Muscle-Based Deformation take 2

Decided to make a new thread because I made a lot of changes to the rig and wanted the first post to showcase the new version.

Below there's a 10 min video of me going through the arm and legs bends. Torso bends are nothing special, they're done in a typical fashion. (I fidget with the camera a lot so you're gonna have to suffer through that)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLomoLI7y_g&feature=youtu.be

Issues: You will see some funky deltoid bends when I move the shoulder joint. This is because the movement is non-phisiological. The collar and shoulder joints work in tandem therefore when you see me use the pose tool these funky bends will disappear. When in a T-Pose, moving the hand extended in front has a different set of order rotation than when starting from having your arm at your side. Changing the rotation order of the joint will eliminate the funky bends when starting from one initial pose but will mess up when starting from another initial pose. Using the pose tool eliminates the need for understanding these phisiological movement minutiae. The same applies for the pelvis joint.

«13

Comments

  • marblemarble Posts: 6,539

    Totally impressive.

    I'd love to see it working with a non-muscular figure (fat or flabby - even slightly) to see if the skin/flesh deforms too.

  • Faux2DFaux2D Posts: 431
    marble said:

    Totally impressive.

    I'd love to see it working with a non-muscular figure (fat or flabby - even slightly) to see if the skin/flesh deforms too.

    Smoothed the features in ZBrush then imported it as a morph: 

    https://imgur.com/a/lb1iAKI

    The morphs are there just t test the bends. They are by no means meant to be used as is.

  • Leonides02Leonides02 Posts: 1,336

    This continues to be extremely impressive.

  • PadonePadone Posts: 2,507

    When testing your rig you sometimes tend to isolate the test to one single bone, this leads to unrealistic results since most often adjacent bones and muscles work together. For example the wrist rotations always start from the elbow while at the start of your video this seems not affected. Also I can't understand why the elbow rotations affect the biceb. I see that you don't use the clavicles when bending the arms. Overall the arms movements always start from the clavicle. The pectoral muscles shouldn't be inflated by the arms movements, they rather extend and compress. It seems sometime the pelvis bone is deformed by the leg movements, that would be physically impossible since it's a bone. There is also some geometry penetration when bending arms and legs. The knees need some more attention.

    My overall impression is that you use much less bones than it's needed to mimic the real bones and muscles. I do like very much your topology, though I still believe it doesn't fit a general purpose figure. Also I fear daz studio is not an ideal platform for realistic rigs. You would get better and faster results using bendy bones in blender.

  • Faux2DFaux2D Posts: 431
    Padone said:

    When testing your rig you sometimes tend to isolate the test to one single bone, this leads to unrealistic results since most often adjacent bones and muscles work together. For example the wrist rotations always start from the elbow while at the start of your video this seems not affected. Also I can't understand why the elbow rotations affect the biceb. I see that you don't use the clavicles when bending the arms. Overall the arms movements always start from the clavicle. The pectoral muscles shouldn't be inflated by the arms movements, they rather extend and compress. It seems sometime the pelvis bone is deformed by the leg movements, that would be physically impossible since it's a bone. There is also some geometry penetration when bending arms and legs. The knees need some more attention.

    My overall impression is that you use much less bones than it's needed to mimic the real bones and muscles. I do like very much your topology, though I still believe it doesn't fit a general purpose figure. Also I fear daz studio is not an ideal platform for realistic rigs. You would get better and faster results using bendy bones in blender.

    I isolate to showcase, like I've said, each bone. The video does not show any wrist rotation from the hand only because wrist rotation is solely forearm dependent. Wrist rotation affects the bicep because wrist rotation affects the bicep, this is just anatomy. There is no such thing as elbow rotation. The pectoral's role is to move the arm, saying it should not be affected by arm movement is absurd. The video shows the arm bends, then the clavicle bends, then the clavicle+arm combo bends, then the wrist+forearm+arm+clavicle combo bends. The rig is in real-time so talking about "faster reults" just shows you don't really understand what you're looking at. Maybe have a second watch?

  • wolf359wolf359 Posts: 3,373
    @Pandone, The OP has already stated (in his other thread), that this is a stylized figure ,built to a certain asthetic, for his own usage ...... it will never be available to the "general purpose" Daz users.
  • PadonePadone Posts: 2,507

    Wrist rotation affects the bicep because wrist rotation affects the bicep, this is just anatomy .. The pectoral's role is to move the arm, saying it should not be affected by arm movement is absurd .. The rig is in real-time so talking about "faster reults" just shows you don't really understand what you're looking at.

    As for faster results I was talking about the time you need to build the rig, since bendy bones are much more suited to the task. As for the bicep and pectoral muscles I was just meaning that they don't inflate unless you have to lift some weight, so I'd rather extend and compress without inflating too much, but I also guess this is a matter of design since your specific character seems to have a good muscular mass overall.

  • Faux2DFaux2D Posts: 431

    Link to facial movement: https://imgur.com/a/lIaNqeD

    Everything is bone-baased so no blendshapes/morphtargets. The face has 150+ bones and can easily be controlled through the PowerPose tool. The movement is FACS based with added fine-control for each individual element.

    The PowerPose was incredibly difficult to customize. I made another thread about it asking for help but eventually I got it working with no hick-ups. Very useful tool though clearly not meant for custom figures.

    Features like eyebrows (and facial hair for the male version) will be added after I complete the figure and they will attach like a conforming garment. Everything is created with the intention of it being higly customizable afterwards, which is why a bone-driven facial system is imperative. Changing the face through a morph will also cause the facial previous expression-morphs to look wonky. But if it's bone-driven, using a face-morph + the "adjust rigging to shape" feature will transfer the facial control properly to a new character. 

  • Link to facial movement: https://imgur.com/a/lIaNqeD

    Everything is bone-baased so no blendshapes/morphtargets. The face has 150+ bones and can easily be controlled through the PowerPose tool. The movement is FACS based with added fine-control for each individual element.

    The PowerPose was incredibly difficult to customize. I made another thread about it asking for help but eventually I got it working with no hick-ups. Very useful tool though clearly not meant for custom figures.

    It is designed to support any figure, though obviously custom figures may require somethng other than the default template.

    Features like eyebrows (and facial hair for the male version) will be added after I complete the figure and they will attach like a conforming garment. Everything is created with the intention of it being higly customizable afterwards, which is why a bone-driven facial system is imperative. Changing the face through a morph will also cause the facial previous expression-morphs to look wonky. But if it's bone-driven, using a face-morph + the "adjust rigging to shape" feature will transfer the facial control properly to a new character. 

     

  • Faux2DFaux2D Posts: 431

    Link to facial movement: https://imgur.com/a/lIaNqeD

    Everything is bone-baased so no blendshapes/morphtargets. The face has 150+ bones and can easily be controlled through the PowerPose tool. The movement is FACS based with added fine-control for each individual element.

    The PowerPose was incredibly difficult to customize. I made another thread about it asking for help but eventually I got it working with no hick-ups. Very useful tool though clearly not meant for custom figures.

    It is designed to support any figure, though obviously custom figures may require somethng other than the default template.

    Features like eyebrows (and facial hair for the male version) will be added after I complete the figure and they will attach like a conforming garment. Everything is created with the intention of it being higly customizable afterwards, which is why a bone-driven facial system is imperative. Changing the face through a morph will also cause the facial previous expression-morphs to look wonky. But if it's bone-driven, using a face-morph + the "adjust rigging to shape" feature will transfer the facial control properly to a new character. 

     

    It's with the customization that I had trouble with. I figured out workarounds through trial and error. One bug that I could not get rid of was that whenever I added a new node point with the word "Eye" in it makes the node unfunctional, uneditable, and hidden if not in "Edit Mode". Another bug would be that if I deleted a node point then clicked within the PowerPose tab Daz would crash. Deleteting templates within Daz also does not work.

  • Faux2DFaux2D Posts: 431

    Male version with clavicle-arm-forearm movement: https://imgur.com/a/0IFJIHc

    The muscle action is more apparent on a muscular character and the previous versions had some glaring mistakes I did not notice. Now they're fixed.

    Used the Adjust Rigging to Shape tool to transfer the skeleton over. Absolutely fantastic tool.

  • PadonePadone Posts: 2,507

    That's very good indeed. I may be wrong but the scapulas seem to lack some definition especially for retraction, that may be needed for less muscular characters.

  • Faux2DFaux2D Posts: 431
    Padone said:

    That's very good indeed. I may be wrong but the scapulas seem to lack some definition especially for retraction, that may be needed for less muscular characters.

    Modified the scapula movement a little. It is indeed more visible in the female character because of lack of muscle mass: https://imgur.com/a/cEvnEvN

    The traps cannot be adjusted because the Normal Map Symmetry tool severely messes up on the upper body and I can't make the adjustement otherwise. I hope they fix it in the upcoming version.

    Modified the knee joint a lot. Now everything looks more natural with the calf muscles even squishing to some extent. All done with zero morph targets/blendshapes.

  • PadonePadone Posts: 2,507

    The knees are much better now. Personally I can't find noticeable issues anymore from what is visible in the videos. As for the normal maps if you can explain the issue better may be someone could help.

  • Faux2DFaux2D Posts: 431

    More leg bends: https://imgur.com/a/fDxLbRh

    The issue with the Weight Map Symmetry (called it accidentally Normal Map) is that it copies certain maps to non symetrical bones. It just does this without any rhyme or reason. There another thread about this exact issue and there doesn't seem to be a fix to it. I hope they resolve it in the upcoming version. 

  • SorelSorel Posts: 1,348
    This looks fantastic as usual.
  • Faux2DFaux2D Posts: 431

    Two poses, 360 view: https://imgur.com/a/C2N13Kh

    Noticed some issues with the finger joints while doing this. I did them like any other rigged figure out there but in reality they move more like the knee joint so they need rethinking.

  • Not sure what your plan for the mammaries is, but these are seriously gorgeous!  I almost wish I had some project to buy them for already.

  • Faux2DFaux2D Posts: 431

    Not sure what your plan for the mammaries is, but these are seriously gorgeous!  I almost wish I had some project to buy them for already.

    It morphs into the male version hence why no breasts. They will be added later after I figure out how I'll be shading the scene, either as a geograft or just an attached figure. Same goes for other features like eyebrows and facial hair.

  • SigurdSigurd Posts: 1,008

    Still in awe.

  • Faux2DFaux2D Posts: 431

    A test render.

    3Delight + OpenGL + Photoshop.

    gdhd.jpg
    1500 x 1000 - 416K
  • nonesuch00nonesuch00 Posts: 16,427
    edited January 2020

    Wow, all done with bones in self-made Blender models you imported and weight-painted in DS? 

    Your render reminds me of the Betty Davis character in the movie "Whatever Happened to Baby Jane?"

    Post edited by nonesuch00 on
  • Faux2DFaux2D Posts: 431

    Wow, all done with bones in self-made Blender models you imported and weight-painted in DS? 

    Yes, except the model was created in Modo and ZBrush.

  • Faux2DFaux2D Posts: 431

    more tests

    htfjru.jpg
    1500 x 1000 - 471K
    test.png
    720 x 639 - 379K
  • marblemarble Posts: 6,539
    edited January 2020

    More leg bends: https://imgur.com/a/fDxLbRh

    The issue with the Weight Map Symmetry (called it accidentally Normal Map) is that it copies certain maps to non symetrical bones. It just does this without any rhyme or reason. There another thread about this exact issue and there doesn't seem to be a fix to it. I hope they resolve it in the upcoming version. 

    Looking at these leg bends, I think that there is an issue with the back of the thigh (lower hamstring area) and also the top-front of the thigh where it meets the groin. It looks to me that the bends create odd-looking craters or depressions in the flesh/musculature. I have no knowledge of anatomy so this might be true to life but it looks odd to me.

    Post edited by marble on
  • Faux2DFaux2D Posts: 431
    marble said:

    More leg bends: https://imgur.com/a/fDxLbRh

    The issue with the Weight Map Symmetry (called it accidentally Normal Map) is that it copies certain maps to non symetrical bones. It just does this without any rhyme or reason. There another thread about this exact issue and there doesn't seem to be a fix to it. I hope they resolve it in the upcoming version. 

    Looking at these leg bends, I think that there is an issue with the back of the thigh (lower hamstring area) and also the top-front of the thigh where it meets the groin. It looks to me that the bends create odd-looking craters or depressions in the flesh/musculature. I have no knowledge of anatomy so this might be true to life but it looks odd to me.

    I know what you mean about the top front area. It did look very weird but luckily I managed to fix it. See the crouching pose here for a more recent update on the bends: https://imgur.com/a/C2N13Kh

    What do you mean about the hamstring area exactly? Looking at it now it does seem to contract too much too soon, I'll fix it later on.

    Or are you talking about hows it look for when the shin is fully flexed? The reason for this was that all models I've seen mess this bend and have the calf geometry clip through the hamstring geometry. I tried to give it as much of a realistic squished look as I could.

     

  • marblemarble Posts: 6,539
    edited January 2020
    marble said:

    More leg bends: https://imgur.com/a/fDxLbRh

    The issue with the Weight Map Symmetry (called it accidentally Normal Map) is that it copies certain maps to non symetrical bones. It just does this without any rhyme or reason. There another thread about this exact issue and there doesn't seem to be a fix to it. I hope they resolve it in the upcoming version. 

    Looking at these leg bends, I think that there is an issue with the back of the thigh (lower hamstring area) and also the top-front of the thigh where it meets the groin. It looks to me that the bends create odd-looking craters or depressions in the flesh/musculature. I have no knowledge of anatomy so this might be true to life but it looks odd to me.

    I know what you mean about the top front area. It did look very weird but luckily I managed to fix it. See the crouching pose here for a more recent update on the bends: https://imgur.com/a/C2N13Kh

    What do you mean about the hamstring area exactly? Looking at it now it does seem to contract too much too soon, I'll fix it later on.

    Or are you talking about hows it look for when the shin is fully flexed? The reason for this was that all models I've seen mess this bend and have the calf geometry clip through the hamstring geometry. I tried to give it as much of a realistic squished look as I could.

     

    I'm not sure whether this snip captures exactly what I mean but I have highlighted the area with the red marker. In motion, it almost looks like the back of the thigh is caving in before the calf muscle reaches it. Difficult to explain in words but I think the snapshot might give you some idea.

     

    Otherwise, in the later clip it looks like you have greatly improved the top thigh issue although you might like to tweak it a little. Looking at the Left thigh as you pan around the figure, there's a flattened area (top, inside thigh) leading to a pronounced and quite sharp ridge. I'm really sorry to appear so critical of something I wouldn't have a hope of emulating, so I am in awe of what you have achieved.

    hamstring.png
    430 x 502 - 203K
    thigh.png
    315 x 400 - 107K
    Post edited by marble on
  • Faux2DFaux2D Posts: 431
    marble said:
    marble said:

    More leg bends: https://imgur.com/a/fDxLbRh

    The issue with the Weight Map Symmetry (called it accidentally Normal Map) is that it copies certain maps to non symetrical bones. It just does this without any rhyme or reason. There another thread about this exact issue and there doesn't seem to be a fix to it. I hope they resolve it in the upcoming version. 

    Looking at these leg bends, I think that there is an issue with the back of the thigh (lower hamstring area) and also the top-front of the thigh where it meets the groin. It looks to me that the bends create odd-looking craters or depressions in the flesh/musculature. I have no knowledge of anatomy so this might be true to life but it looks odd to me.

    I know what you mean about the top front area. It did look very weird but luckily I managed to fix it. See the crouching pose here for a more recent update on the bends: https://imgur.com/a/C2N13Kh

    What do you mean about the hamstring area exactly? Looking at it now it does seem to contract too much too soon, I'll fix it later on.

    Or are you talking about hows it look for when the shin is fully flexed? The reason for this was that all models I've seen mess this bend and have the calf geometry clip through the hamstring geometry. I tried to give it as much of a realistic squished look as I could.

     

    I'm not sure whether this snip captures exactly what I mean but I have highlighted the area with the red marker. In motion, it almost looks like the back of the thigh is caving in before the calf muscle reaches it. Difficult to explain in words but I think the snapshot might give you some idea.

     

    Otherwise, in the later clip it looks like you have greatly improved the top thigh issue although you might like to tweak it a little. Looking at the Left thigh as you pan around the figure, there's a flattened area (top, inside thigh) leading to a pronounced and quite sharp ridge. I'm really sorry to appear so critical of something I wouldn't have a hope of emulating, so I am in awe of what you have achieved.

    Will change the hamstring squish thing. It was an oversight on my part.

    The ridge is the Sartoris muscle which travels from the pelvis (anterior superior iliac spine) then twists around the inside of the thigh right down to the top interior shin area at its insertion point. When modelling the base figure I made each muscle pop-out. In some people it's flat and thin, in others it's large and bulky, just anatomical variation.

  • Faux2DFaux2D Posts: 431

    Here is the improved version: https://imgur.com/a/PVj2Hfy

  • marblemarble Posts: 6,539

    Here is the improved version: https://imgur.com/a/PVj2Hfy

    Much better. One more suggestion and please tell me to stop if you wish although it is nearly right now in my eyes.. I just think that the glute, in this latest animation, should deform more as the leg comes up.. to me it looks like it keeps its circular outline. 
     

Sign In or Register to comment.