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Problem Areas for Photorealism

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  • fastbike1fastbike1 Posts: 4,078

    Here's an opinion from a photographer with 40+ years of experience. Take it as you will.

    To me, the biggest technical problem with photorealistic renders is that most people are absolutely clueless about lighting.

    The second biggest problem is frankly most users aren't careful enough or skillful enough with their scenes to make them believable. Most are obvious renders because of the setting. You can't ignore gravity and the way bodies move, much less hair, and expect people to think it's a photo.

    Photorealistic isn't a very good term. You can make a dragon look realistic but your mind knows it can't be. Same with a T-Rex. 

  • fastbike1fastbike1 Posts: 4,078

    Here's an opinion from a photographer with 40+ years of experience. Take it as you will.

    To me, the biggest technical problem with photorealistic renders is that most people are absolutely clueless about lighting.

    The second biggest problem is frankly most users aren't careful enough or skillful enough with their scenes to make them believable. Most are obvious renders because of the setting. You can't ignore gravity and the way bodies move, much less hair, and expect people to think it's a photo.

    Photorealistic isn't a very good term. You can make a dragon look realistic but your mind knows it can't be. Same with a T-Rex. 

  • MelissaGTMelissaGT Posts: 2,611
    wmiller314 said:

    As a woman, one of the biggest barriers to photorealism is the breasts. Seriously, the guys creating the 3d models need to realize not all girls are a D cup! LOL. As a member of the itty-bitty-titty-commity, I'd like to see some models with regular A or B cups. Also, breasts are not always perfectly round. They aren't balloons for cryng out loud. But also better hair and teeth would go a long way. 

    And that they are subject to the laws of physics...

  • MelissaGTMelissaGT Posts: 2,611
    j cade said:
    NylonGirl said:

    But do you really think somebody would cite large breasts on a woman, or lack of breasts on a man, as proof that a picture is computer generated?

     

    Depends. Are they there floating despite the figure clearly being braless? That is absolutely something I will clock. (Also if it's video breast physics are usually a clear giveaway -becuse most of the time they'd look more real with nothing. Rather than the floppy weightless jello that a lot of artists seem to go for)

    OMG YES! It's probably TMI, but I do modding for video games (primarily Skyrim) and the amount of people needing to have jello jigglies in their game is astounting. Like guys...they don't bounce like that just from breathing. K? Kthanx. 

  • nonesuch00nonesuch00 Posts: 18,723

    My biggest problem is I render far too focused.

  • GordigGordig Posts: 10,600
    edited October 2020
    PerttiA said:
    wmiller314 said:

    As a woman, one of the biggest barriers to photorealism is the breasts. Seriously, the guys creating the 3d models need to realize not all girls are a D cup! LOL. As a member of the itty-bitty-titty-commity, I'd like to see some models with regular A or B cups. Also, breasts are not always perfectly round. They aren't balloons for cryng out loud. But also better hair and teeth would go a long way. 

    When trying to say the same in previous threads, most of the comments from both (assumed) genders have practically been claiming the opposite

    No, here is what you actually said:

    Larger appendages may be nice to look at, but when you are telling a story of a spinster that has her hair tight in a bun and collar buttoned up to her chin, where's the credibility of the character if she has mammoth mammaries?

    That is not, by any stretch of the imagination, the same thing as stating that not all women have large breasts.

    Post edited by Gordig on
  • j cadej cade Posts: 2,310
    edited October 2020
    melissastjames said:
    j cade said:
    NylonGirl said:

    But do you really think somebody would cite large breasts on a woman, or lack of breasts on a man, as proof that a picture is computer generated?

     

    Depends. Are they there floating despite the figure clearly being braless? That is absolutely something I will clock. (Also if it's video breast physics are usually a clear giveaway -becuse most of the time they'd look more real with nothing. Rather than the floppy weightless jello that a lot of artists seem to go for)

    OMG YES! It's probably TMI, but I do modding for video games (primarily Skyrim) and the amount of people needing to have jello jigglies in their game is astounting. Like guys...they don't bounce like that just from breathing. K? Kthanx. 

    The best part is that I always see calls for breast jiggle talked about as "realism". No. Stop. You can want breasts that look like two hedgehogs wrestling in a sock, that's your prerogative, but don't pretend it's just because you want "realism" (I also sometimes feel the same way in these forums when people talk about female... anatomical elements. You don't need detailed opening morphs for "realism" you know what's perfectly realistic? Pants, or, failing that, pubic hair so luxurious you can't see a thing)
    Post edited by j cade on
  • LeanaLeana Posts: 12,757
    Havos said:

    Since DAZ females tend to be on the skinny side, then they should probably not be walking round with D cups (or bigger).

    Time to say that again: skinny women with natural D cups breasts or larger totally do exist.

    I agree that more variety in characters and better breast posing would be good though, and I wouldn't shed a tear if I never saw the totally ridiculous "watermelon boobs" some people seem to love ever again.

  • SevrinSevrin Posts: 6,313
    Leana said:
    Havos said:

    Since DAZ females tend to be on the skinny side, then they should probably not be walking round with D cups (or bigger).

    Time to say that again: skinny women with natural D cups breasts or larger totally do exist.

    I agree that more variety in characters and better breast posing would be good though, and I wouldn't shed a tear if I never saw the totally ridiculous "watermelon boobs" some people seem to love ever again.

    Then what will I use Those Things watermelon shaders on?

  • PerttiAPerttiA Posts: 10,024
    Leana said:
    Havos said:

    Since DAZ females tend to be on the skinny side, then they should probably not be walking round with D cups (or bigger).

    Time to say that again: skinny women with natural D cups breasts or larger totally do exist.

    I agree that more variety in characters and better breast posing would be good though, and I wouldn't shed a tear if I never saw the totally ridiculous "watermelon boobs" some people seem to love ever again.

    I am still surpriced how aggressive "everybody" is getting when ever someone tries to say that D+ cups are not the norm, at least not outside of LA (USA) and not on someone that's not overweight.

    There is also connection to making photoreal renders in DS, considering that the clothing tends to wrap tightly around the water melons, which doesn't happen in real world unless again talking about adult entertainment, so having smaller ones makes it easier to hide the origins of the picture.

    Had to check my understanding of the term "spinster", if the current meaning was something else than I thought, but no... https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/spinster

    I was trying to find examples of what kind of mental image comes to mind when hearing the term, and here's a couple (safe for work and no parental guidance needed);
    https://supercoolpics.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/pic_00721.jpg
    https://supercoolpics.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/pic_01212.jpg

  • PerttiAPerttiA Posts: 10,024
    j cade said:
    melissastjames said:
    j cade said:
    NylonGirl said:

    But do you really think somebody would cite large breasts on a woman, or lack of breasts on a man, as proof that a picture is computer generated?

     

    Depends. Are they there floating despite the figure clearly being braless? That is absolutely something I will clock. (Also if it's video breast physics are usually a clear giveaway -becuse most of the time they'd look more real with nothing. Rather than the floppy weightless jello that a lot of artists seem to go for)

    OMG YES! It's probably TMI, but I do modding for video games (primarily Skyrim) and the amount of people needing to have jello jigglies in their game is astounting. Like guys...they don't bounce like that just from breathing. K? Kthanx. 

     

    The best part is that I always see calls for breast jiggle talked about as "realism". No. Stop. You can want breasts that look like two hedgehogs wrestling in a sock, that's your prerogative, but don't pretend it's just because you want "realism" (I also sometimes feel the same way in these forums when people talk about female... anatomical elements. You don't need detailed opening morphs for "realism" you know what's perfectly realistic? Pants, or, failing that, pubic hair so luxurious you can't see a thing)

    Breast dynamics probably falls into similar category as Oobleck, except when the person carrying them is standing still or laying down without clothing, the breasts are not effected by any gravitational forces but when confined in clothing and the person is moving, the movement of the breasts imitates the movement of jello or waterfilled balloons.

  • j cadej cade Posts: 2,310
    PerttiA said:
    j cade said:
    melissastjames said:
    j cade said:
    NylonGirl said:

    But do you really think somebody would cite large breasts on a woman, or lack of breasts on a man, as proof that a picture is computer generated?

     

    Depends. Are they there floating despite the figure clearly being braless? That is absolutely something I will clock. (Also if it's video breast physics are usually a clear giveaway -becuse most of the time they'd look more real with nothing. Rather than the floppy weightless jello that a lot of artists seem to go for)

    OMG YES! It's probably TMI, but I do modding for video games (primarily Skyrim) and the amount of people needing to have jello jigglies in their game is astounting. Like guys...they don't bounce like that just from breathing. K? Kthanx. 

     

    The best part is that I always see calls for breast jiggle talked about as "realism". No. Stop. You can want breasts that look like two hedgehogs wrestling in a sock, that's your prerogative, but don't pretend it's just because you want "realism" (I also sometimes feel the same way in these forums when people talk about female... anatomical elements. You don't need detailed opening morphs for "realism" you know what's perfectly realistic? Pants, or, failing that, pubic hair so luxurious you can't see a thing)

    Breast dynamics probably falls into similar category as Oobleck, except when the person carrying them is standing still or laying down without clothing, the breasts are not effected by any gravitational forces but when confined in clothing and the person is moving, the movement of the breasts imitates the movement of jello or waterfilled balloons.

    As someone who currently has them. It doesn't. It *really* doesn't. At all. I cannot begin to impress how much they really, really, don't.
  • wmiller314wmiller314 Posts: 184
    Sevrin said:

    Well, we've come to boob size again.  That's more a matter of general realism, rather than photorealism, though, isn't it?

    Anyway, according to this, the average cup size of American women is, in fact, DD.  That's not to say that they're filled with helium.

    Source: https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/average-breast-size-by-country

    LOL. Thanks. Now I have to move to China!

  • wmiller314wmiller314 Posts: 184
    melissastjames said:
    j cade said:
    NylonGirl said:

    But do you really think somebody would cite large breasts on a woman, or lack of breasts on a man, as proof that a picture is computer generated?

     

    Depends. Are they there floating despite the figure clearly being braless? That is absolutely something I will clock. (Also if it's video breast physics are usually a clear giveaway -becuse most of the time they'd look more real with nothing. Rather than the floppy weightless jello that a lot of artists seem to go for)

    OMG YES! It's probably TMI, but I do modding for video games (primarily Skyrim) and the amount of people needing to have jello jigglies in their game is astounting. Like guys...they don't bounce like that just from breathing. K? Kthanx. 

    And when they do bouunce arouund it hurts! There is a reason the sports bra was invented. I'm not stacked, barely there in fact, but it still hurts if I have to run withtout a bra. 

  • wmiller314wmiller314 Posts: 184
    PerttiA said:
    j cade said:
    melissastjames said:
    j cade said:
    NylonGirl said:

    But do you really think somebody would cite large breasts on a woman, or lack of breasts on a man, as proof that a picture is computer generated?

     

    Depends. Are they there floating despite the figure clearly being braless? That is absolutely something I will clock. (Also if it's video breast physics are usually a clear giveaway -becuse most of the time they'd look more real with nothing. Rather than the floppy weightless jello that a lot of artists seem to go for)

    OMG YES! It's probably TMI, but I do modding for video games (primarily Skyrim) and the amount of people needing to have jello jigglies in their game is astounting. Like guys...they don't bounce like that just from breathing. K? Kthanx. 

     

    The best part is that I always see calls for breast jiggle talked about as "realism". No. Stop. You can want breasts that look like two hedgehogs wrestling in a sock, that's your prerogative, but don't pretend it's just because you want "realism" (I also sometimes feel the same way in these forums when people talk about female... anatomical elements. You don't need detailed opening morphs for "realism" you know what's perfectly realistic? Pants, or, failing that, pubic hair so luxurious you can't see a thing)

    Breast dynamics probably falls into similar category as Oobleck, except when the person carrying them is standing still or laying down without clothing, the breasts are not effected by any gravitational forces but when confined in clothing and the person is moving, the movement of the breasts imitates the movement of jello or waterfilled balloons.

    When I lay down my breasts disappear. :(

  • LeanaLeana Posts: 12,757
    j cade said:
    PerttiA said:
    j cade said:
    melissastjames said:
    j cade said:
    NylonGirl said:

    But do you really think somebody would cite large breasts on a woman, or lack of breasts on a man, as proof that a picture is computer generated?

     

    Depends. Are they there floating despite the figure clearly being braless? That is absolutely something I will clock. (Also if it's video breast physics are usually a clear giveaway -becuse most of the time they'd look more real with nothing. Rather than the floppy weightless jello that a lot of artists seem to go for)

    OMG YES! It's probably TMI, but I do modding for video games (primarily Skyrim) and the amount of people needing to have jello jigglies in their game is astounting. Like guys...they don't bounce like that just from breathing. K? Kthanx. 

     

    The best part is that I always see calls for breast jiggle talked about as "realism". No. Stop. You can want breasts that look like two hedgehogs wrestling in a sock, that's your prerogative, but don't pretend it's just because you want "realism" (I also sometimes feel the same way in these forums when people talk about female... anatomical elements. You don't need detailed opening morphs for "realism" you know what's perfectly realistic? Pants, or, failing that, pubic hair so luxurious you can't see a thing)

    Breast dynamics probably falls into similar category as Oobleck, except when the person carrying them is standing still or laying down without clothing, the breasts are not effected by any gravitational forces but when confined in clothing and the person is moving, the movement of the breasts imitates the movement of jello or waterfilled balloons.

    As someone who currently has them. It doesn't. It *really* doesn't. At all. I cannot begin to impress how much they really, really, don't.

    This. 100% this.

  • NylonGirlNylonGirl Posts: 2,206

    I'd like to see an example of a picture that everybody thinks is fake, but everybody would think is real if the breasts were smaller. I'd also like to see an example of a picture everybody thinks is real, but everybody would think was fake if the breasts were bigger.

  • TesseractSpaceTesseractSpace Posts: 1,582
    PerttiA said:
    Leana said:
    Havos said:

    Since DAZ females tend to be on the skinny side, then they should probably not be walking round with D cups (or bigger).

    Time to say that again: skinny women with natural D cups breasts or larger totally do exist.

    I agree that more variety in characters and better breast posing would be good though, and I wouldn't shed a tear if I never saw the totally ridiculous "watermelon boobs" some people seem to love ever again.

    I am still surpriced how aggressive "everybody" is getting when ever someone tries to say that D+ cups are not the norm, at least not outside of LA (USA) and not on someone that's not overweight.

    There is also connection to making photoreal renders in DS, considering that the clothing tends to wrap tightly around the water melons, which doesn't happen in real world unless again talking about adult entertainment, so having smaller ones makes it easier to hide the origins of the picture.

    Had to check my understanding of the term "spinster", if the current meaning was something else than I thought, but no... https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/spinster

    I was trying to find examples of what kind of mental image comes to mind when hearing the term, and here's a couple (safe for work and no parental guidance needed);
    https://supercoolpics.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/pic_00721.jpg
    https://supercoolpics.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/pic_01212.jpg

    Haven't seen anyone claiming it's the norm but it is possible for a woman to have natural d cups without being overweight. Not common, but possible. 

    As for the spinster comments getting an aggressive reaction, perhaps consider that it might be percieved as a bit sexist to imply that a woman with large breasts must automatically be marriage material solely on that criteria? Again it may not fit the stereotype you reference, but it is possible such a woman might choose not to marry. (And spinster is considered a derogatory term, seeing as it's meant to imply that women must be married by a certain age or become somehow unacceptable for such.)

  • GordigGordig Posts: 10,600

    For context, here is the thread in question. You can see for yourself how "aggressive" people were being with their counterarguments.

  • nonesuch00nonesuch00 Posts: 18,723
    Sevrin said:
    Leana said:
    Havos said:

    Since DAZ females tend to be on the skinny side, then they should probably not be walking round with D cups (or bigger).

    Time to say that again: skinny women with natural D cups breasts or larger totally do exist.

    I agree that more variety in characters and better breast posing would be good though, and I wouldn't shed a tear if I never saw the totally ridiculous "watermelon boobs" some people seem to love ever again.

    Then what will I use Those Things watermelon shaders on?

    Oh wow. Changed my mind. I may not need that product but I definately want and will buy it.

  • nonesuch00nonesuch00 Posts: 18,723
    PerttiA said:
    Leana said:
    Havos said:

    Since DAZ females tend to be on the skinny side, then they should probably not be walking round with D cups (or bigger).

    Time to say that again: skinny women with natural D cups breasts or larger totally do exist.

    I agree that more variety in characters and better breast posing would be good though, and I wouldn't shed a tear if I never saw the totally ridiculous "watermelon boobs" some people seem to love ever again.

    I am still surpriced how aggressive "everybody" is getting when ever someone tries to say that D+ cups are not the norm, at least not outside of LA (USA) and not on someone that's not overweight.

    There is also connection to making photoreal renders in DS, considering that the clothing tends to wrap tightly around the water melons, which doesn't happen in real world unless again talking about adult entertainment, so having smaller ones makes it easier to hide the origins of the picture.

    Had to check my understanding of the term "spinster", if the current meaning was something else than I thought, but no... https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/spinster

    I was trying to find examples of what kind of mental image comes to mind when hearing the term, and here's a couple (safe for work and no parental guidance needed);
    https://supercoolpics.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/pic_00721.jpg
    https://supercoolpics.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/pic_01212.jpg

    Hmmm, that definition now says 'spinster' is an insult but I've never even heard the word used as an insult. The word is more indicative of a quiet independent competence. 

  • PerttiAPerttiA Posts: 10,024
    edited October 2020
    wmiller314 said:
    Sevrin said:

    Well, we've come to boob size again.  That's more a matter of general realism, rather than photorealism, though, isn't it?

    Anyway, according to this, the average cup size of American women is, in fact, DD.  That's not to say that they're filled with helium.

    Source: https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/average-breast-size-by-country

    LOL. Thanks. Now I have to move to China!

    According to those charts, I should also be seeing double melons where ever I look, if I dared to look, but I don't even with almost 50% of my 300 colleagues having those gravity defying jello things on their chest... And if I search the net for pictures of asian, especially japanese women, their A-cup must be based on some other standard.

    It gets funny, when you check the charts for the other gender... It's almost like what's given to the one gender, is taken off from the other... With the exception of China cheeky

    Post edited by PerttiA on
  • PerttiAPerttiA Posts: 10,024
    TesseractSpace said:
    PerttiA said:
    Leana said:
    Havos said:

    Since DAZ females tend to be on the skinny side, then they should probably not be walking round with D cups (or bigger).

    Time to say that again: skinny women with natural D cups breasts or larger totally do exist.

    I agree that more variety in characters and better breast posing would be good though, and I wouldn't shed a tear if I never saw the totally ridiculous "watermelon boobs" some people seem to love ever again.

    I am still surpriced how aggressive "everybody" is getting when ever someone tries to say that D+ cups are not the norm, at least not outside of LA (USA) and not on someone that's not overweight.

    There is also connection to making photoreal renders in DS, considering that the clothing tends to wrap tightly around the water melons, which doesn't happen in real world unless again talking about adult entertainment, so having smaller ones makes it easier to hide the origins of the picture.

    Had to check my understanding of the term "spinster", if the current meaning was something else than I thought, but no... https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/spinster

    I was trying to find examples of what kind of mental image comes to mind when hearing the term, and here's a couple (safe for work and no parental guidance needed);
    https://supercoolpics.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/pic_00721.jpg
    https://supercoolpics.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/pic_01212.jpg

    Haven't seen anyone claiming it's the norm but it is possible for a woman to have natural d cups without being overweight. Not common, but possible. 

    As for the spinster comments getting an aggressive reaction, perhaps consider that it might be percieved as a bit sexist to imply that a woman with large breasts must automatically be marriage material solely on that criteria? Again it may not fit the stereotype you reference, but it is possible such a woman might choose not to marry. (And spinster is considered a derogatory term, seeing as it's meant to imply that women must be married by a certain age or become somehow unacceptable for such.)

    Thank you for explaining - I was trying to describe an idea for a scene, where I would not choose shrink-wrapped melons on the character, I didn't call the character a nun or a primary school teacher since the imagery for them is leaning towards other things than repenting and education.

    As it happens, I'm the grand grand grandson of a Leech (as recorded in the official church records) and I'm not offended by it, it was a valid "occupation" at that time.

     

  • lilweeplilweep Posts: 2,746

    is everyone here still talking about boobs.  someone can look photoreal whether they are heroin chic or have big mommy milkers, case closed your honour.

  • HeraHera Posts: 1,958

    My biggest problem is that we're still getting these clothes that look like they are painted on the character rather than put un. Especially aroud - yes - the female breasts. It's fine with a corset, but a tee or a cardigan or a jacket? Please no!

  • lilweeplilweep Posts: 2,746
    Hera said:

    My biggest problem is that we're still getting these clothes that look like they are painted on the character rather than put un. Especially aroud - yes - the female breasts. It's fine with a corset, but a tee or a cardigan or a jacket? Please no!

    Yes the conforming nature of clothing make most daz clothing ugly if they deviate beyond the supported full body morphs or other morphs.

    Marvelous Designer and other sims add so much more for realism.  I dont use Dforce but heard the simulation relaxes to the conformed shape? 

  • watchdog79watchdog79 Posts: 1,026
    Hera said:

    My biggest problem is that we're still getting these clothes that look like they are painted on the character rather than put un. Especially aroud - yes - the female breasts. It's fine with a corset, but a tee or a cardigan or a jacket? Please no!

    There are some products to mitigate that:

    https://www.daz3d.com/fit-control-for-genesis-8-female-s

    https://www.daz3d.com/fit-control-add-on-for-genesis-3--8-female

    https://www.daz3d.com/sy-decrackifier-for-genesis-8

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