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I doubt there is any regular user of Carrara who hasn't created a library of Carrara shaders to use for textures. I have a huge library myself, and like to tinker with textures all the time, in fact I have many entire characters, hair, clothing, etc all grouped together and saved in Carrara's object folders ready to be loaded and used at a moment's notice.
Your point is right on, that if someone wants to use Carrara seriously then there almost certainly is an initial investment of time changing the textures/shaders. The follow up though is that once that initial time is spent and done, as long as it's saved saved in the library, the work can be reused again and again extremely quickly. So time spent now, time savings in future uses, etc, and that's a tradeoff that may be very worthwhile in the long run, or alternately maybe will scare folks off from ever trying Carrara.
(Just a side note, the texture room in Carrara can do texture overlays innately., it's one of the operator functions that can be selected in the pull down)
I guess I wouldn't mind if Daz were to create an option to change the look of the interface to look like Studio, as long as the default Carrara interface remained an option too. I'm with you Cbird in that I really prefer the Carrara interface as is (though it could be tweaked by allowing bigger font sizes etc) and I'm pretty much allergic to the Studio interface, but if Daz figured out some way to allow more than one option for the interface to make it friendlier to Studio users, no biggie to me, and might even be a smart idea. If it's an all or nothing and they throw away the standard Carrara interface and force a replacement that looks like Studio, then I'm 4 square against that.
...however, the LIE which is what many of the overlay utilities In Daz Studio use, only works in Daz Studio. I would have to create my own overlay in a 2D application. Not about to spend hour upon hour dotting freckles on a skin map when I can do the same with just a couple clicks in Daz Studio using Zev0's Skin Overlay utility.
With ver. 6.1, I had few if any shader issues, like I am experiencing now, after transferring figures (and even whole scene subsets) from Daz to Carrara. Now it seems all but impossible.
Sorry, didn't mean to imply that Carrara could use LIE, which is a plugin for Studio after all, and it certainly wouldn't be expected to work in Carrara. I am very surprised though that the Skin Overlay product doesn't come with the accompanying texture files, which could still be used. I don't have that product, but the description mentions 112 overlay textures. Maybe I would have to purchase the merchant resource version of the product to get access to the textures though? Looks like a good product, might have to pick it up and give it a whirl.
But you are certainly right that LIE plugin doesn't work natively with Carrara, at least as far as I know :)
I use Skin Overlay and Builder in blender so it definitely can be done anywhere. Its definitely more manual; the nice scripts won't work, and wouldn't work in Carrara either. However all the textures are there, and can be added manually.
...yes, but do you have the Merchant Resource version? Big difference.
Nope, I have the standard DAZstudio versions.
If you check, all the images should be in \Runtime\Textures\DSZV wherever you have your files installed.
same
bought the merchant resource and returned it buying the standard DAZ studio version instead
as it was psd files the needed photoshop and I could not use it
the DAZ one I can put the maps in layers or use add mix etc operators in carrara shader room the same as LIE in DAZ
thanks Wendy and Kamion99, wasn't sure which version to pick up but that helped steer me, looks like great product, can't wait to take for a spin in Carrara to give my characters a little more 'character' :) Shame that I don't see a skin builder for V4/M4, was really thinking it would fun to give V4 some tan lines...
...so how do you do it without the scripts and make sure the settings are what you want? The are controls in the plugin's UI for to adjust how much or how little of the effect's are applied.
I'd have to fiddle with it a bit to see, but I know I can control the percentage of overlay in the texture room, should just be a matter of increasing, decreasing the percentage of the overlaying texture. That's off the top of my head, and I haven't yet played around a bit. Since you mentioned you're already using this in Carrara Wendy, maybe you could give a tip to steer me in the right direction? I can see using an add operator, or even a multichannel mixer.
6.1? No wonder you don't like the shader system. LOL. 6.2 was when it became possible to use entire shader sets for a multiple material zone figure. 7.2 is when Carrara started using relative addressing that included Runtime paths. 6.1 also had a bug where Carrara had to load each texture set for each shader instead of the 6.2+ method of loading each texture once and referencing it in the other shaders.
8.5 with Fenric's shader Plug-in let's you make mass changes to multiple zones at once.
LIE generates a .png file in DS's temp folder that can be copied and pasted to any known /Runtime/Textures folder or sub-folder. Change the Surface setting to use the copy instead of the temp version and save as Material Preset. IF your version of Carrara can use DS material presets than this should take care of the LIE problem.
Overall Carrara is a bit different to use than DAZ Studio, but got more options in the end. The scene set-up I find very much easier in DAZ Studio, but perhaps I am just more used to that. As for rendering times, I can pretty much get the DAZ Studio rendering times very low with scripted rendering - and that includes indirect lighting.
The one thing that I would really like to see in Carrara is faster loading times for DAZ Studio content. When I load a DAZ Studio scene in Carrara this results easily in an extended coffee break. I know that e.g. loading a 2nd G2F is quicker, but the loading times are bad in my view.
...I frequently get an "unable to load scene" error.
Yeah for ll it's flaws (and the fact it was only 32 bit) 6.1 actually played pretty well with Daz ,Studio.
I still use the latest version of Carrara, but primarily for modelling (much more stable than Hexagon and it's 64 bit instead of 32 which allows me to work on larger and more complex meshes). It may not have the full toolbox that Hexagon has but that's a fair tradeoff for less "aggravation factor" of having Hexagon freeze up and crash every ten to fifteen minutes. I also use Carrara for terrain/environment generation (rendered for use as backdrops), and logo creation.
It is just that I spent a lot of time (and I mean a lot) developing the characters for my story in Daz Studio with the expectation they would still work when imported into Carrara as before. Not about to toss all that away to rebuild them from scratch again.
My input as a returned Daz Studio user who just bought Carrara 8.5 Pro...
I'm going to talk less "A vs B", more 'who will find which more suitable for their needs', and 'what to expect if you are already warmed to Daz Studio.
Stick to Daz Studio if...
- you just want to render nice looking still images of dolls in small to medium size scenes
- you don't care about dynamic hair or particle physics
- you are happy with Daz Studio's scattered animation and rendering options
- if you find Daz Studio is disorienting enough, make up their own version of English language, slow in progress, unnecessarily complicate simple concepts, or need to play catch up with UI streamlining, stay (you haven't seen nothin' yet)
Venture into Carrara zone if...
- you want to make animation movies of game engine quality *from scratch* (using mostly custom content)
- you're feeling heroic, or has pioneering spirit; the type that will pick up windows 8 phone or download beta releases
- you NEED to create large outdoor or indoor scenes with many actors, buildings, vehicles, trees and repeat objects
- you appreciate a tool that does almost everything in the modelling animation rendering pipeline
- you are willing to pay for and learn Octane plugin workflow to get high speed 2014 gen rendering result
- you speak Poser, a strange and highly involved 3D dialect
- you enjoy squinting and clicking through tiny little context menus and 1998 style parameter panes
- you have no attachment to Daz Studio shaders (I don't, I've accepted my renderer of choice will always dictate shader options)
- you have no attachment to Daz Studio content or workflow (I have spent ample time learning Daz3d history and Daz3d English, and liking the latest 4.7 UI/GUI improvement, but I'm also a game modder and a 3D modeller and more adventurous than most)
- you have a thing for nice large outdoor scenes with fog and mist and god rays (I do)
- you like playing with procedural trees and leaves and waves and animated nature (I do)
- you have no attachment to Daz store purchases that won't work in Carrara (affordability is subjective even for pro indie artists)
- you are a rare navigation linguistic genius who frequently jumps between pro to novice 3D softwares
Carrara navigation is even less universal and far more newcomer brain-scrambling than Zbrush the famous navigation sadist that frustrate even seasoned 3D pros. No, not the content libraries, I mean the crazy cameras and gizmos. OMG how does one move around in that space, hotkey or not. And I say this as a former user of Max, Iclone, multiple AAA studio level editors, odd balls like Milkshape and Argile, multiple pro audio middleware advanced pro user, and an avid Zbrush modeller.
Carrara has won the most un-universal entry experience award. Still, I'm going to persevere some more with Carrara. Then I'll make some suggestions that will hopefully bring more users to this space...
...I'll amend the Stick With Daz Studio side:
...if you are on a tight budget financially or time wise (or both)
...if animation is not a concern and creating single scenes for your enjoyment and/or relaxation is more your thing.
...If you are not into modelling or don't have the time to devote to it (although DreamLight does have a plugin/tutorial for modelling with Daz primitives that includes additional basic shapes and tools to work with them).
...If you like ease of operation.
...If you have been a longtime user of Daz Studio, have an established workflow with it that is efficient, and are satisfied with what it does.
...If you already have a large stable of custom character presets complete with custom morphs and maps.
...If you wish to revisit older Daz scene files and update them.
...If you like being able to aim lights while looking though them.
...if you like having up to date documentation to refer to.
...if you want to use a third party render engine like LuxRender or the free standalone version of 3DL while budget is a concern.¹
...if you are, or don't mind being resourceful with your content (eg. kitbashing, using the surfaces tab, the LIE, the shader builder etc.).
...If you also have and use Bryce and/or Hexagon.
¹ besides the initial cost, Octane also requires upgrading/swapping to a GPU that uses CUDA GL language (Nvidia) and has a large amount of VRAM as the entire scene must fit and be rendered in video memory. ATI GPUs with OpenCL are not supported.
The second option for Mesh Lights, Anything Glows works quite well for Mesh Lights. (The one limitation is it is for an entire object, not for individual material zones or parts of objects.)
The third option is Carrara does offer, as standard, several Mesh Lights. (Shape Lights.) Carrara 8.5 allows you to get a visible representation of these lights in the assembly room that shows you both size and shape.
The fourth option is plugging in an IES profile for lights.
I tend to use a combination of those plus AO in Carrara for fast and almost real renders.
In most cases you don't need full GI with Carrara, but it is there, and the combination of IES lights, and GI will give you everything you need to do full Architecture Pre-Viz to show a client near real renders.
Wow more gems and diamonds. Keep picking up goodies in the forum trails of Spooky. Thanks... and More! More! :)
as I own 8.5
I get pimples using this
Also, while none of the Howie Fawkes scenes can be used in DS they also can't be used correctly with Carrara 8.5 and the Octane Render plugin because C8.5 handles the trees differently than C8. Adjusting the lighting in the Carrara OR plugin does not give a spontaneous update in the plugin viewport as it does in the OcDS plugin viewport. Also, DS now has iRAY too so that completely trumps Carrara or any other 3D app at the lower end of the price range. But it shouldn't be a competition because the more choice we have the better!
I don't agree that Carrara is necessarily better for animation because there is the Carrara interface to get past before anything meaningful can be done. Not to mention the problems with using certain DS content. DS with the Aniblock plugins makes the whole process of animating so much easier and with a bit of perseverance it's possible to really fine tune results. There are a lot of unexplored parameters for fine tuning animation in DS that many people don't explore but should as this significantly improves the look and feel of an animation.
DS has some very powerful features but because it is geared towards instant results many people don't delve deeper. Although I agree that a lot more could be achieved if DAZ introduced better dynamic cloth handling and other features we have been asking for.
Also, while none of the Howie Fawkes scenes can be used in DS they also can't be used correctly with Carrara 8.5 and the Octane Render plugin because C8.5 handles the trees differently than C8. Adjusting the lighting in the Carrara OR plugin does not give a spontaneous update in the plugin viewport as it does in the OcDS plugin viewport. Also, DS now has iRAY too so that completely trumps Carrara or any other 3D app at the lower end of the price range. But it shouldn't be a competition because the more choice we have the better!
I don't agree that Carrara is necessarily better for animation because there is the Carrara interface to get past before anything meaningful can be done. Not to mention the problems with using certain DS content. DS with the Aniblock plugins makes the whole process of animating so much easier and with a bit of perseverance it's possible to really fine tune results. There are a lot of unexplored parameters for fine tuning animation in DS that many people don't explore but should as this significantly improves the look and feel of an animation.
DS has some very powerful features but because it is geared towards instant results many people don't delve deeper. Although I agree that a lot more could be achieved if DAZ introduced better dynamic cloth handling and other features we have been asking for.On the other side of the coin, Carrara does also have an Animate Plug-in. :)
Adding keymate and graphmate to DS, makes animation tools relatively equal.
Adding keymate and graphmate to DS, makes animation tools relatively equal.
That's true but I am responding to the claims that DS is poor at animation compared to Carrara. Carrara does have some great animation features but then so does DAZ. Good animations have a lot to do with editing rather than instant results which the Aniblocks system appears to encourage.
...and you need to be very patient about render times. Currently rendering just a five frame sequence for Motion Blur and now at 71% complete after 15h 45m (Daz 4.8.0.9).
The speed of unbiased renders is primarily going to depend on what and how many GPU's are part of the computer system. I think both NVidia and OTOY will be introducing Cloud rendering so at a price this limitation will eventually become less of an obstacle. One animation I made using DS and the OcDS plugin took 60hrs! I eventually learned how to balance resolution with image size to get the most out of rendering animations.
Unlike still images, animation is a lot more forgiving so it's not always necessary to use high resolution and HD sizes on composite animations to achieve great results. I highly recommend compositing animation because in many cases there are parts of the image that change very little so there's no point in repeatedly rendering it in every frame. The time saved by just switching off unneeded content or rendering it out separately can be significant. Techniques such as rendering only parts of the background that change saves a lot of time and resources. It's much easier now days to composite an animation in an NLE/compositer such as AE/Hitfilm and maintain realism. Even adding motion blur and other FX.
Trying to render the whole image at once is a common mistake that people new to animation often make.
...the work I mentioned above was in 3DL not Iray, Lux, or Octane. So even with Daz's "standard" biased render engine, it still takes a long long time.
As both the background and wheels of the motorcycle needed motion blur, and I was using an HDRI set it had to be rendered in a single pass or the lighting, reflections, and shadows would not have looked right.
Finally finished at 16h 32m.
Having used both the Carrara OR plugin and the OcDS plugin they pretty much render at the same speed so I imagine DS iRAY will render much faster than Carrara without the OR plugin. That's a significant DS advantage not to mention the improved realism that iRAY offers. I hope that Carrara gets its own free unbiased renderer soon.
Update / Edit:
I just spotted that this is an old thread that was dug up again.
Nevertheless I guess it is just fair to have the updated information available as well:
TRUE:
- textures can be put in out of core memory aka RAM since OctaneRender Version 2.21 and the render speed loss by doing so is insignificant relative to the overall speed gain you get by using Octane
- out of core geometry support was officially announced with OctaneRender 3 at GTC 2015
- support for ATI GPU is as well announed for OR3
- in theory with OpenCL you can as well run Octane on CPU with OR3
- various functions like resizing textures with the click of a button for VRAM management were available in the OctaneRender plugin for DS since version 1.2x
- currently 4GB+ VRAM is only needed when you have geometries with a extremely high vertice count like characters with large amounts of Zbrush fiber mesh hair. You will not find content with extremely high vertice or polygon count sold at the DAZ store so this should not matter for casual DAZ Studio users.
- with a little bit of effort you can fit most standard DAZ Studio scenes into 2-3 GB VRAM since OR version 1.
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please compare:
OTOY Presentation at NVIDIA GPU Technology Conference 2015
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHKmqWwEGxQ
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