Computer upgrade question
aj1013x_8784b9f1cc
Posts: 3
I'm currently rendering on a laptop with an i5-2430M 2.4Ghz processor and 4Gb of RAM. OS is Windows 7 Ultimate 64bit, and things are pretty brutal. Takes hours to render a scene with single-light raytracing and decent render settings (using the AMR script).
I was looking at this laptop as a possible replacement, but I don't know how to evaluate the type of RAM/processor for the purposes of DAZ, other than just looking at numbers (i7 > i5, 16Gb RAM > 4Gb, etc).
I guess what I'm asking is, do I really need to worry about the stuff I keep reading about on here (like GPU rendering and RAM threads) if I want a better DAZ machine, or would the upgrade from my current machine to the one I linked to make a big enough difference that I could cut my time spent rendering down by a significant margin (like maybe half) and get better quality renders? Or are there basics of CPUs/RAM that I should be looking for that I am currently unaware of?
Thanks for any and all advice you can provide, I'm trying to figure all this out but it's like I'm reading a foreign language when I browse other peoples threads about rendering workhorses.
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Comments
RAM and CPU are very important. RAM dictates how big of a scene you can set up. CPU is for rendering speed so the bigger the better. GPU will be used for your viewport and how responsive it will be. Personally I wouldn't get any less than 8 GB of RAM. i7's are great processors.
You can use AMD or Intel CPU's for the sake of this question I'll stick to Intel:
some i5 come with 2 cores, some with 4, you need to check what the system you want comes with
i7's come with 4 cores and 4 mutithread cores (8 cores), some come with 6 cores and 6 multithread cores (12 cores)
Xeon class cpus allow two or more cpus on a single motherboard, you can have two 4 core/4 multithread cores for a total of 16 cores, or 6c/6mc for a total of 24 (across two CPU's)
if you must have a laptop you will pay more for less, you will also need something that is constantly running hot (renders can heat up CPU to 130W lightbulb heat for multiple hours inside a little plastic case with hopefully adequate cooling.)
as stated 8GB should be your low baseline for RAM, more than enough for games and facebook, but it wears thin when you start rendering larger projects.
....indeed if you are going to stick with a notebook I would suggest one of the gaming ones such as those by ASUS as they usually have are i7 based, have a dedicated Nvidia mobile GPU, enough memory, and most importantly, improved cooling as they are designed with dual fans that have intake vents in the font and exhaust ports to the sides or rear that draw fresh air over both the CPU and GPU.
The downside, they are expensive but will handle rendering better than a conventional notebook with only a single side vent port as not only low memory, but overheating can also cause a render process to crash.
If on the other hand, you are are not strictly limited to a notebook (other than by personal choice), a desktop (preferably a home or custom build) would be the best way to go as you will get more "bang" for your Zlotys (err...buck), as well as a system that will have far superior cooling than even a gaming notebook and more customisation/expansion potential. Be careful when looking at "off the shelf" systems, as most (except again the more expensive gaming systems) are not designed with 3D rendering in mind, and usually have an inadequate power supply, are often in the smallest case they can use which has only one - maybe two vent fans, as well as being bundled with a lot of useless "bloatware". Stay away from any that also say they use Intel Graphics as that is not a true dedicated GPU but a chipset on the board which shares memory with other processes.
Cool, thanks a bunch for the replies y'all, I really appreciate it.
I'm definitely going to get at least 16Gb of RAM, maybe even 32Gb if I build my own system, but I guess what I'm wondering is that since all RAM is not created equal, is there a preferred kind that works best for DAZ, or is it just a matter of cost/what the motherboard can handle?
The last time I built a computer was the year 2000 and I've heard that Intel CPUs are now better than AMD (was the opposite back then). Is this still pretty well accepted train of thought, or is that debatable?
I definitely can't afford the gaming laptops I'm looking at, but the heat thing makes a lot of sense as my current notebook seems to nearly reach a melting point during longer renders. That and my hatred of Windows 8 have me leaning towards building a tower now.
Thanks for the cautionary advice Kyoto Kid. What would be an adequate power supply for a machine used primarily for rendering? Is there a certain voltage or something that I should look for?
And finally, could I pretty much buy any year-old GPU to save money, or is there an actual benefit to having the latest and greatest for rendering in DAZ?
I'll jump in...
Go for 32GB of RAM if you can. You may think you can get by with 16GB, but your dreams may stretch it and some processes may take a lot. Get what works with you motherboard. I like Gigabyte motherboards. Crucial Ballistic memory works well for me. Get what will work with your motherboard.
An older GPU will work (I like EVGA Nvidia cards), but depending on how much it draws, you may need a bigger power supply - 500 - 750 watt and it should have the recommended power available for your video card to prevent video card glitches. Check the specs. I like Power Supply & Cooling.
AMD CPUs are still cost effective unless you have a real need for speed, then Intel is the way to go. If you're OK with a little slower the FX 8350 does very well with its 8 cores and its stock cooler is fine if you don't overclock. They can be had for around $180.
If you are really set on using a laptop, it is definitely worth the extra to get one designed for extended heavy use of the CPU and GPU. I have a 2 year old MSI GT70 and have been extremely happy with it. The MSI Gaming series laptops had a "Cooler Boost" which is an extra fan that you can turn on during rendering to keep the system cool. I've run renders using Octane (GPU) for as long as 16 hours and the GPU never got above 61°C, and CPU renders with LuxRender afor over 40 hours and the CPU never got over 68°C, which is well under their max temps.
The MSI gaming series laptops are a bit more expensive, but IMHO they are well worth it, and designed to hold up to the demands encountered with 3D Graphics (http://www.msi.com/product/nb/#?category=GT+Series&category_no=1159). Regardless, like others have already mentioned, cooling with whatever brand laptop you get is very important, and the larger gaming laptops will definitely work better (and longer) when used for 3D. I've been using laptops as my primary 3D computer for years because I really prefer/need the portability. I got my first gaming laptop for the first time about 6 years ago, and quickly realized just how much better suited it was for 3D than a standard laptop. With rather heavy use, and a lot of rendering, I used my first gamer for 4 years, and only replaced it because I really needed to get more than 4Gb of RAM. I've used my current machine for 2 years now (it has 24Gb of RAM, and an Nvidia GTX 670M with 3Gb of VRAM) and it's still going strong (though the new MSI's with 8Gb of VRAM look really tempting - if I could afford it).
Hope this helps a bit.
...my build of a couple years ago has a 750w PSU which leaves a fair amount overhead for expansion as well as not forcing it to run at peak levels. PSU's in the 750w - 850w range are not all that expensive and I see it as being a good investment to "overdo it" in this department as if the PSU blows out, it can pretty much toast your entire system. I would also suggest as good UPS to protect your investment., especially if you live in an area that has unstable power.
As to the GPU, I would suggest a minimum of 2GB, more if you can afford it as this will also affect your viewport performance. If you are looking at using an unbiased render engine for pure GPU rendering, like LuxRender or Octane (the latter which is only GPU driven) you need a lot of VRAM as your entire scene must fit in video memory or you will get poor quality results. I recently received a couple AMD HD7950s with 3GB GDD5 from a friend who upgraded his gaming rig, one of which I am considering installing in the workstation (when I get a lull in projects). Also the brand selected will somewhat depend on which direction you plan to go if you are looking at using an unbiased render engine. Octane will only work with Nvidia GPUs as it uses Nvidia's CUDA GL. For LuxRender, AMD is preferable as Lux uses OpenCL for both GPU assisted and pure GPU rendering as AMD's OpenCL driver development is ahead of Nvida's.
For the CPU if you go the i7 route I would still suggest an aftermarket CPU cooler as the one Intel provides is OK but there is better. On my system even during a heavy render job, the CPU rarely breaks the low 60s (C). I also have a large tower case that has 6 fans and a lot of "breathing space" for the internal components. My take is the cooler a system runs, the longer it will last.
For memory I agree with Keven, if you can handle it, 32 GB is the way to go especially if you go with the new DDR4 memory which is configured in quad channel mode. This will require an X99 motherboard (DDR4 is 288 pin vs. 240 pin for DDR3), which also use the LGA 2011 socket for the CPU. My system has 12GB and I have pegged memory usage at almost 11GB while rendering in 3DL on several occasions as well as receiving high memory usage warnings when submitting a render job to Lux via Reality. Currently am looking to swap that out for a full 24GB (the most my board can support). Also make sue when you get WIn7 that is it the Pro edition as Home Premium only supports up to 16 GB.
As to drives, that is up to personal preference as well as finances, SSDs are fast but lager capacity ones tend to be far more expensive (440 to 500$ or more for 1TB). If you go with a multi-drive setup (like I have), a 240GB SSD for the boot and application drive with 2TB 7,200rpm conventional HDD for your content libraries/runtimes, would be a good start until the prices for larger SSDs come down.
The bottom line if this is your fist build, make sure all the components are compatible with one another.
Right, will definitely keep that in mind.
I must be on the right track b/c I was shopping X99 motherboards before I read your post, lol.
Right now I'm looking at this motherboard, with this CPU, and this RAM.
Might do 16Gb of the DDR4 to start with and upgrade to 32 if I feel the need or when I have more money to spend. Was trying to keep my cost right around $1k, but I'm basically already there without the GPU, HDDs, or a cooling system (other than a case full of fans, anyway). Would be one hell of a machine though, much more than I anticipated on having. I think I can justify it.
Really didn't think my budget would get me this much bang for the buck. Can't imagine if I had 3 or 4 Gs to spend...
You don't need to buy the latest shiny components because they always are more expensive
You could buy a ready computer and get it under the 1K. Example http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16883156240&cm_re=pc-_-83-156-240-_-Product
...again most off the shelf systems have anemic PSUs, as well as Intel Integrated graphics, a lot of bloatware and are packaged in a small case that doesn't leave the components enough breathing space. Unless you look at a gaming rig, forget it as most prebuilds are designed for people who want to read emails, post to Facebook, and manage personal finances.
I spent about 1,400$ to build my system which at the time was petty cutting edge. You just need the time to do some research. Go for the "quick fix" and you will be disappointed in the long run.
Here's a my $0.02 on what I've used and supported in my time as a corporate tech for graphic systems, again this is all IMHO.
MSI, AlienWare (Dell), Asus: Any of these are generally good graphic/gaming systems, personally I would go with the Dell for best customer service and power, I've never dealt with MSI but heard good things, Asus makes great systems but their customer service is pitiful at best.
Toshiba, Samsung, tend to be fast but prone to breaking and HD's dying and then your screwed.
Apple: Powerful but expensive, not everything outside of DS runs well in Yosemite OS 10.10 right now but you can install Win 7,8 and 10 in either virtual (with OS X running too) or native mode (Boot right in full speed) provided you have a licensed copy.
Eurocom: insanely powerful but ridiculously expensive.
Acer: Perfect for FB and MS Office, not for graphic systems, especially not for 3D
HP: Once made great laptops, started making very crappy ones
Lemovo: see HP, better phone support though.
thoughts to consider:
Stay out of brick and mortar stores when it's time to buy, avoid the local computer guy, big box stores tend to sit on lots of hardware they can't move, they wont get new stuff until they do and the need to recoup the lost pice on depreciating hardware, they pass that cost on to you. Unless you find an amazing deal (e.g. $100's off) avoid them. The local computer shop is even worse.
You can probably find something good on Ebay, but was this something that was used as a cats bed for the better part of a year and it's a matter of weeks before the HD seizes.
Find prices on Newegg.com, TigerDirect.com and read reviews there, on Cnet.com and Tomshardware.com where you can hear from the people who use these devices. Most of the time when a (legitimate) computer periodical writes a review they were given the laptop by the company in the hopes they would get a sweet review. I worked for several such publications, computer companies sent free stuff all the time and it was not uncommon to hear about it regifted to family members, still in the original shrink wrap. There was no law saying the publication had to review something if a company sent it, no one asked for stuff back.
True, but there are a lot of downsides to that versus what I could build for another $500-600 on top of that:
4 core CPU vs 6 core CPU
Windows 8.1 (ugh) vs Windows 7 Ultimate
DDR3 1600 RAM w/ only 4 DIMM slots vs DDR4 3000+ RAM w/ 8 slots
No mention of the power supply vs knowing I have enough
Restrictive, ugly case vs hi-flow, more aesthetic case
No independent cooling vs water-cooled
Joy of opening a box vs joy of building it myself
If I bought a prepackaged tower like that I would at the very least want to swap the case, add the water cooling system, upgrade the power supply, and revert the OS to Windows 7, which would just about bring me to the same price but I'd have a worse machine.
If the latest shiny components were far out of my price range I might concede the latest tech, but frankly the $600 means very little to me. I'm a usually frugal person, so I can justify extending the budget for a tool that I use on a near-daily basis to make sure it lasts for years and can easily be upgraded once it needs to be.
It's good to be back in the world of computer modification : )
Thanks again to all who've contributed to the thread, y'all were more helpful than I could have hoped for. Glad I posted instead of just buying the laptop!
keep in mind Win7 support was dropped by MS today (BOO!!!!)
but what does that really mean?
http://www.cnet.com/news/windows-7-support-ends-today/
...there is is little advantage to purchasing Win7 Ultimate over Pro for most users unless you need different languages, will be running multiple terminals (not just displays), and/or feel the need to encrypt everything on your system. Both versions support up to 192GB of memory, support 2 CPUs, and multiple displays, and have XP Mode (if you have older software you still wish to use).
keep in mind Win7 support was dropped by MS today (BOO!!!!)
but what does that really mean?
http://www.cnet.com/news/windows-7-support-ends-today/
...of course that is only for free mainsteam support. Extended support and security updates will still continue until 2020.
The one thing that did make me a bit irate though was late last year they stopped selling Anytime Upgrade keys. So instead of being able to upgrade from 7Premium to 7Pro I now have to purchase the full OEM wipe my boot/application drive and do a full reinstall of everything. There are still upgrade keys available at sites like Amazon, but they are obscenely expensive compared to just purchasing a new OEM (400$ vs 139$ for the OEM). Currently only have Premium and need to move to Pro so I can upgrade to 24GB.
I'll deal with the annoyance of reinstalling all my apps before acquiescing to running Win8. At least all my content libraries and runtimes are on my larger data drive. Hopefully by the time full support for Win7 expires Win11 or whatever new version is out, will actually be a "real" improvement and not just a bunch of useless eye candy.
Hello!
Jumping in here, I'm a no-tech aiming to get a new laptop, and I' love a good recommendation I can show the seller in the store and ask for help. I know very little beyond easy mathematics as in 16 GB > 8 GB and more. But I'd like a recomendation when it comes to graphic cards and processor power and any more things you may need to think about.
And keep it simple, I'm not a geek and I've noticed that the sellers in the shop aren't really that either. They talk about 'gaming computers' but I wonder if that lingua is adaptive to a 3D artist as well. :-)
I've today a 3½ y old ASUS Notebook which has served me well but is getting a wee old and tired. Win 7 home premium, Ram 4kb, processor intel core 2.3 GHz etc.
Thanks in advance!
For a laptop you will need at least an Intel i7 or AMD close-to-equivalent processor (do not get an i5), and at least 16GB of RAM (I don't know of many laptops that go above that but if you find one that goes up to 32GB get it). The video card inside should have no less than 2GB of video RAM and not shared with the system. If you can get a faster hard-drive do (most laptop hard-drives are 5400 rpm). It should be a well ventilated laptop because the better components will run hotter and heat kills computers.
For comparison purposes: http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?oc=cap2800w7p103&model_id=precision-m2800-workstation&c=us&l=en&s=bsd&cs=04
All that said, a regular tower computer is still a better choice for CG work.
...while more expensive, a gaming notebook would be better as first it will have a "dedicated" graphics processor (GPU) with it's own memory. Most commercial and business notebooks use what is called "integrated" or "shared" graphics which has a very small amount of dedicated graphics memory that is augmented by sharing some of the system's regular memory to augment it. This of course can take away memory resources from other operations (like rendering). Graphics memory is important in the scene setup phase for the more you have available, the smoother moving things around in the viewport becomes (including cameras).
The second concern is cooling. Most notebooks usually have only one vent port which is usually on the left side. This serves as both intake and exhaust for the entire system. Now while working with productivity software (like word processors, accounting programmes or email) does not place a huge strain on the CPU, streaming vids, and especially. rendering does. As everything is very compact and crammed together (compared to a tower), internal heat can affect a number of the components not just the CPU. A cooling pad underneath helps a little but is still only "passive" in that it doesn't directly cool the CPU and internal components but only helps to dissipate heat from the bottom of the case.
A number of gaming notebooks address this by using a "flow through" system that has dual vents, with intakes on the bottom or front of the unit and exhaust ports in the back to draw cool air in through the chassis over the CPU and GPU. ASUS is one which offers this (I wouldn't deal with Alienware as their systems can be frightfully expensive for what you get).
CPU, definitely an i7 as it has hyperthreading giving you effectively 8 processor threads, which means faster render times (most gaming notebooks will usually have this)
For memory you want at least 16 GB (expandable to 32). I have 12 GB in my system and have seen render jobs take close to 11 GB (am upgrading to 24 GB soon).
You also should look for the biggest drive(s) you can get within your budget. For notebooks I do recommend a Solid State Drive (SSD) as it is no where near as vulnerable to jostling as a standard hard drive is (meaning less risk of a drive failure). 500GB would probably be more than sufficient for now The other advantage of an SSD is that it has a better read/write speed than a standard mechanical hard drive so start up and loading programmes will be much quicker.
If the store offers it, I would go for the Win7Pro "downgrade" unless you feel comfortable with an OS that is designed more for tablets and smartphones.
From my experience, you would need the next requisites:
1-Core i7 is a MUST, avoid AMD's 6/8/Apu Cpus, all are crap!, believe me, even 8 core AMDs are lower comparatively with low gen Core i7, sorry.
2-Go for an SSD drive for your content, specially if you are into multiple figures and a ton of textures involved.
3-16Gb Memory Ram is the normative, then you can go bigger, don't be sad if you can't afford 24-32Gb, this can be later.
4-Nvidia Quadro, some laptops have very good Quadros included, I have a 2000M on my Lenovo W520 laptop and runs perfectly
My example below justifies the expensive laptop, 7 genesis figures,1 Aiko3 figure, heavy shaded, AoA SSS shader and UberEnv2, Raytracing, etc
Of the 7.78 GB you needed when rendering the scene how much of that was DAZ studio? Normally the OS and other programs will need at least 2GB.
What a timely thread.
I am getting a big fat IRS rebate this year, and have been thinking about putting the money into a nice new MSI Gaming Laptop (from the reviews, they are one of the top two or three out there right now). I wasn't sure if it would hold up vs. the power of a PC, but it seems like people using modern gaming laptops are getting good rendering performance, so this helps me make my decision.
Daz spotted 3.74Gb for the entire scene, but the memory goes up if you use Progressive Rendering.
I did other comparative using only the figures and adding more non genesis figures, the scene states 2.63Gb but in total memory used by windows is double!
the idea is to clarify that, if you don't use so much figures or props for your scenes, you really don´t need so much memory, I have, as you can see in my previous image, 32Gb ram but I never seen all my memory going even at the half used.
Update: I bought my laptop on ebay, sometimes some guys need the money and sell your past "priced" machines very, very cheap, maybe for the urge of money or are very ignorant on how the real value are selling for less.
..Quadros really inflate the cost. if you can get a decent GTX (like a 970) you're OK. The only reason to have a very high amount of graphics memory that a professional grade GPU has (above 2 GB) is if you want to render with a GPU based unbiased render engine like Octane. If you are satisfied with using 3Delight, then there is no reason for a professional grade GPU.
Daz spotted 3.74Gb for the entire scene, but the memory goes up if you use Progressive Rendering.
I did other comparative using only the figures and adding more non genesis figures, the scene states 2.63Gb but in total memory used by windows is double!
the idea is to clarify that, if you don't use so much figures or props for your scenes, you really don´t need so much memory, I have, as you can see in my previous image, 32Gb ram but I never seen all my memory going even at the half used.
OK, thanks for the information. The memory usage fits in with experiements I have done, in particular adding a Genesis 1/2 character will add anywhere between 600-1000 MB, depending on the number of morphs you have, and the texture quality. Adding additional characters is a bit cheaper on memory, assumably there is some sharing going on, but all the same a scene with 4+ characters can easily need 3 or more GB.
This is currently an issue for me as I only have 8GB in my box, which is woefully inadequate for 3D work. I intend to buy a new computer soon (I can not simply add more memory as my motherboard can only handle 8GB max memory), but in the meantime, I use techniques to reduce memory usage. Not that important to you, as you have 32GB, but converting figures to props, after you are happy with their final pose, vastly reduces the amount of memory they need (a Genesis prop needs just 100MB or so).
In this render, which I did for Zev0 tongue control competition, there are over 30 different figures, including 3 Genesis figures, and by converting to props, and using instancing, the whole scene only needed a bit more than 1GB.
http://www.daz3d.com/forums/viewreply/755217/
Quick trivia question: how do I convert a Genesis figure into a prop? I have a scene in mind where this would be handy.
Cheers,
Alex.
Edit>Figure>Rigging>Convert Figure to Prop.
Another option is to use this script:
http://docs.daz3d.com/doku.php/public/software/dazstudio/4/referenceguide/scripting/api_reference/samples/nodes/convert_figure_to_props/start
It converts not just the figure, but any clothing they are wearing as well. I believe it ultilises the option Richard pointed out, but loops round for each figure attached to the selected figure you are converting to a prop.
Just a quick word of warning, not all i7 processors are actually quad core (which with hyperthreading turns into 8 rendering cores). Some are 2 core only, so don't be fooled by the sticker on the front of the product that boasts 'i7', you need to look into exactly what sort of i7 model number it is and how many cores it has. For laptops, if the model number as a 'Q' in the end of the name that usually means it's a quad core, but if it has a 'U' in it that would be a dual core.
More cores = faster rendering in most biased render engines (Carrara, Studio, Poser, etc), and is important. Nvidia gpu enabled cards (for laptops, look for GeForce) can be very important if you are rendering in a GPU based engine (like Octane, or something like Thea which is both CPU and GPU combined).
I'm a laptop user, don't have a tower but have a couple of laptops instead, so my advice is biased in that direction, though towers are actually more powerful/faster (I like the mobility of my laptops, and these days it seems I can get an all-in-one laptop with a lower pricetag then I can put together a tower with similar components... but a tower can be upgraded while a laptop not so much. Many times I wish I had a tower, and might eventually move to one in the future.
...I thought that was just i5s.
On the other end there are 6, 8 and even 12 core i7s, but I believe these are just available for desktop systems
Extra cores is part of the basis behind my next workstation design which will use a dual socket server MB and two 8 core Xeon CPUs. for a total of 32 processing threads.
Another vote for i7 processor, > 16GB of RAM, and a powerful GPU. Also, go for the IPS screen. The Asus G750, G751 come with IPS screens, which should be considered the "new minimum" quality screen.
Each of the above points actually applies regardless whether you're getting a laptop or a desktop.
And now for this month's pep-talk. :coolsmile:
The price of a new Asus gaming laptop meeting the specs I listed above will cost you between $2,200 and $3,500. Get used to it now and get over your sticker-shock, because that's the price to play in this artistic endeavor.
Don't cheap out on your rendering machine. Is this 3D pursuit important to you? If so, then you need to rise to the occasion.
If you can't afford it now, then work some overtime, get a second job. The US President is insisting that the economy is fabulous, so make it happen for yourself. If you can't do that, then be vicious and stop going out to eat. Cancel the cable TV, Netflix, Hulu, and Adobe Creative Cloud subscriptions so you can save more money. Even your DAZ PC+ subscription should probably be under consideration. You can sign up again next year once you have your new system up and running and get caught up on all the content you missed. Never forget that there's always a new DAZ sale around the corner.
Cable/Satellite TV is mostly over $100 per month these days, and what do you get but loads of ESPN, reality TV, and other mental poison that will make your mind atrophy and your body get fat. Even just a few software subscriptions could be running you > $1,000 per year. Cancel some of that stuff and you may be able to afford a new laptop before the current one dies.
Adopt a militant self-defensive attitude about your finances and you'll be able to afford a new system really fast.
/pep talk