Realistic dForce Clothing Settings??

OminousAutumnOminousAutumn Posts: 351

I am trying to get, for example, a figure wearing a skirt for the cloth to settle realistically while they are sitting in a chair. I have tried using the dForce setting by selecting a figure and going to Simulation Settings and clicking Simulate but results are rigged and weird. I took a screen shot of some tips for those settings from a forum on here but they do not seem to describe what I see on my software in order to tweak the parameters. I'm overwhelmed by the possibilites of what will do what and need some help to understand how I can get a skirt to properly conform to the figure and the chair they are sitting in together. I would mess with the settings but each Simulation pass takes quite a while, progress will be slow.

Is there a select set of clothing products in the Daz Store that will interact with the scene in a realistic manner without needing to use the dForce Settings? If not, can you reccomend a general guide to dForce settings? I am using Daz on a Mac, v. 4.14.0.8. For the clothing I am using https://www.daz3d.com/formal-mega-wardrobe-for-genesis-8-females I would like to avoid needing to add dForce modifiers bc that is just an extra step in the process that will likely just muddy the waters. What is the simplest way from A to B?

This is a picture of the settings guide/tips that doesnt really correspond (as far as I could tell) with my parameters, and pics of my parameters.

All help appreaciated, thank you!

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Post edited by OminousAutumn on

Comments

  • GordigGordig Posts: 4,346

    I'd recommend turning off "start from memorized pose" and instead doing an animation of the character sitting down. It could be as simple as adding keys for the pose at frame 30 (though higher frame count might provide a better simulation) and zeroing pose at frame 0.

  • felisfelis Posts: 926

    I am not really sure what you are experiencing.

    A key elements for dForce is it must not get trapped. And by that I mean that there must always be room for the dForce clothing to move. And that is a challenge with a skirt in a sitting pose as the character will often get very close or even intersect the item that it sits on. So when using dForce you shall ensure that there is a little gap between the character and the chair.

    That said, I prefer to use simulated timeline instead of single frame. Simulation takes longer but you can make adjustments along the timeline.

    For a sitting pose, I would start with the character in default pose at frame 0, and then somewhere in the middle set the sitting pose. And after the sitting pose move the chair in under the character from behind (still leaving a gap to the character) and then either last in the simulation or after close the gap if needed.

  • OminousAutumnOminousAutumn Posts: 351

    Gordig said:

    I'd recommend turning off "start from memorized pose" and instead doing an animation of the character sitting down. It could be as simple as adding keys for the pose at frame 30 (though higher frame count might provide a better simulation) and zeroing pose at frame 0.

    That sounds great but my animations wont export, always get an error at the end. I was hoping to do this for a single still frame first and then move onto animation.

  • OminousAutumnOminousAutumn Posts: 351

    felis said:

    I am not really sure what you are experiencing.

    A key elements for dForce is it must not get trapped. And by that I mean that there must always be room for the dForce clothing to move. And that is a challenge with a skirt in a sitting pose as the character will often get very close or even intersect the item that it sits on. So when using dForce you shall ensure that there is a little gap between the character and the chair.

    That said, I prefer to use simulated timeline instead of single frame. Simulation takes longer but you can make adjustments along the timeline.

    For a sitting pose, I would start with the character in default pose at frame 0, and then somewhere in the middle set the sitting pose. And after the sitting pose move the chair in under the character from behind (still leaving a gap to the character) and then either last in the simulation or after close the gap if needed.

    Hmm, ok thank you. Im not sure im experienced enough to even do that (the animation for a single frame for dForce purposes) but I will try.

  • Gordig's and felis's suggestion is a must.

    Do you use Blender at all? I'd add that another must is to use a Boolean Modifier (Difference) to carve the figure's position out of the chair so that there are no intersections. You can export/import the chair via obj and use it instead of the original chair, just for the purposes of collision calculations. If this seems hard, rest assured that it's really not.

    It's a PITA but I've also found that not trying to sim from a zeroed pose to the final pose in one step helps. The problem is that the cloth builds up velocity as it moves from its initial position towards the final position and that either makes it overshoot the final position and look unnatural, or it outright causes intersections and explodes later even though there were no intersections at the start. So sim a little, make a morph, and use that as the initial position for the next sim, where everything will start out with zero velocity again. You can, in that way, "ease" everything into position. This will really help if the character is doing something like hugging her knees to her breast while sitting. If this sounds like an ordeal, it's because it is, but O what we do for art.

    Another option, which I don't know will be attractive to you, is to forget dForce and try your hand at Marvelous Designer. Marvelous Designer will just work.

    Good luck, either way.

  • PhatmartinoPhatmartino Posts: 180

    @OminousAutumn I have the Formal Mega Wardrobe so I loaded a figure and the basic skirt to see what it was looking like... Are the attached examples generally what you're seeing?

    I did what you did, simming from memorized pose... though as needed if I use that, I'll make an adjustment to the Figure's Y Translate and Hip Y Translate in opposite directions to avoid intersections when intearacting with a prop, like this for a Skirt and Chair (though Gordig and felis' method is probably more recommendable)...

    In this instance, I got the Figure in a Pose on the Chair, then went to the Figure's Y Translate and added exactly +10 to whatever value was there, then went to the Figure's Hip Y Translate and changed it by -10. This makes the Figure's Memorized Pose start 10 higher so it comes down as it moves into the pose and avoids starting out possibly touching the Chair.

    Anyway, just curious if these were roughly the same as your results. If so, there's a few things that can be pretty easily tweaked to deal with whatever you can point out as the prob you're having... If these look different than what you're getting, maybe point out what's different or post a quick render of what you're experiencing. There's a lot of variables that can be considered without a lot of work...

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  • GordigGordig Posts: 4,346
    edited June 17

    OminousAutumn said:

    Gordig said:

    I'd recommend turning off "start from memorized pose" and instead doing an animation of the character sitting down. It could be as simple as adding keys for the pose at frame 30 (though higher frame count might provide a better simulation) and zeroing pose at frame 0.

    That sounds great but my animations wont export, always get an error at the end. I was hoping to do this for a single still frame first and then move onto animation.

    At least one of us is not understanding the other. What do you need to export? The method I suggested is for still frames; the animation just helps you get a better simulation for that still frame.

    Post edited by Gordig on
  • OminousAutumnOminousAutumn Posts: 351

    TheMysteryIsThePoint said:

    Gordig's and felis's suggestion is a must.

    Do you use Blender at all? I'd add that another must is to use a Boolean Modifier (Difference) to carve the figure's position out of the chair so that there are no intersections. You can export/import the chair via obj and use it instead of the original chair, just for the purposes of collision calculations. If this seems hard, rest assured that it's really not.

    It's a PITA but I've also found that not trying to sim from a zeroed pose to the final pose in one step helps. The problem is that the cloth builds up velocity as it moves from its initial position towards the final position and that either makes it overshoot the final position and look unnatural, or it outright causes intersections and explodes later even though there were no intersections at the start. So sim a little, make a morph, and use that as the initial position for the next sim, where everything will start out with zero velocity again. You can, in that way, "ease" everything into position. This will really help if the character is doing something like hugging her knees to her breast while sitting. If this sounds like an ordeal, it's because it is, but O what we do for art.

    Another option, which I don't know will be attractive to you, is to forget dForce and try your hand at Marvelous Designer. Marvelous Designer will just work.

    Good luck, either way.

    I really appreciate all this but its all over my head. I have no idea what to do. Thank you for trying.

  • OminousAutumnOminousAutumn Posts: 351

    Phatmartino said:

    @OminousAutumn I have the Formal Mega Wardrobe so I loaded a figure and the basic skirt to see what it was looking like... Are the attached examples generally what you're seeing?

    I did what you did, simming from memorized pose... though as needed if I use that, I'll make an adjustment to the Figure's Y Translate and Hip Y Translate in opposite directions to avoid intersections when intearacting with a prop, like this for a Skirt and Chair (though Gordig and felis' method is probably more recommendable)...

    In this instance, I got the Figure in a Pose on the Chair, then went to the Figure's Y Translate and added exactly +10 to whatever value was there, then went to the Figure's Hip Y Translate and changed it by -10. This makes the Figure's Memorized Pose start 10 higher so it comes down as it moves into the pose and avoids starting out possibly touching the Chair.

    Anyway, just curious if these were roughly the same as your results. If so, there's a few things that can be pretty easily tweaked to deal with whatever you can point out as the prob you're having... If these look different than what you're getting, maybe point out what's different or post a quick render of what you're experiencing. There's a lot of variables that can be considered without a lot of work...

    Im afraid not. I wish my results were half as good as yours. Sadly I dont know what im doing so most of what you suggest is going right over my head. I need simple steps spelled out bc I just dont know how to make sense of these suggestions. I do really appreciate you trying to help though. I need it all dumbed down even more but its prolly as dumbed down as it gets. I think im just SOL until I learn more but ive been at this for 5 years so it might be time to give up. Thank you again for responding! 

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  • OminousAutumnOminousAutumn Posts: 351

    Gordig said:

    OminousAutumn said:

    Gordig said:

    I'd recommend turning off "start from memorized pose" and instead doing an animation of the character sitting down. It could be as simple as adding keys for the pose at frame 30 (though higher frame count might provide a better simulation) and zeroing pose at frame 0.

    That sounds great but my animations wont export, always get an error at the end. I was hoping to do this for a single still frame first and then move onto animation.

    At least one of us is not understanding the other. What do you need to export? The method I suggested is for still frames; the animation just helps you get a better simulation for that still frame.

    Right. I did understand that. I just thought I would throw in there that when I DO try to do an animation it just gives me an error. That said, I dont understand how to do one still image from an animation. But thats all moot bc I cant picture how your instructions work. Idk what I need at frame 1 vs 30 and how to achieve it. Im a total noob even though Ive been doing this for years, just trying to get into more complex stuff like this and its just all over my head sadly. Ugh. Thank you anyhow I do appreciate you taking the time. 

  • OminousAutumnOminousAutumn Posts: 351

    Phatmartino said:

    @OminousAutumn I have the Formal Mega Wardrobe so I loaded a figure and the basic skirt to see what it was looking like... Are the attached examples generally what you're seeing?

    I did what you did, simming from memorized pose... though as needed if I use that, I'll make an adjustment to the Figure's Y Translate and Hip Y Translate in opposite directions to avoid intersections when intearacting with a prop, like this for a Skirt and Chair (though Gordig and felis' method is probably more recommendable)...

    In this instance, I got the Figure in a Pose on the Chair, then went to the Figure's Y Translate and added exactly +10 to whatever value was there, then went to the Figure's Hip Y Translate and changed it by -10. This makes the Figure's Memorized Pose start 10 higher so it comes down as it moves into the pose and avoids starting out possibly touching the Chair.

    Anyway, just curious if these were roughly the same as your results. If so, there's a few things that can be pretty easily tweaked to deal with whatever you can point out as the prob you're having... If these look different than what you're getting, maybe point out what's different or post a quick render of what you're experiencing. There's a lot of variables that can be considered without a lot of work...

    I did what you said but I dont think it changed my results at all. It just looks like it did before making those changes. I know Im just not doing it correctly. 

  • fred9803fred9803 Posts: 1,356

    Sometimes clothing comes with dForce settings that are too rigid. I'd remove them (Remove dForce modifier) and add dForce modifier in the simulation settinge pane. Stop the simulation when it looks right.

  • PhatmartinoPhatmartino Posts: 180
    edited June 18

    OminousAutumn said:

    I did what you said but I dont think it changed my results at all. It just looks like it did before making those changes. I know Im just not doing it correctly. 

    Ah, pictures worth thousands, words, etc... This is not your fault at all!! Don't be too hard on yourself and don't give up! 

     

    Most likely the problem is entirely these particular garments being used together... which is silly as they're two of the main components of this set that are supposedly meant to go together. The Skirt has a Dforce Modifier, the Shirt does not. That's not the end of the world, but I'm guessing based on your last pic that you were intending on having the Shirt tucked into the Skirt...

     

    It looks in your screen, based on the diameter of the Waist/Hip of the Skirt, like you must have done exactly what any sane person would do and with the Skirt selected in the Scene Tab, went to the Parameters Tab and under Formal Mega Wardrobe > Actor > altered Adjust-Abdomen, maybe Adjust-All, maybe even more to try and make the Shirt appear to be entirely inside the Skirt... If so, I'm not sure if you had any more success than I did, but especially while already Posed to be sitting down, I couldn't get the Shirt even close to being entirely inside the Skirt...

     

    One of the more important things to try and recognize when using Dforce is that before hitting Simulate, you generally have to make sure any Dforce Item that's going to be "draping" (has a Dforce Modifier that's going to simulate) isn't "Intersecting" with anything else. Not another article of Clothing, or a Prop, or even the Figure itself. "Intersection" just meaning one Object's Mesh breaking the plane of another Objects Mesh, like this:

     


    ^^ This is blatant, massive Intersection. If things looked even remotely like this before hitting Simulate, that's probably entirely the problem.

     

    A quick test could be (if you haven't already), try hiding the Shirt (and if the Pink that's visible is Underwear, hide that too). Try Simulating and see if the Skirt does anywhere near as poorly as before.

     

    If so, there may be a few things to look at, if not then you know the problem is just that those Garments weren't designed well enough to Dforce Sim a sitting position at the minimum. You'll notice in the renders I attached, I basically cheated and used a Top that doesn't come anywhere near the Skirt, and didn't use Underwear (I never would unless they were going to be seen for some reason, because they're just another mesh you have to worry about possibly compounding this kind of problem).

     

    Let us know the results of that test if you're able... Beyond that, it's mainly playing with Sliders in Paramaters Tab > Selected Garment > Actor > to try and fix "Intersections" (which include the most minute "Pokethroughs").

     

    Also, mention whether you're familiar with Mesh Smoothing and looking at it's related Settings under Parameters Tab > Selected Garment > General > Mesh Smoothing >

     

    It's completely ok if you're not familiar with that or any of the above, just say so and I'll be happy to lay out whatever's necessary in as crystal clear steps as I can, which I usually do anyway when I try to help someone here, as hopefully anyone else of any level will be able to follow in the future...

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    Post edited by Phatmartino on
  • OminousAutumnOminousAutumn Posts: 351

    fred9803 said:

    Sometimes clothing comes with dForce settings that are too rigid. I'd remove them (Remove dForce modifier) and add dForce modifier in the simulation settinge pane. Stop the simulation when it looks right.

    For some reason everytime I try to start a simulation, Daz quits out on me. This just started happening and I don't know what variable changed to make this happen. Not sure what to do. I watched a few youtube videos and I did infact add a dForce modifier to the skirt but of course now I can't see the result bc it keeps shutting down. Ugh. Thank you for replying.

  • OminousAutumnOminousAutumn Posts: 351

    Phatmartino said:

    OminousAutumn said:

    I did what you said but I dont think it changed my results at all. It just looks like it did before making those changes. I know Im just not doing it correctly. 

    Ah, pictures worth thousands, words, etc... This is not your fault at all!! Don't be too hard on yourself and don't give up! 

     

    Most likely the problem is entirely these particular garments being used together... which is silly as they're two of the main components of this set that are supposedly meant to go together. The Skirt has a Dforce Modifier, the Shirt does not. That's not the end of the world, but I'm guessing based on your last pic that you were intending on having the Shirt tucked into the Skirt...

     

    It looks in your screen, based on the diameter of the Waist/Hip of the Skirt, like you must have done exactly what any sane person would do and with the Skirt selected in the Scene Tab, went to the Parameters Tab and under Formal Mega Wardrobe > Actor > altered Adjust-Abdomen, maybe Adjust-All, maybe even more to try and make the Shirt appear to be entirely inside the Skirt... If so, I'm not sure if you had any more success than I did, but especially while already Posed to be sitting down, I couldn't get the Shirt even close to being entirely inside the Skirt...

     

    One of the more important things to try and recognize when using Dforce is that before hitting Simulate, you generally have to make sure any Dforce Item that's going to be "draping" (has a Dforce Modifier that's going to simulate) isn't "Intersecting" with anything else. Not another article of Clothing, or a Prop, or even the Figure itself. "Intersection" just meaning one Object's Mesh breaking the plane of another Objects Mesh, like this:

     


    ^^ This is blatant, massive Intersection. If things looked even remotely like this before hitting Simulate, that's probably entirely the problem.

     

    A quick test could be (if you haven't already), try hiding the Shirt (and if the Pink that's visible is Underwear, hide that too). Try Simulating and see if the Skirt does anywhere near as poorly as before.

     

    If so, there may be a few things to look at, if not then you know the problem is just that those Garments weren't designed well enough to Dforce Sim a sitting position at the minimum. You'll notice in the renders I attached, I basically cheated and used a Top that doesn't come anywhere near the Skirt, and didn't use Underwear (I never would unless they were going to be seen for some reason, because they're just another mesh you have to worry about possibly compounding this kind of problem).

     

    Let us know the results of that test if you're able... Beyond that, it's mainly playing with Sliders in Paramaters Tab > Selected Garment > Actor > to try and fix "Intersections" (which include the most minute "Pokethroughs").

     

    Also, mention whether you're familiar with Mesh Smoothing and looking at it's related Settings under Parameters Tab > Selected Garment > General > Mesh Smoothing >

     

    It's completely ok if you're not familiar with that or any of the above, just say so and I'll be happy to lay out whatever's necessary in as crystal clear steps as I can, which I usually do anyway when I try to help someone here, as hopefully anyone else of any level will be able to follow in the future...

    I am really humbled by your explanation and the time you're taking to help. I sorta am starting to get my head wrapped aroung this. I was going to try just simulating the skirt, turning the underwear and blouse off so it only needed to simulate one item, leaving some space between the skirt and the chair. Sadly however, for some reason I can no longer simulate. When I click on it, it does dome loading etc but then just quits me out of Daz all together. I have tried it about 4-5 times now and same result, Daz just shuts down. So this is a whole new problem I didn't really need but looks like experimenting with different settings and learning this are totally out of the question. I am not sure what variable in all this would suddenly cause it not to work when it would at least complete a render before without closing out. So no idea what to do now. Unless this is a common problem that you may know a solution for, I want to thank you again for all the suggestions, time and help you are offering. But for now its all on hold.

    Side note. I erased my computer a while back to clean it out and uploaded the latest Mac OS, this was a few months ago when the latest OS was released I think. Back then Daz wouldn't work with the latest OS. I when through the pain of reinstalling Catalina so that I could use Daz. Now I am wondering if Catalina is now somehow the issue? What a mess....

  • Catherine3678abCatherine3678ab Posts: 4,128

    OminousAutumn said:

    Gordig said:

    OminousAutumn said:

    Gordig said:

    I'd recommend turning off "start from memorized pose" and instead doing an animation of the character sitting down. It could be as simple as adding keys for the pose at frame 30 (though higher frame count might provide a better simulation) and zeroing pose at frame 0.

    That sounds great but my animations wont export, always get an error at the end. I was hoping to do this for a single still frame first and then move onto animation.

    At least one of us is not understanding the other. What do you need to export? The method I suggested is for still frames; the animation just helps you get a better simulation for that still frame.

    Right. I did understand that. I just thought I would throw in there that when I DO try to do an animation it just gives me an error. That said, I dont understand how to do one still image from an animation. But thats all moot bc I cant picture how your instructions work. Idk what I need at frame 1 vs 30 and how to achieve it. Im a total noob even though Ive been doing this for years, just trying to get into more complex stuff like this and its just all over my head sadly. Ugh. Thank you anyhow I do appreciate you taking the time. 

    For any animation [all whatever is on the timeline], you can move the place line to any area along the timeline - to the frame you would like to render as a still. Then in the render settings select the options to render the still.

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