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Filament tutorials/shaders/lights?

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  • barbultbarbult Posts: 26,179
    cajhin said:

    Quick tip since I haven't seen this mentioned elsewhere:

    Spotlight properties > Display > Ray Length

    This is "display" so it should only be how the cone is drawn in preview. Iray works like that (it does not care about ray length).

    In Filament it makes a big difference, though. Light really stops at the end of the cone.

    @MEC4D, thanks for your latest card. I've read and understood this before, but this really helps me *remember* it.

    P.S. in the post editor, is there a way to get the URL of an attached photo, *before* you save the comment?

    This is a very timely post. I ran into this very problem with spotlight ray length a couple days ago. I wonder if it is a bug or if it is an attempt to model fall off or something. Thanks for documenting it here.

  • MEC4DMEC4D Posts: 5,249
    edited November 2020

    That's a very good tip, thanks for sharing , I need it yesterday so badly and since spot light is only light right now that have correct shadows even better 

    I checked all options yesterday but skipped the Display lol 

    and regarding comments , no your can't get the image URL before you post, I tried but it only give me a thumbnail URL and not the actual one to the image 

    maybe there is other way but not sure.

    cajhin said:

    Quick tip since I haven't seen this mentioned elsewhere:

    Spotlight properties > Display > Ray Length

    This is "display" so it should only be how the cone is drawn in preview. Iray works like that (it does not care about ray length).

    In Filament it makes a big difference, though. Light really stops at the end of the cone.

    @MEC4D, thanks for your latest card. I've read and understood this before, but this really helps me *remember* it.

    P.S. in the post editor, is there a way to get the URL of an attached photo, *before* you save the comment?

     

    Post edited by MEC4D on
  • MEC4DMEC4D Posts: 5,249

    BTW Michael 4 birthday is in 2 days , November 20 , 12 years old 

    I converted M4 to Filament and some old clothing, adjusted the albedo and new reflectance settings  ,I have so much animations for Animate2 to use with M4 and works so quick in real time

    I did not used M4 since Genesis arrived to D|S , and yes it have separate nostrils material zone so it doesn't glow as much

    I need to try my old textures for M4 and some morphs since this texture have so low resolution and horrible bump maps that are not usable at all

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  • barbultbarbult Posts: 26,179
    edited November 2020

    I'm looking for some more advice. I did a scene with Rural Chateau bundle Iray Addon, It is an interior scene and I don't believe there are any geometry gaps between the walls and floor, but I get bad "light leaks". I'm guessing it has something to do with AO, but I can't find any settings that fix it. It only happens when I have a distant light in the scene. The distant light has Ray Traced Shadows. if I light the scene only with HDRI, the "light leaks" don't occur.

    Also, I couldn't get the distant light to shine through the glass windows. I finally used the geometry editor to delete the "glass" polygons. 

     

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  • MEC4DMEC4D Posts: 5,249

    It is in filament right ?

    To me it looks like light refleftions , did you edited proper  the reflectance and roughness ?  reflectance around 0.36 , check the shader

    why? because I see the same thing on top that should be not there , strong reflection 

    the light will passing through in filament into any objects from HDRI , check the glossy reflectivity settings , that may be the only fix.

    With the windows , the refraction in Filament works only partially , the light from Distant Light will no pass through only HDRI light but it do to any objects and surface anyway. There is no volume or caustics in Filament and thing like bending light don't accure , when you use refraction on eyes , only HDRI light will pass through , distance light will causes shadow of the cornea .

    Even if you use Cutout opacity at 0 the Distant light still create shadow of the full object and not just what you cut out , that's why trasmapped hair will create full geometry shadows and not just from the hair that are visible 

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  • MEC4DMEC4D Posts: 5,249
    edited November 2020

    Talking about Cutout Opacity , the shadows will not be accurate with Transmapped hair while using Distant Light or Spot Light  at this moment in Filament 

    The reflections are working proper  on the areas that was cut out of the sphere using alpha maps .

    So the geometry on top of the hair will create shadow on everything else below that

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  • barbultbarbult Posts: 26,179
    MEC4D said:

    It is in filament right ?

    To me it looks like light refleftions , did you edited proper  the reflectance and roughness ?  reflectance around 0.36 , check the shader

    why? because I see the same thing on top that should be not there , strong reflection 

    the light will passing through in filament into any objects from HDRI , check the glossy reflectivity settings , that may be the only fix.

    With the windows , the refraction in Filament works only partially , the light from Distant Light will no pass through only HDRI light but it do to any objects and surface anyway. There is no volume or caustics in Filament and thing like bending light don't accure , when you use refraction on eyes , only HDRI light will pass through , distance light will causes shadow of the cornea .

    Even if you use Cutout opacity at 0 the Distant light still create shadow of the full object and not just what you cut out , that's why trasmapped hair will create full geometry shadows and not just from the hair that are visible 

    It is Filament, yes. Thank you for the info. I did make an effort to change the glossy settings according to your previous advice, but maybe there are surfaces that I missed. I will check again. 

  • barbultbarbult Posts: 26,179
    MEC4D said:

    Talking about Cutout Opacity , the shadows will not be accurate with Transmapped hair while using Distant Light or Spot Light  at this moment in Filament 

    The reflections are working proper  on the areas that was cut out of the sphere using alpha maps .

    So the geometry on top of the hair will create shadow on everything else below that

    I don't understand what is demonstrated in the first image. What makes part of the sphere gray? Is it cut out but still reflecting the gray environment? What does "no pure RGB 255" mean? It looks like the shadow only shows part of the sphere, but in the other two image examples, the shadow is the full sphere. What made the first image have only a cutoff shadow?

  • MEC4DMEC4D Posts: 5,249

    What make the sphere half gray? when using Cutout opacity as Transparency slider  

    Pure white and black is what you use in the Cutout Opacity map , most important is to have pure black color background in the map, if the value is less it will flipp and create bad effect

    the half shadow you see from the sphere is the Distant Light shadow that I have issues with , on some angles of the camera it cut off the shadows , it may be a bug 

    Pure white in RGB is 255 for each color Red: 255 Green: 255 Blue: 255  when you create maps for Cutout opacity , the maps need to have the pure white value for the surfaces on the object you want to be visible and the pure black for the background where you want  the surface to be invisible .  In short pure black color will cut out the model surface and make it invisible .

    Check the shaders of the interior , I am almost 100% sure it is the glossy settings , remove the HDRI or turn it off , and check with the distant light only , if you still see the light then it is other issue than glossy

    barbult said:
    MEC4D said:

    Talking about Cutout Opacity , the shadows will not be accurate with Transmapped hair while using Distant Light or Spot Light  at this moment in Filament 

    The reflections are working proper  on the areas that was cut out of the sphere using alpha maps .

    So the geometry on top of the hair will create shadow on everything else below that

    I don't understand what is demonstrated in the first image. What makes part of the sphere gray? Is it cut out but still reflecting the gray environment? What does "no pure RGB 255" mean? It looks like the shadow only shows part of the sphere, but in the other two image examples, the shadow is the full sphere. What made the first image have only a cutoff shadow?

     

  • barbultbarbult Posts: 26,179

    I thought I found the culprit for the rural chateau reflections. Some surface had top coat on. So I set that to 0 for all surfaces. It really made no discernable difference. I verified that the glossy settings were correct. So, I created a simple scene. I made a primitive cube and deleted some polygons to allow light in. I put my camera inside the cube. I set the cube surface glossy settings as you described in your card. I set the environment light scale to 0 and added a pink distant light with ray traced shadows. There are unexpected stray pink reflections or light leaks all over the place.

    I am attaching my scene. It has an animation that rotates the pink distant light.

    I am attaching a screenshot showing the distant light rotation at frame 0.

     

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  • MEC4DMEC4D Posts: 5,249

    That is the issue with Distant Light and shadows  , They already looking into this issue as I just reported , that the reason for my issues too with Distant Light 

    What card you use for Filament ?

    barbult said:

    I thought I found the culprit for the rural chateau reflections. Some surface had top coat on. So I set that to 0 for all surfaces. It really made no discernable difference. I verified that the glossy settings were correct. So, I created a simple scene. I made a primitive cube and deleted some polygons to allow light in. I put my camera inside the cube. I set the cube surface glossy settings as you described in your card. I set the environment light scale to 0 and added a pink distant light with ray traced shadows. There are unexpected stray pink reflections or light leaks all over the place.

    I am attaching my scene. It has an animation that rotates the pink distant light.

    I am attaching a screenshot showing the distant light rotation at frame 0.

     

     

  • barbultbarbult Posts: 26,179
    MEC4D said:

    That is the issue with Distant Light and shadows  , They already looking into this issue as I just reported , that the reason for my issues too with Distant Light 

    What card you use for Filament ?

    barbult said:

    I thought I found the culprit for the rural chateau reflections. Some surface had top coat on. So I set that to 0 for all surfaces. It really made no discernable difference. I verified that the glossy settings were correct. So, I created a simple scene. I made a primitive cube and deleted some polygons to allow light in. I put my camera inside the cube. I set the cube surface glossy settings as you described in your card. I set the environment light scale to 0 and added a pink distant light with ray traced shadows. There are unexpected stray pink reflections or light leaks all over the place.

    I am attaching my scene. It has an animation that rotates the pink distant light.

    I am attaching a screenshot showing the distant light rotation at frame 0.

     

     

    My graphics card is GTX 980ti. Does it make a difference?

  • MEC4DMEC4D Posts: 5,249
    edited November 2020

    It may be,  I see GTX users have Distant Light issue and RTX spot light changing intensity when zoom in and out  , there is a pattern and definitely a bug .

    2 builds ago I did not had this issue .

    barbult said:
    MEC4D said:

    That is the issue with Distant Light and shadows  , They already looking into this issue as I just reported , that the reason for my issues too with Distant Light 

    What card you use for Filament ?

    barbult said:

    I thought I found the culprit for the rural chateau reflections. Some surface had top coat on. So I set that to 0 for all surfaces. It really made no discernable difference. I verified that the glossy settings were correct. So, I created a simple scene. I made a primitive cube and deleted some polygons to allow light in. I put my camera inside the cube. I set the cube surface glossy settings as you described in your card. I set the environment light scale to 0 and added a pink distant light with ray traced shadows. There are unexpected stray pink reflections or light leaks all over the place.

    I am attaching my scene. It has an animation that rotates the pink distant light.

    I am attaching a screenshot showing the distant light rotation at frame 0.

     

     

    My graphics card is GTX 980ti. Does it make a difference?

     

    Post edited by MEC4D on
  • barbultbarbult Posts: 26,179
    MEC4D said:

    It may be,  I see GTX users have Distant Light issue and RTX spot light changing intensity when zoom in and out  , there is a pattern and definitely a bug .

    2 builds ago I did not had this issue .

    barbult said:
    MEC4D said:

    That is the issue with Distant Light and shadows  , They already looking into this issue as I just reported , that the reason for my issues too with Distant Light 

    What card you use for Filament ?

    barbult said:

    I thought I found the culprit for the rural chateau reflections. Some surface had top coat on. So I set that to 0 for all surfaces. It really made no discernable difference. I verified that the glossy settings were correct. So, I created a simple scene. I made a primitive cube and deleted some polygons to allow light in. I put my camera inside the cube. I set the cube surface glossy settings as you described in your card. I set the environment light scale to 0 and added a pink distant light with ray traced shadows. There are unexpected stray pink reflections or light leaks all over the place.

    I am attaching my scene. It has an animation that rotates the pink distant light.

    I am attaching a screenshot showing the distant light rotation at frame 0.

     

     

    My graphics card is GTX 980ti. Does it make a difference?

     

    My husband has an RTX 2060. I'll try it on his computer sometime when he is not using it.
  • nonesuch00nonesuch00 Posts: 18,714
    MEC4D said:

    We have a lot of conversations about Cutout Opacity 5 years ago  and a lot of explanations why not using it the way many do. 

    You can use it to cut out the geometry and that's what it is for , with a dress you can create beautiful maps to cut out the threads and make it work like half transparent and still be accurate and proper and render quick .

    Same with the hair , many  hair I have on my library use glossy values for diamond for no reason , the reflectance of the hair in the iray is not greater than 0.5 unless you go for shiny synthetic wig style . 

    That includes characters as well with maps that are plugged in for no reason and glossy values beyond this earth, mixed values for both specular and metallicity basic shaders in one shader even if not working together , total chaos ! Specular/glossiness base mix shaders have greater control over the surface than metallicity/roughness in iray and that is a fact so sometimes things in Filament may not look as good as they look in iray. Filament works best at this moment with Metallicity/roughness base mix shader , as that is a very simple shader for a simple render engine like Filament , and less chances of making errors or mistakes .

    But when you see Metallicity/roughness shader with a glossy color set up for non reason is wrong  , that tells me the creator has no clue what they are doing.

    I can go here with a long list of stuff ..but let's stay on the positive side and do better next time !

     

    nonesuch00 said:
    barbult said:
    MEC4D said:

    It is this way since 5 years in DS and iray ... Cutout Opacity , is not transparency .. it is alpha channel  2 colors ..  

    As you say, we have been told this since the beginning of Iray, but PAs contrinue to deliver products using grayscale maps in Cutout Opacity, especially for hair and fabrics. 

    Ah, so the secret of why so many products I can't get to work how I expect if they use cutout opacity.

     

    Thanks. That was very helpful partial summary. I always assume the PAs are trained in PBR standards that make the DO models but now I realized they are probably just copying prior DOs settings. I wish they were trained because I am not & that is a partial reason why I buy professional products.

  • MEC4DMEC4D Posts: 5,249

    To tell the truth I have to edit most all products shaders I own .

    Just don't get the idea that perfect PBR shader settings will work the same way in iray and Filament, as that is not always the case as many functions that work perfect in iray will not work in Filament at this moment .

    Specular/Glossiness shaders have higher range of details and possibilities in settings in iray  than Metallicity/Roughness base shaders that are more simple , for the same reason Metallicity based shaders works better in Filament than Specular/Glossiness shaders as not all functions will be used in Filament .

    So if you come across a surface that renders bad in Filament not meaning it is always bad settings , but there are some things that are completely out of this earth and totally wrong .

    That why I was very happy about Filament , as that is the kind of engine that most people use to work with when creating PBR shaders for Iray or game engines , it is a good guide for the people that doing things out of their imaginations , you don't need to have a training for that, just follow the simple PBR rules. 

    1. No object surfaces can be lighter than light source in the scene , this mean not above RGB 240 ( under Color Base ), since the light value is RGB 255 ( pure white color)
    2. No objects surfaces  should be darker than RGB 444 ( Red: 4 Green: 4 Blue: 4 ) unless you create a black hole or the darkest paint on earth.
    3. No object surfaces that are non metals should have Glossy/Reflectivity setting bellow 0.1789 or above 0.50 ( unless you create a gemstones that start at 0.50 and ends at 1.0 value )
    4. For all Metal surfaces the Specular color should be not darker than RGB 170 ( under Color Base ) unless there is need for a special effect like oxidation or weathered effect but that will turn the metal into non metal dielectric surface like for example a rusted metal what lands under Non metal category and the settings should be used for non metal surfaces in this case 

    And that is all about the training for base PBR Metallicity/Roughness base shader .. not hard to follow basics that will works great in Filament and Iray

    nonesuch00 said:
    MEC4D said:

     

     

    Thanks. That was very helpful partial summary. I always assume the PAs are trained in PBR standards that make the DO models but now I realized they are probably just copying prior DOs settings. I wish they were trained because I am not & that is a partial reason why I buy professional products.

     

  • MEC4DMEC4D Posts: 5,249

    That would be helpful to see if that is really the case and easier for DAZ team to locate the issue , as most people using RTX don't experience my issue at all .

    Please also check the Spot light also , and see if it really change the light intensity when you zoom in and out the scene , I don't have that issue but I saw RTX users do

    barbult said:
    MEC4D said:

     

     

    My husband has an RTX 2060. I'll try it on his computer sometime when he is not using it.

     

  • barbultbarbult Posts: 26,179
    1. My Rural Chateau image has the same unexplained light reflections or light leaks on RTX 2060 as on GTX 980ti. The test with the camera in the cube also showed the same strange light behavior on RTX as GTX.
    2. I do not see any change in spotlight intensity when ZOOMING (changing focal length) the camera in and out on either RTX or GTX.
    3. If MOVE the camera very very far away, I do see a sudden dropoff and shadow artifacts in the spotlight on both RTX and GTX.

    So, although all this behavior is suspect and probably buggy, it is consistent for me between RTX and GTX.

    @MEC4D what was the specific issue you had that you wanted me to check on RTX? Do you have a scene file to post that I should render on RTX?  You said "most people using RTX don't experience my issue at all"

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  • MEC4DMEC4D Posts: 5,249

    There is not problem here with the light but the shadows that do not render proper when using Distant Light for the same reason you have the light leaking issues as there the shadow should stop it , but it doesn't 

    same issue different scenario

    load the scene with the plane and ball and change the angle of the Distant light to -45 or -90 and see if the shadows are accurate from the sphere and not cut off in half , you can set the camera to top view and see if there is full shadow or not

  • MEC4DMEC4D Posts: 5,249
    edited November 2020

    @barbult I used your scene 

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  • barbultbarbult Posts: 26,179

    Your scene renders the same way on RTX 2060.

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  • MEC4DMEC4D Posts: 5,249

    @barbult Thanks a lot,  so now we know for sure , going to repot 

  • MEC4DMEC4D Posts: 5,249

    What happening in your box scene is that only half of the shadow is created and the rest of the light is passing through the object , all lights source passing light through objects in Filament if there is no shadow active , and as in our case, only half shadow .

    barbult said:

    Your scene renders the same way on RTX 2060.

     

  • barbultbarbult Posts: 26,179
    MEC4D said:

    What happening in your box scene is that only half of the shadow is created and the rest of the light is passing through the object , all lights source passing light through objects in Filament if there is no shadow active , and as in our case, only half shadow .

    barbult said:

    Your scene renders the same way on RTX 2060.

     

    Oh, so now it is making some sense - BUG!

  • MEC4DMEC4D Posts: 5,249

    a HUGE one .. I think I noticed it in your building scene as I missed the shadows on the other left plant

     they looking into it already so gonna be fixed with upcoming releases .

    barbult said:
    MEC4D said:

    What happening in your box scene is that only half of the shadow is created and the rest of the light is passing through the object , all lights source passing light through objects in Filament if there is no shadow active , and as in our case, only half shadow .

    barbult said:

    Your scene renders the same way on RTX 2060.

     

    Oh, so now it is making some sense - BUG!

     

  • barbultbarbult Posts: 26,179
    MEC4D said:

    a HUGE one .. I think I noticed it in your building scene as I missed the shadows on the other left plant

     they looking into it already so gonna be fixed with upcoming releases .

    barbult said:
    MEC4D said:

    What happening in your box scene is that only half of the shadow is created and the rest of the light is passing through the object , all lights source passing light through objects in Filament if there is no shadow active , and as in our case, only half shadow .

    barbult said:

    Your scene renders the same way on RTX 2060.

     

    Oh, so now it is making some sense - BUG!

     

    Great! That should be an improvement that is noticeable.

  • nonesuch00nonesuch00 Posts: 18,714

    @MECH4D you are making a set of shader presets to properly convert at least the more recent Genesis 8 products to a more proper set of PBS settings so they work better in Filament? Thanks! And I'll buy a copy too!

  • WendyLuvsCatzWendyLuvsCatz Posts: 40,036

    I got this on a video uploaded October 19

    you should watch the Getting Started with Filament from The WP Guru, your Filament lighting settings are way out of balance

    hindsight is a wonderful thing for critics, I had not even learnt of the  Filament draw options or anything yet

    I was playing with the beta

  • MEC4DMEC4D Posts: 5,249

    Ok no problem yes 

    nonesuch00 said:

    @MECH4D you are making a set of shader presets to properly convert at least the more recent Genesis 8 products to a more proper set of PBS settings so they work better in Filament? Thanks! And I'll buy a copy too!

     

  • MEC4DMEC4D Posts: 5,249

    Wendy, there is not much to learn about , each scene need own adjusting so not like there is one preset for everything , all depends of how much stuff on the scene, how close to each other and how good it looks for you 

    hindsight are OK as you can see what's new, sadly he forgot about the shadows, most important feature in Filament to get some dissent look from the scene . Also Filament need Enviorment map to works proper and reflect materials the proper way and not just  an empty scene with a spot light, that's the whole purpose of it , unless you doing a walk in a space wink balancing the Ambient light with the spot light/Distant light  is a key

    WendyLuvsCatz said:

    I got this on a video uploaded October 19

    you should watch the Getting Started with Filament from The WP Guru, your Filament lighting settings are way out of balance

    hindsight is a wonderful thing for critics, I had not even learnt of the  Filament draw options or anything yet

    I was playing with the beta

     

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