dForce vs. VWD cloth and hair - version 2
wizard1200
Posts: 240
in The Commons
What are the differences between the regular dForce simulation and the simulation with VWD cloth and hair - version 2?
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Typically, dforce is built into the clothing.
With VWD, you have to set it up yourself.
You can have much better hair simulations using VWD than dForce.
I am by no means an expert with either, but ... you can use both on pretty much any item. dForce happens in DS, VWD is partly external (it communicates back and forth). dForce can simulate multiple things at once (both static and dynamic items, such a a figure (static), hair and dress (both dynamic)), VWD works (or can work with) mutliple collision items (static) but only one cloth or hair item (dynamic). The dForce sim will run to end, VWD you can pause and resume, apparently (I have yet been able to work out how) able to mess with the vertices of the items in-between. If you want/ need more than one dynamic item in VWD you'd 'layer them', bottom to top, with separate runs of the product.
I'd like to see some of VWD's fearures in dForce, and vice-versa. I presume dForce has this as well, but like the 'old' optitex dynamics in VWD the meshes involved should be similar in density for best results.
Being (at UI level) a more complex beast VWD takes some getting used to, but I think it is well worth it.
not got the new version so I cannot comment on that
the two huge plusses over Dforce is
it uses converting to a prop mesh and nailing instead of conforming with simulated bits which is useful in some cases
and it does not explode easily like Dforce does
the minuses are it is limited in how many polys the mesh can have and it changes the topology so cannot be used for morphs
I find both useful for different garments
I prefer VWD, mostly. The issue I have with it, which I can work around within dforce: is edge depth. I get some edge depth in dforce, using morphs, whereas VWD doesn't allow that - so far at least. The ability to pause, resume and tug about the cloth (like in marvelous designer) is invaluable.
... But often, one of the biggest killers for believeability is the lack of edge depth - and coupled with this is perfectly smooth lines (straight or curved). It isn't normal to see and only distance in real-life situations can give that affect. Neither of which are the fault of Dforce or VWD.
I still use both though.
As opposed to what? dForce can be used with props, it's just that most clothing is supplied as conforming for convenience (allows, within limits, use without dForce simulation and starting the sim from the current pose for example). Nailing can be handled with weight maps.
Depends on the item, and on simulation settings.
I bought the original VWD (with the DAZ Studio bridge add-on) but, despite hours of generous personal help from the developer, couldn't find a way to avoid getting Windows exception errors. I notice that in the Rendo forum for the new version, others are getting similar errors. I don't know whether this is because of a particular hardware/Operating System configuration or what but the developer eventually refunded my purchase and I now use dForce within DAZ Studio.
The main reason I would have preferred VWD over dForce would have been the ability to tweak the cloth as it is draping. No need for fiddly dForce magnets and other such inconveniences - simply drag the cloth with the mouse like you can do in Marvelous Designer. When dForce can do that (and drape at an acceptable speed), it will be a great advance for DAZ Studio.
it converts the conformed clothing to a prop you then nail to body parts, those nailed bits still simulate and wrinkle but stay in place
Dforce explodes a lot for me in animation even no intersecting mesh
VWD will recover if it intersects
dforce is still often the best choice in some situations
I use both, they all have their strengths
I agree with Wendy. I have VWD (and bought the upgrade, which is fantastic), but I often use dforce if it's already been set up by the artist. It works quite well for me and I rarely get explosions.
I find VWD easier to work with on non dforce clothing - especially if it has belts and buttons. Setting the surface to "rigid" is a lot easier than making rigid follow-nodes for each button.
Oh!
And, yes, as Rafmer mentioned, VWD also does hair simulations on non dforce hair that can achieve pretty fantastic results.
That is the biggest plus.
I tried the first version, it was a horrible experience. So bad, I hated it very much, made me want to go fight puppies. I might revisit it again soon if I can find the time, as I have a better cpu and gpu combo now. It might work a lot smoother lol. Or I may just end up wanting to go fight kittens, who knows.
Don't need a perfect simulation, only manually brushing and styling hair to fit dynamics isn't really doing a nice job.
The developer of VWD has made strides toward that, but as of right now it doesn't work too well.
If I could be certain that the Windows exception errors I got while using the first version have been fixed, I might buy version 2. But judging by what I've seen on the support forum, those exceptions are still there for some and I have no reason to think that they would not re-appear for me too. Rendo does not have the 30 day return policy that DAZ has so it can be a tedious business trying to get a refund. I have been on the receiving end of angry and insulting responses from two Rendo vendors (NOT VWD - he was very helpful) when trying to request a refund for products that did not work as advertised. DAZ removes that direct contact which is very wise of them.
As a user of the first version (mostly with Poser), I installed and tried the freebie demo they've got (the demo doesn't save back to DS) to be sure it loaded and worked with my DAZ (4.12 for the animation updates), and it seemed to work well enough for me (Win 10, but having an older GPU made me nervous). It's the same version as the real product, so I assume the internals are the same.
I have a love/hate with VWD - some interface elements make me wonder, and at the same time I wish all of my programs had some of the clever interface elements he built into the program.
It is a different creature than DAZ's DForce, but that's part of why I have and use both. Also, I've found that DForce items work well with VWD - they don't fall apart either!
YMMV,
--ms
Yes, I thought of the trial version too but I remember that the Windows errors didn't appear in the first trial either - I really can't remember the circumstances. As a matter of interest - what does make you use VWD rather than dForce (or vice-versa)? For me it would be the ability to drag the cloth while draping. Like everything else in DAZ Studio, I find dForce painfully slow - how are you finding VWD now that he has included GPU processing? Another thing I didn't like about VWD, as I recall, was the fact that it created a duplicate of the mesh rather than drape the original object (or am I thinking of something else?).
To be frank, I have Marvelous Designer but it scares me. I've bought numerous tutorials and made a start on trying to stitch together a garment but I've ended up with an ugly mess. I couldn't sew in real life and I can't in virtual life either, it seems (or should that be seams?). It is just too convenient to buy a dForce item and let it do its thing inside DAZ Studio.
I think this is only a problem with the Carrara bridge product. I only use it in Carrara for certain things because of this, although the remeshing that it applies can be used to good advantage if you need that kind of re-topo. Kind of like an 'Instant Meshes' tool/workflow, but much less involved to get the result. I wish there was a checkbox to 'leave it alone' (obj) or to use re-topo.
The DAZ/Poser versions preserve the vertex integrity (for use in morphs) - at least I'm pretty sure they do (anyone else know?) - I thought a few vendors used VWD to produce their cloth and hair product morphs (oops - trade secret? :)
--ms
well it was in DAZ studio I actually discovered that issue as I rig stuff for DAZ figures in DAZ studio and import morphs.
Dforce I can rotate 90° and drape sleeves and export objs I import back and righten to reexport and then use attenuate in morphloader to create morphs for different parts and all sorts of stuff for conforming clothes, it's actually my most common use for dforce.
VWD I cannot do that but I certainly prefer it in DS as well as Carrrara for animated stuff.
I really liked VWD, and it has a few features I prefer to dForce. Being able to pull and tweak with the sim, the ability to sim further is nice, and it seems less prone to exploding with collisions.
But, for me, I find dForce stuff a lot easier to understand and work with, and the ability to save dForce stuff along with a shader is a _massive_ benefit. I don't really like VWD's end product of a rigid object. These advantages won me over and I haven't touched VWD since dForce became available.
I also have the Optitex plugin but gave that up when I discovered VWD, because being limited to only a few products? MEH.
For hair, I VASTLY prefer dForce hair; having the power to tweak density and other stuff is a huge advantage.
smile... (please don't fight the wee fuzzballs because of VWD :)
Yeah, VWD is a slightly different kind of beast and we've found that its interface really doesn't 'click' with some users, but others seem to like it. Like licorice, I not many people 'sort of' like it.
To avoid disappointment and frustration: to those that didn't like the first version interface, the update hasn't changed the interface that much. Please don't purchase it again unless you've tried the updated free demo and like it.
The biggest single change that might appeal to those who are wary of the VWD approach is that two configuration assistants have been added to help with importing items. That said, for fine-tuning, the powerful (but manual) process for the assignment of specific materials and properties, etc. has not changed.
So as not to advertise here (a fair DAZ TOC constraint), please seek out the new update information for yourself and see if VWD can enhance your toolkit and workflow. I believe all of the current product renders were done in DAZ Studio, many using dForce products bought from here in the DAZ marketplace.
Using VWD takes some getting-used-to, but, as mentioned here and elsewhere, it offers some different and complimentary strengths that may be useful in your varied workflows.
I hope this helps, and we will try to answer any questions while respecting the DAZ Community and TOS.
Best,
dan
Cheap experiment. Doesn't muck with registry, so cleaning it up is easy enough. May save you some headaches and cash.
The same - realtime drag-draping is very cool and allows for results I can't imagine how you'd get otherwise - in some cases, I don't think you could.
I also like the sim results better with softer materials, and I like that you can 'easily' select and assign varied softness and simulation styles on the same item.
To be honest, I gravitate toward CPU, but that's mostly because my GPU is old (760), and not much faster, and if I have problems with exceptions and the like, they are usually with my GPU, so without a speed gain, I just use the CPU - seems more stable. But it's not fair to blame VWD for my cruddy hardware issues, and I have to wait 10s and 20s of minutes for sequences of sims sometimes (usually around 300 frame animations w a few extra seconds per frame added up), so a 2080 card might really be appreciated if I had ever used one.
Actually, this VWD choice suprised me at first, but I actually really like that VWD makes a copy of my original and interacts with that, rather than my original scene item. By doing this, the duplicated item can also be exported and generally managed autonomously without mucking up my originals. This was especially nice when I was first figuring out how VWD *didn't* work during my experiments ... I could always delete the VWD copy and start again.
lol :)
I see no reason not to use DForce for simple/natural drapes - especially with still image creation. With animations and layered interactions and the like, VWD is certainly more work, but it actually does exactly what I need, now that I've figured out the "VWD way", but it took a bit to get to where I can count on the results matching my so-called 'vision'.
I've wondered of Marvelous Designer was easy or hard, but like any capable tool, it sounds like it's got a real learning curve too. I laugh at your comment as I recall picking up a violin after being able to play a guitar. Not the same thing... the results were ugly and humbling.
--ms
Thanks for the better-informed information. This is good to know.
BTW, some new body jiggle stuff is included in the new version, speaking of animation.
--ms
Yeah, I'm hoping the next version of DAZ Studio has that too but I've been hoping that for years.