is NewEgg and we look at Amazon at the same time. Their customer service was awesome for me when I was adding more to my Titan. So we are a MSI and ASUS family :)
Just checked back. Thanks again for all the information. Lots to process. I need to be realistic. paying 2kplus is an extravagance for me, so over 3000 is out of the question. I could possibly justify the 2200-2500 but not sure. And I know that if I have a faster cpu that would help. I am also still using ds4.10, mostly because I stopped rendering for two years and I KNOW everything works with this version. I'm also not sure what the new content manager is, so i figured I'd just wait until I get a new computer to try the latest version. I keep most of content on an external drive (with a backup). ANd I have a backup of the stuff that I keep on my hard drive as well. I have a lot to look into.
Does New Egg offer extended warranty? It didn't seem as though cyberpower pc did.
Oh, and interesting about Dell. I stayed with them because my machines have generally lasted a while. My rendering laptop is 6 years old and works fine--except for the bloatware. I thought all pcs had some version of that, but yeah, worth considering another brand.
Take a look at this site Origin Pc and try throwing together a few PC's and see what you can come up with. They are very reasonably priced for custom systems and you get to pick the exact parts that go into it. While your building it I suggest researching each part to figure out what is the best for your needs. Don't just put together the biggest system you can unaware of the specs and needs of that device. They build very good systems and they last forever. We've bought 6 desktops and 2 laptops from them and never had a single part in them go bad. We've replaced stuff, but not because it went bad, just outdated.
Edit to add: I do believe Newegg offers extended warranties for a reasonable price.
I'm going to weigh in on this one. To maximize your laptop GPU RAM vs price, I would look at previous generation "Mobile Workstations"
For example, used on ebay...
Dell Precision 7730 (17" core i9 8th gen, 64GB RAM and a Quadro P5200 16GB GPU), goes for $1500. This will get you pretty good render performance without worrying about VRAM limits.
Dell Precision 7750 (17" core i7 10th gen, 64GB RAM and a Quadro RTX 5000 16GB GPU) goes for about $2700. This will get you great render performance without worrying about VRAM